What a shame

[flaming]

Well, scale is to some extent a separate issue, and its more a socioeconomic than a technical one. Bigger boats are aspirational status symbols, and bigger old boats are not.

Yes, but small boats are not getting made now, so the 30/40 year old boats in even 20 years time will not be 25 foot boats, they'll be 35 foot fin keelers. Which of course are not boats you can leave on a half tide mooring, or even trailer home to work on for years.
The problem is going to get a whole lot worse.

 

[RogerJolly]

There was a guy on here a good few years ago, his name was Roger something and he was restoring his dads Centaur. He had a blog detailing the work. He was a real craftsman, I think a cabinetmaker by trade. I followed his blog with admiration.

To cut a long story short, a genuinely skilled and motivated person, with free storage at home and after a good few years of work he chainsawed it and sent it away in a skip.

Point being, once a boat has deteriorated past a certain point, unless you have the wherewithal and inclination to throw a sh1t ton of money at it, far in excess of any restored value, there is no way back.

It's hard to accept that - hence the clutter in yards and boats left to rot on moorings.

Sadly a blog on the chainsawing might be more useful - best tools to use, temporary support for keels etc.

Has anyone's club ever organised a demolition party? Don't think our's has, despite a good proportion of the yard being occupied by (ostensibly) abandoned wrecks.

Guess health and safety is a bit part of it - going to be lots of potential for limbs to be chainsawed off
and feet crushed under falling keels.

 

[ducked]

Yes, but small boats are not getting made now, so the 30/40 year old boats in even 20 years time will not be 25 foot boats, they'll be 35 foot fin keelers. Which of course are not boats you can leave on a half tide mooring, or even trailer home to work on for years.
The problem is going to get a whole lot worse.

Well true, but that could be partly addressed by preserving the existing 25 foot boats, and scrapping the surplus 35 foot fin keelers, so the 30/40 year old boats (Bit young surely? Think mine is about 55) in 20 years time will be 60 year old boats.(80 year old boats) and we'll learn what happens to really old FRP.

Which is, I think, pretty much where we came in.

 

[flaming]

Well true, but that could be partly addressed by preserving the existing 25 foot boats, and scrapping the surplus 35 foot fin keelers, so the 30/40 year old boats (Bit young surely? Think mine is about 55) in 20 years time will be 60 year old boats.(80 year old boats) and we'll learn what happens to really old FRP.

Which is, I think, pretty much where we came in.

All of that presupposes owners for all those 25 foot 70 year old boats.

When all the evidence of the marine industry is that ownership is falling is number and rising in average age of owner, and average size of boat. A program of encouraging young(ish) people to renovate small old boats is a seriously uphill task.

Couple that with increasing willingness for boatyards and clubs to deal with abandoned wrecks by taking title in lieu of unpaid bills and scrapping them, and the supply of small boats is going to dwindle.

 

[fredrussell]

For anyone that is interested, there's a FB group "Sitting there rotting in a boatyard" where a lot of UK based project boats are offered free/for a nominal fee…

I always assumed that FB group title referred to the people that frequent boatyards, not the boats themselves???

 

[Neeves]

All of that presupposes owners for all those 25 foot 70 year old boats.

When all the evidence of the marine industry is that ownership is falling is number and rising in average age of owner, and average size of boat. A program of encouraging young(ish) people to renovate small old boats is a seriously uphill task.

Couple that with increasing willingness for boatyards and clubs to deal with abandoned wrecks by taking title in lieu of unpaid bills and scrapping them, and the supply of small boats is going to dwindle.

I cannot argue with your post, owners are getting older and yachts bigger - without a change this seems to be the death knell of the leisure marine industry - there is a decline in youngsters to become the future, even older, owners.

I don't see the marine industry addressing the reality - go to a boat show and there are no small yachts - small yachts are now 35' long. In 20 years time - if this model is correct the 'small boat' will be 40'. Is the industry suggesting that people joining the pastime are going to 'start' with 40' yachts (I am aware this is happening in part already ).

Jonathan

 

[Neeves]

Sadly a blog on the chainsawing might be more useful - best tools to use, temporary support for keels etc.

Has anyone's club ever organised a demolition party? Don't think our's has, despite a good proportion of the yard being occupied by (ostensibly) abandoned wrecks.

