What do you want out of a blue water boat?

[Tim Good]

With an older boat and refit you get experience of every part of it so that when the inevitable faults occur you are already familiar with it and a solution is easier to find. If I was doing significant extended cruising I would want a boat that my hand had been all over.

Very true and by next year I hope to have had everything to bits and back together. I'm about 75% there now. At the same time I am building up the spares for every piece of equipment.

 

[Tim Good]

change is in the wind it will be for more of the same but bigger, probably the IP SP Cruiser Motor Sailer

To twist your words slightly... I genuinely believe that cruising will become more difficult in the future and the demand for more 'capable' older boats will increase.

The frequency of typhoons in the Pacific, movement of the Jetstream, El Nino events and a more unpredictable global weather system in general is set to make blue water cruising more problematic even with the latest technology and weather forecasting.

 

[Tranona]

I've been following this thread with some interest; while I have no plans to blue-water, it's nice to dream. The cost vs age argument on the type of boat design favoured is interesting but I don't think the affordability of older designs is the only factor. For example, a 20-year old Moody (going by current offerings on Apolloduck) will set you back as much as a new or nearly new BenJenBav. Are the former overpriced? Is there such sufficient market for older designed 'Blue water' boats? Would you buy a 20-25 year old boat instead of a newish boat for a cross-pond or cross Biscay trip to then cruise around the locale when you get there? Or are you going to be on permanent wanderlust?

Not sure where you get the idea that old Moodys are expensive. while the late models (1990's) are still asking up to £90k for up to 42', older boats are substantially lower. A 37/376 for example can be bought for as little as £40k for a usable example. If you do an analysis of asking prices you will find there is very little difference in % loss of value in mainstream boats - in other words the %age difference in price is similar to when they were new - boats that were cheaper to buy new are cheaper used.

A new AWB at 37' is in the range £130-150k (about the same as the last Moodys of that size in 2000!), but remember that a 15 year old boat is likely to need significant expenditure to keep it up to date.

Rather than asking the question what would people here choose, perhaps you should look at the choice that others make. Just as an example, 25% of the entrants of the last ARC used modern AWBs in sizes from 37-50' and a further 15% or so had catamarans, mostly from high volume production builders. Very few used boats of the type preferred by people here. Of course this may or may not be representative of the overall range of choices, but then neither might the small sample on this thread.

Despite what some might wish to think, the size of the budget has a big influence on the choice of boat. The range of choices available is very different if you only have £100k to spend than if you have £400k. It is fortunate for some that it is perfectly feasible to purchase a suitable boat for the lower amount - boats that only 30 years ago were the preserve of those who had the equivalent of the larger amount to spend. It will be the same in the future. New boats now will be the cheap used boats in 30 years time and people wanting to go cruising on a limited budget will be buying them.

 

[snowleopard]

It depends where you're going. If your target is high latitudes you'll need a very different boat from say a tropical circumnavigation.

Remember you'll spend up to 90% of your time stationary so livability in harbour is top of the list. A cozy narrow sea berth will be pretty hellish at anchor in the lee of St Lucia.

At sea, long periods rolling or heavily heeled will be pretty uncomfortable. The motion of a cat running down the trades is delightful but whatever you do the roll of a mono is going to be pretty miserable. Eric Hiscock commented something along the lines of 'The human body can become accustomed to most things but the rolling of a small boat at sea is probably an exception'.

Those dreaming of a long voyage generally think in terms of some special super-rugged boat. The reality is that most of the boats you meet along the way are standard production jobs built of GRP with normal scantlings.

 

[Neil]

Not sure where you get the idea that old Moodys are expensive. .

Well, I'm talking relatively expensive in comparison to a fairly new Bavaria, for example:

http://www.apolloduck.ie/feature.phtml?id=382629&fx=GBP#contact £81,220.50 Approx

http://www.apolloduck.ie/feature.phtml?id=446042 £90K

If, or when, I'm in a position to upgrade, I'd find it difficult to choose a 20 year old Moody over a 3 year old Bavaria on the basis of the Moody having a 'better' blue-water pedigree. Especially if the blue-water part was only to get to pleasant cruising grounds

 

[phanakapan]

Fwiw I circumnavigated in the following;
Van de stadt 'seal' 36 foot
Steel sloop with detachable fore stay, long fin keel, full skeg, Aries self steering. Bought for a figure which started with a 3......
Refitted saloon and galley with my own fair hands- to a basic but workable standard. Re- plumbed heads and galley with foot pumps.
Added integrated plotter radar dsc VHF and AiS., SSB radio, satellite phone ( old second hand), extendable whisker pole, made good lee cloths, eberspacher, secure stowage, made my stack pack. Bought new liferaft and small dinghy, solar panels, batteries.
Did NOT have hot water, water maker, a useable fridge, a Bimini that we could sail with, large tankage, cockpit dining,
Single most important thing? Aries self steering.
Would like if / when we go again?
Better arrangement for the solar panels, better protection from the sun while sailing. A new (but still small) fridge.

