What documents for transferring ownership in U.K.

[ash2020]

I'm hanging up my sailing boots for a while. We're moving house and for the next couple of years will probably be doing lots of building work etc. So I'm not able to keep my sailing boat.

Having had little luck in selling, I'm about to do a straight swap for a lovely little RIB and motor.

As no money will be changing hands, how to I do a Bill of Sale that will satisfy everyone in terms of ownership and especially insurance companies. How will I give them a value for insurance.

I seem to remember when buying the boat there was some nonsense about paying £1 and then transferring 64 / 64ths.

Thanks.

 

[wonkywinch]

Couldn't you do two bills of sale with identical amounts so no money changes hands but the "value" of each vessel is preserved on paper?

 

[wrr]

The RYA website should have drafts bills of sale. Basically, each party needs to assure the other that the boat is free of all charges etc., what equipment is included and that they are the sole owners. The sum can then be £1 and other considerations. However, insurers may need a valuation.

 

[Buck Turgidson]

Isn’t the traditional wording something like 1 pound and other considerations?

Edit: beaten to it by seconds

 

[Tranona]

The BoS is to transfer title. It does not need to show a value at all, although the £1 and other considerations phrase is commonly used because there is a box for it on the MCA form. It is the contract between buyer and seller that records the agreed price - and a contract requires evidence of "consideration" which does not necessarily have to be money. For example a swap as in this transaction would be seen as consideration.

Does not help with value for insurance, but for this type of low value boat suggest a self declaration of a reasonable amount (£5k?) would be acceptable. Proposal forms only ask what you paid for the boat - formal valuations tend only to be required if you increase the value as is happening more often now.

You could agree with the other party on a value and put it on both Bills of Sale, or more simply have a simple written contract between you for the swap with the agreed value included.

 

[ash2020]

Couldn't you do two bills of sale with identical amounts so no money changes hands but the "value" of each vessel is preserved on paper?

I did think of that and I guess it's not dishonest.

 

[ash2020]

The RYA website should have drafts bills of sale. Basically, each party needs to assure the other that the boat is free of all charges etc., what equipment is included and that they are the sole owners. The sum can then be £1 and other considerations. However, insurers may need a valuation.

Yes, I believe that was on the previous BOS. Unfortunately I'm not an RYA member so can't get them.

 

[ash2020]

The BoS is to transfer title. It does not need to show a value at all, although the £1 and other considerations phrase is commonly used because there is a box for it on the MCA form. It is the contract between buyer and seller that records the agreed price - and a contract requires evidence of "consideration" which does not necessarily have to be money. For example a swap as in this transaction would be seen as consideration.

Does not help with value for insurance, but for this type of low value boat suggest a self declaration of a reasonable amount (£5k?) would be acceptable. Proposal forms only ask what you paid for the boat - formal valuations tend only to be required if you increase the value as is happening more often now.

You could agree with the other party on a value and put it on both Bills of Sale, or more simply have a simple written contract between you for the swap with the agreed value included.

I think that's the way to go. Thanks.

 

[Irish Rover]

I think that's the way to go. Thanks.

Bill of sale (MSF 4705)

 

[jbweston]

If neither of the boats is registered, there is no legal requirement (in England and Wales) for any paperwork. The boats are 'chattels' - moveable personal property. Ownership is transferred at the moment you agree it's to be transferred, which is usually when the contract is made. In that sense in law there is no difference between buying a boat, a pair of socks or a lawnmower.

An exception would be if for some reason the seller is registered for VAT and VAT has to be charged on the sale, so the usual VAT paperwork requirements would apply. Which I guess is not the case here.

Vessels on the SSR register are no exception. It's formal registration as a British vessel (known as 'part 1 registration' for pleasure vessels) that brings legal requirements for documentation and official registration of the transfer of ownerhip.

However, even though the law allows transfer of ownership without documents, you might prefer to have something signed by the person you're buying from to evidence the purchase. A simple handwritten receipt might be enough for your purposes, or you could add in other things such as promises that nothing is owed to anyone on the boat, that the buyer is buying 'as is', or whatever you want really. If you want to add lots of promises and terms then it will be easier to use a standard form such as the RYA or BMF form of contract for the sale of a secondhand boat.

A Bill of Sale only 'transfers title' - that is transfers ownership - if that's you both agree that the signing of the bill of sale, or the handing over of the bill, is to be the time when title passes.

In other countries the law may well be different.

 

[Refueler]

I have never been asked for Bill of Sale or proof of ownership for any boat I insured in UK - all were SSR ... it was only when I bought my latest boat that I was asked for the BoS .....
My other boat which I brought here from UK - even that was never asked for - even after change to LV registry.

 

[Refueler]

If neither of the boats is registered, there is no legal requirement (in England and Wales) for any paperwork. The boats are 'chattels' - moveable personal property. Ownership is transferred at the moment you agree it's to be transferred, which is usually when the contract is made. In that sense in law there is no difference between buying a boat, a pair of socks or a lawnmower.

An exception would be if for some reason the seller is registered for VAT and VAT has to be charged on the sale, so the usual VAT paperwork requirements would apply. Which I guess is not the case here.