Guess health and safety is a bit part of it - going to be lots of potential for limbs to be chainsawed off
and feet crushed under falling keels.

Asbestosis - a defined disease caused by ingestion of a fibrous mineral, a similar disease exists for silica (quartz) and maybe talc. Oddly Australia has only recently restricted use of Ceasar (quartz) stone. And we going to chop up fibre glass with chain saws.

Jonathan

 

[flaming]

I don't see the marine industry addressing the reality - go to a boat show and there are no small yachts - small yachts are now 35' long. In 20 years time - if this model is correct the 'small boat' will be 40'. Is the industry suggesting that people joining the pastime are going to 'start' with 40' yachts (I am aware this is happening in part already ).

Jonathan

Actually, I think you're wrong there. I was at Boot last week. There were a number of exciting, practical, fast cruisers in the 26-30 foot space. One of them, the new Beneteau first 30, was especially interesting in that the entire design and build program started with the selling price of 100k Euros. And whilst that number rose slightly, they're still selling this year for a tax paid, on the water with sails and electronics etc price of 140k Euros. They've already taken deposits for 50, which is their entire production run for 2025.

The difference is that where small cruising boats are bought in reasonable numbers in mainland Europe, they aren't in the UK. I understand that 1 of those 50 boats has been allocated to the UK,

Why UK buyers aren't buying new small boats is another question entirely.

 

[ylop]

I cannot argue with your post, owners are getting older and yachts bigger - without a change this seems to be the death knell of the leisure marine industry - there is a decline in youngsters to become the future, even older, owners.

I don't see the marine industry addressing the reality - go to a boat show and there are no small yachts - small yachts are now 35' long. In 20 years time - if this model is correct the 'small boat' will be 40'. Is the industry suggesting that people joining the pastime are going to 'start' with 40' yachts (I am aware this is happening in part already ).

Jonathan

Actually, I think you're wrong there. I was at Boot last week. There were a number of exciting, practical, fast cruisers in the 26-30 foot space. One of them, the new Beneteau first 30, was especially interesting in that the entire design and build program started with the selling price of 100k Euros. And whilst that number rose slightly, they're still selling this year for a tax paid, on the water with sails and electronics etc price of 140k Euros. They've already taken deposits for 50, which is their entire production run for 2025.

The difference is that where small cruising boats are bought in reasonable numbers in mainland Europe, they aren't in the UK. I understand that 1 of those 50 boats has been allocated to the UK,

Why UK buyers aren't buying new small boats is another question entirely.

I suspect the average new boat buyer in the UK is about retirement age and is funding from a lump sum, either a pension or inheritance. Younger people with surplus cash can easily charter with none of the hassle of ownership.

 

[flaming]

I suspect the average new boat buyer in the UK is about retirement age and is funding from a lump sum, either a pension or inheritance. Younger people with surplus cash can easily charter with none of the hassle of ownership.

But why is that different in France or Germany?

 

[RunAgroundHard]

… Why UK buyers aren't buying new small boats is another question entirely.

I think this will change, especially with the retiring GenZ, many of whom could afford such a price as a retirement activity. Having said that, those I know who sail in this space, have bought Sunsail packages and sail globally.

I think with modern designs the smaller new yacht, will see a resurgence in the UK. I will go down this road very soon, sell on my larger, older, refurbished boat.

All the above is just a guess, of course.

 

[RunAgroundHard]

But why is that different in France or Germany?

Attitude in the UK. The continentals aren’t so hung up on image.

 

[DreadShips]

The democratisation of sailing in the 60s and 70s is historically anomalous, and I think we're seeing a return to the long-term status quo. People in their 20s, 30s and even 40s now are struggling with impossible living costs and a yacht is the literal definition of a luxury item. It's why people saw them as aspirational! The idea that large numbers of them have the income to buy wrecks, to immediately spend thousands doing them up, and to then pay for the annual running costs is delusional.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

Most of the mooring minders we have on Pittwater don't need Diesel engines, they are designed to accept a small outboard (and an electric outboard is no longer a dream). Similarly you don't need expensive kit to sail on Pittwater, Sydney Harbour nor Lake Solent. Paper charts, or your phone/iPad are more than adequate and the waters are such to provide a safe place to learn. The yachts are day sailors - 18' - 30'. We tend not to have mooring minders in the 30' to 45' foot range. Admittedly these yachts are not going to win races, but J24s, Flying 15s, Etchells, Dragons (and other similarly sized (popular then, eg Sonatas) still have a very active race circuits - internationally. They will not cross your Channel (nor Bass Strait) but they are perfectly adequate to learn the fine art of sail trim.