 

[KINGFISHER 9]

I always fancied one of those lumbering great Hans Christians .... slow as hell but built like the proverbial .... the traditional double ended looking one, not the modern one. 43ft LOD and 50ft odd overall, encapsulated keel and a nice safe cockpit.

 

[geem]

It depends where you're going. If your target is high latitudes you'll need a very different boat from say a tropical circumnavigation.

Remember you'll spend up to 90% of your time stationary so livability in harbour is top of the list. A cozy narrow sea berth will be pretty hellish at anchor in the lee of St Lucia.

At sea, long periods rolling or heavily heeled will be pretty uncomfortable. The motion of a cat running down the trades is delightful but whatever you do the roll of a mono is going to be pretty miserable. Eric Hiscock commented something along the lines of 'The human body can become accustomed to most things but the rolling of a small boat at sea is probably an exception'.

Those dreaming of a long voyage generally think in terms of some special super-rugged boat. The reality is that most of the boats you meet along the way are standard production jobs built of GRP with normal scantlings.

Choosing a good blue water boat should give good sea berths and good accommodation at anchor. At 44/45 ft there should be plenty of space for both.
I am not a fan of steel boats. The owners of such boats that we have met blue water sailing generally seem to move on to GRP as their next boat. Maintenance of steel is problematic and time consuming.
Cats are great down wind I would agree. Rolling in a mono down wind is not great but choice of mono can influence this motion to the point that you can manage. The flip side is going up wind in a cat is not without its challenges! Three weeks to windward in a cat is still firmly etched on my memory.
I don't disagree that most boats are similarly built but hull design can make the difference between comfortable and miserable. Motion at anchor is something that many people don't think about. You spend a lot of time at anchor in the Caribbean. The lighter displacement boats around us can bounce around alarmingly at anchor or spend the whole night sailing around their anchors when it is breezy.
Everything in boat choice is a compromise but experience tends to lean you towards a certain type of boat IMHO

 

[RupertW]

The flip side is going up wind in a cat is not without its challenges! Three weeks to windward in a cat is still firmly etched on my memory.

I'm still intrigued by this comment. Although my longest experience of a continous beat in a cat was about 3 days my memory of it is a sense of disbelief that instead of trying to live and cook leaning over on our sides we we almost completely upright. Losing 10 or 15 miles a day due to the tacking angle was minor in comparison and it may have been less than that as our speed through the water was faster than most monohulls I have sailed. Close reaching was uncomfortable a couple of times in the cross-Atlantic when we went too fast for comfort in lumpy cross waves and the lurching moment wasn't pleasant - but a little reefing solved that until we were back in regular waves.

 

[rotrax]

Everything in boat choice is a compromise but experience tends to lean you towards a certain type of boat IMHO

Very true-as was Snowleopard's point about time alongside/on the hook compared to passage making.

Before our IP 350 we had a Gibsea 96. Only 1.17 metres shorter and .6 metre less beam, but about half the weight.

Heavy weather behavior and feel was totally different.

I wonder why......................

 

[Wansworth]

It depends where you're going. If your target is high latitudes you'll need a very different boat from say a tropical circumnavigation.

Remember you'll spend up to 90% of your time stationary so livability in harbour is top of the list. A cozy narrow sea berth will be pretty hellish at anchor in the lee of St Lucia.

At sea, long periods rolling or heavily heeled will be pretty uncomfortable. The motion of a cat running down the trades is delightful but whatever you do the roll of a mono is going to be pretty miserable. Eric Hiscock commented something along the lines of 'The human body can become accustomed to most things but the rolling of a small boat at sea is probably an exception'.

Those dreaming of a long voyage generally think in terms of some special super-rugged boat. The reality is that most of the boats you meet along the way are standard production jobs built of GRP with normal scantlings.

...somewhereInrecall Hiscock writing that his friends on Moonraker,Dr Pye and wife always seemed to be fresher and more relaxed after sailing in company as their old fishing boat only rolled a bit whilst Wanderer rolled to windward and to leeward.Incessant rolling seems to be ignored in most accounts of trade wind sailing.