Vessels on the SSR register are no exception. It's formal registration as a British vessel (known as 'part 1 registration' for pleasure vessels) that brings legal requirements for documentation and official registration of the transfer of ownerhip.

However, even though the law allows transfer of ownership without documents, you might prefer to have something signed by the person you're buying from to evidence the purchase. A simple handwritten receipt might be enough for your purposes, or you could add in other things such as promises that nothing is owed to anyone on the boat, that the buyer is buying 'as is', or whatever you want really. If you want to add lots of promises and terms then it will be easier to use a standard form such as the RYA or BMF form of contract for the sale of a secondhand boat.

A Bill of Sale only 'transfers title' - that is transfers ownership - if that's you both agree that the signing of the bill of sale, or the handing over of the bill, is to be the time when title passes.

In other countries the law may well be different.

A breath of fresh air !!

 

[Tranona]

I have never been asked for Bill of Sale or proof of ownership for any boat I insured in UK - all were SSR ... it was only when I bought my latest boat that I was asked for the BoS .....
My other boat which I brought here from UK - even that was never asked for - even after change to LV registry.

SSR now requires evidence of ownership, usually a BoS ukshipregister.co.uk/registration/leisure/small-ships-register-part-3/ Although as stated it is not legally required, a proper paper trail of ownership is valuable when buying and selling, particularly with higher value boats. You are right, it is rarely asked for during ownership of the boat, although in our club a copy needs to be lodged to comply with the rule that only boats owned by club members can use the marina and moorings. Insurers don't ask for it (unless there is some doubt about ownership) as they are insuring you based on self declaration of ownership.

 

[Refueler]

That's interesting that SSR now asks evidence of ownership - especially that SSR does not actually confirm Ownership by person named.

I had 3 boats registered on SSR over here until they changed the rules - that applicant had to supply real evidence of UK residence - utility bills etc. Even with putting my Son on as joint owner, living in Portsmouth, was not enough as I was no longer resident in UK ... I had long discussion with Lady on the phone about it ...

 

[jbweston]

It can be very difficult to prove ownership of anything unless a sytem of registration exists to give conclusive evidence of title. Consider a painting or a car. I might produce a genuine receipt for for the purchase price signed by the person that sold it to me - or a bill of sale for that matter - but I could easily have sold it and taken the cash from my buyer before 'selling' it again to you - in fact pretending to sell something I no longer own.

In fact, my having a receipt or bill of sale doesn't prove that I was ever the owner. If the person I 'bought' the painting, car or boat from had stolen it, or once owned it but sold it elsewhere before I 'bought' it from him, it wasn't his to sell and however innocent and honest I am, whatver paperwork I have as evidence of my paying the price, I never owned it. I can try to sell it to you in all good faith and issue a bill of sale or whatever, but it doesn't become yours.

That's why there are formal registration systems in place for land and buildings, company shares and part 1 registered vessels. The owner is the person registered as owner whatever any other paperwork says.

In practice, all we can do where there is no formal system of registration of title is check the paperwork, try to work out if it's genuine, and decide whether to trust the seller. Who, we hope, was right to trust that the person he bought from had the right to sell.

Tranona's club can ask for whatever documents it wants to help it decide if the member owns the boat he's wanting to moor, and maybe it's wise for it to do so, but no documents are conclusive proof of ownership of an unregistered vessel.

In England and Wales that is.

 

[Tranona]

It can be very difficult to prove ownership of anything unless a sytem of registration exists to give conclusive evidence of title. Consider a painting or a car. I might produce a genuine receipt for for the purchase price signed by the person that sold it to me - or a bill of sale for that matter - but I could easily have sold it and taken the cash from my buyer before 'selling' it again to you - in fact pretending to sell something I no longer own.

In fact, my having a receipt or bill of sale doesn't prove that I was ever the owner. If the person I 'bought' the painting, car or boat from had stolen it, or once owned it but sold it elsewhere before I 'bought' it from him, it wasn't his to sell and however innocent and honest I am, whatver paperwork I have as evidence of my paying the price, I never owned it. I can try to sell it to you in all good faith and issue a bill of sale or whatever, but it doesn't become yours.

That's why there are formal registration systems in place for land and buildings, company shares and part 1 registered vessels. The owner is the person registered as owner whatever any other paperwork says.

In practice, all we can do where there is no formal system of registration of title is check the paperwork, try to work out if it's genuine, and decide whether to trust the seller. Who, we hope, was right to trust that the person he bought from had the right to sell.

Tranona's club can ask for whatever documents it wants to help it decide if the member owns the boat he's wanting to moor, and maybe it's wise for it to do so, but no documents are conclusive proof of ownership of an unregistered vessel.

In England and Wales that is.

Even Part 1 is not as secure as it used to be as they no longer require a trail back to new. The key thing about title is that it is unchallenged and a number of transfers of title through Bills of Sale is a reasonable indicator that the title is secure.

We had this debate when the system was introduced at the club and came to the conclusion (just as in the buying and selling of boats) it is the best we can expect. The rule was introduce because there had been cases of members who had a higher level of priority for berths "fronting" boats belonging to other members lower down the order, or claiming joint ownership to jump the queue. Even the possibility of shared ownership with non members. Once the "problem" boats had been dealt with the system works well