We don't know the size of the yacht that sparked this thread - but the owner decided the mast needed to be re-newed - and then decided he (or his family?) no longer wanted the yacht - a new mast will be going to waste - and that is the odd thing about the thread. You don't pay to instal a new mast and rigging (implying that at the time the yacht merited the investment) - and then send the same yacht to the scrap yard 2 years later.

Shame really


Jonathan

I can think of a couple of scenarios but the new mast may have been an insurance job after a dismasting. Hence the general state of the rest of the yacht ie past viable repair.

Owner suddenly becoming ill or infirm.

 

[doug748]

Hoist, of this chapel, got his free project boat back to sailing trim inside 2 months. Great stuff:



Seems to have cost very little but you do need skill, perseverance and a sensible vision about what you are trying to achieve.
There are a number of posters on here doing similar things.

We have all seen the bizarre shopping lists that make small old boats look an impossible proposition:

New sails 3k
Instruments 2.5k
Standing rigging 1.5k
Engine 1.5k
Running rigging 1k
Etc.....

I think clinicians might be beginning to refer to this as the "Tally Ho" syndrome. As long as you are realistic, the boat is not a disaster and has usable parts, it can work but nobody would pretend it is easy.

As for the decline in the sport I can see it concerns racers but apart from that it's fine, for me. I am all for those who enjoy boats getting on with it and the rest can do their own thing.

.

 

[flaming]

As for the decline in the sport I can see it concerns racers but apart from that it's fine, for me. I am all for those who enjoy boats getting on with it and the rest can do their thing.

.

Depends how far it declines though. If chandleries start becoming unviable for example, then things start getting very expensive for those left.

 

[dunedin]

This is a vid of a bloke called, coincidentally - Roger. He rebuilt a yacht - I suppose he represents PBO

He did not chain saw his yacht , he must have ignored the negativity - and he did sail it round the UK.

Fulmar Concerto

It is possible, you do need a positive attitude

Jonathan

Roger and his Westerly Fulmar 32 Concerto is very different from somebody taking on a much older, smaller boat with major problems.
The Fulmar is one of the first “modern style” Westerly’s and a true classic in its own right. Massively bigger, inside and out, more seaworthy, fast and fun than a Centaur (a previous example). Also I suspect it was never a real “basket case” project boat, just a slightly tired but basically sound boat which Roger wanted to improve to make exceptional condition for its age.
So no real comparison with many of the old “project boats” you see on eBay or lying in boatyards.
But a great job done by Roger on it.

 

[DreadShips]

But why is that different in France or Germany?

My wife is German, and her family are frequently staggered how little she earns as a professional and how high our housing costs are (although Germany has got worse in this regard). That's a part of it.

And then check marina costs in (say) the Netherlands vs the UK...

 

[ylop]

But why is that different in France or Germany?

I don't know. I don't even know if it is different? I could speculate that the weather in France, and more annual leave provides more opportunity for use of investment? How do property prices, retirement ages etc compare? How do family dynamics compare? We (UK) are now much more likely to be centred round the activities our children want to do?

I think this will change, especially with the retiring GenZ, many of whom could afford such a price as a retirement activity. Having said that, those I know who sail in this space, have bought Sunsail packages and sail globally.

Do you mean Z ? Most of them haven't even started working properly. GenX potentially can - but their parents are living longer.

I think with modern designs the smaller new yacht, will see a resurgence in the UK. I will go down this road very soon, sell on my larger, older, refurbished boat.

All the above is just a guess, of course.

The camper van of the seas with excitement of surfing (which is essentially what I think the new First 30 is trying sell?) potentially is the market for the DINKYs.

 

[Wansworth]

Sadly a blog on the chainsawing might be more useful - best tools to use, temporary support for keels etc.

Has anyone's club ever organised a demolition party? Don't think our's has, despite a good proportion of the yard being occupied by (ostensibly) abandoned wrecks.

Guess health and safety is a bit part of it - going to be lots of potential for limbs to be chainsawed off
and feet crushed under falling keels.

Those battery saws that cut through metal are the thing