 

[geem]

I'm still intrigued by this comment. Although my longest experience of a continous beat in a cat was about 3 days my memory of it is a sense of disbelief that instead of trying to live and cook leaning over on our sides we we almost completely upright. Losing 10 or 15 miles a day due to the tacking angle was minor in comparison and it may have been less than that as our speed through the water was faster than most monohulls I have sailed. Close reaching was uncomfortable a couple of times in the cross-Atlantic when we went too fast for comfort in lumpy cross waves and the lurching moment wasn't pleasant - but a little reefing solved that until we were back in regular waves.

The problem we experienced was light head winds circa 5 knots and swell. The swell would knock the wind out of our sails so it was impossible to sail. This lasted a week. The next week was spent motor sailing until we got low on fuel and went along side a ship for diesel. That was interesting. The last few days we had more favourable winds but still on the nose. The constant slamming broke the babystay so I had to go up the mast a rig a new one. The last day into Horta we got wind from behind! We hoisted the spinnaker and had the best sail of the trip.
I am sure if we had been in a larger cat this may not have been the case. We met a French guy in a nice Outremer. He was 5 days faster than us but his cat was from the opposite end of the spectrum to ours. Even he complained about the slamming and he had broken his forestay attachment to the bridle he was also jury rigged when he arrived at Horta. He also complained about the slamming to windward.
Every boat is a compromise but for us the inability of a small cat (37ft) to carry enough gear without compromising safety and speed pushed us towards a monohull for long distance sailing. I am not a fan of the floating condominiums passing as catamarans used so successfully for charter in the Caribbean. Size for size we can out pace a similar sized Lagoon on every point of sail except straight down wind where a cat will be a far nicer place than a mono every time. IMHO

 

[Monique]

An Amel Super Maramu

 

[dslittle]

To twist your words slightly... I genuinely believe that cruising will become more difficult in the future

I agree, mainly due to the reduction in places that you can cruise to. The number of anchorages that are bring lost to moorings and Marinas might make a fin keel that can be reversed in a Marina attractive...

 

[Koeketiene]

I got my Oceanlord (which was bought with blue water cruising in mind) relatively cheaply (although prices have dropped a lot since then) but even after re-rigging, re-engining an electronics upgrade and brand new sails it was still less than half what I would have had to pay for a new AWB of similar size.

+1 :encouragement:

Same experience here.

 

[KellysEye]

>An Amel Super Maramu

I've been on one of those, fake teak decks, plastic interior and not fast for it's size, I thought it was horrible.

 

[tcm]

Any blue water boat I bought would also have to be good for living on and the destinations at the end as I would expect the blue water part to be a smallish part of the whole thing.

I've already sailed on my ideal blue water boat on a long passage and it wasn't one I think I'll be able to afford in a hurry even if old.
Something which is:
Fast
Stable downwind - no rolling at sea or anchor
Large and comfortable to live on - if it looks after the crew we will make difficult decisions better
Easy to cook on in rough weather
Ok upwind - if it beats at 50 degrees at 6 knots plus that will do me
Turns on a sixpence in harbour
Can sit inside in horrible weather and steer with full visibilty from the cabin via autopilot

But I think I will happily put up with our existing ex-charter AWB which is not nearly as fast, does roll a bit but goes upwind fine and fortunately isn't a slammer, and most importantly for doesn't cost as much to moor as the catamaran I would most like.

did you expand on the catamaran further along the thread ? ...

 

[tcm]

Agree-but I would wouldnt I!

Just back in Gosport after two seasons away, visiting France, Channel Islands, Ireland-N&S-Scotland and the IOM. Sailed-or motorsailed-about 3000 NM. Longest passage 200 NM, Arklow to Newlyn.

I will post a little about our trip in a New Post soon, but can confirm that our 16 year old Island Packet 350 was just about right. Safe and steady in heavy weather, brilliant on the hook or alongside, good fuel and water tankage and well sorted layout for a retired couple with physical limitations.

If we keep her, a matter of discussion with First Mate at the moment-another IP is attractive-good heating will be a requirement.

To plagarise Mark Twain " The coldest winter I ever spent was summer in the Clyde! "

We have lived on Jess for two four month periods and find her a really good compromise.

She is not perfect-but then what sailing boat is.......................

Head now below parapet!

Very good .... but none of that trip was "Blue Water"

 

[rotrax]

Very good .... but none of that trip was "Blue Water"

Perhaps not, but for First Mate and I in only our 12th sailing season it was the most adventurous trip so far. As ORF's ( Old Retired f***ers) we thought we did OK.

Getting back to the boat though-Island Packets are rightly described as "Americas favourite cruising yacht " and are more than suitable for real blue water passage making.

Unless you know different............................

 

[capnsensible]

For those on a budget like me, please be assured that the 4 Atlantic crossings I have done on our 1977 Moody 33 were more comfortable than the 6 others I did delivering more modern yachts!

:encouragement: