What a shame

Concerto

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This is a vid of a bloke called, coincidentally - Roger. He rebuilt a yacht - I suppose he represents PBO

He did not chain saw his yacht , he must have ignored the negativity - and he did sail it round the UK.

Fulmar Concerto

It is possible, you do need a positive attitude

Jonathan
You are correct I spent a small fortune on bringing Concerto to a very high standard, but it still cost only a third of what a new boat that size would have cost me. So instead of being an owner of a modern yacht with multiple look alikes in every marina, I now have a boat that people come along to have a chat as they either owned one, crewed on one or learned to sail on one. There are also some who still dream of owning a boat like mine, not to mention the comments that varnished wood trim sets her apart from the modern offerings.

When Concerto was at the Southampton Boat Show in 2021, there was a queue almost all day, every day. The compliments I receieved from the condition were almost constant and a few people wanted to know if I wanted to sell her. There were plenty of Westerly Owners and forum members who came aboard and feel sure they appreciated the massive amount of work I had put in over 10 years whilst I still sailed her regularly.

When moored in Lerwick in the Shetlands the following year I noticed many people walking along the quayside above the pontoons, they had passed by many many 40 to 50ft yachts without stopping, but when they saw Concerto they stopped and started pointing at her as she looked so different, a few even asked questions and then could not believe she was 42 years old at the time.

I do not regret what I have spent or the man hours I have put in. All the work was for my benefit and at sometime in the future someone else will no doubt appreciate it too. Conceto will certainly last another 40+ years with some maintenance, can the same be said of modern boats.

The Roger who was doing a brilliant job restoring a Centaur went well above what I did, but after 8 year beside his house it became too much for him and his family. It was still not completed and had little chance of getting much for her, so he sold lots of furntiture and fittings before chinsawing the hull. Such a shame, but life can get in the way. His web site (http://www.agentlemansyacht.com/) is no longer available but a few details and photos are here.
what is this? click for answer « Keep Turning Left
 

ridgy

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Racing is certainly reverting to it's elitist roots. I helped a mate out last summer on an ISORA Holyhead to Dublin race and was surprised to see the fleet being exclusively J/JPK/Sunfast plus other exotica. Not a sigma 33 etc in sight. Basically if you haven't got 100 to 150k to spend don't bother. You could win on handicap of course but what's the point of being so far behind, and that's before you get the sail expenditure.
I know the Solent inshore races still attract a selection but other than that seems cruiser racing is dead as a dodo
 

Hoist

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Racing is certainly reverting to it's elitist roots. I helped a mate out last summer on an ISORA Holyhead to Dublin race and was surprised to see the fleet being exclusively J/JPK/Sunfast plus other exotica. Not a sigma 33 etc in sight. Basically if you haven't got 100 to 150k to spend don't bother. You could win on handicap of course but what's the point of being so far behind, and that's before you get the sail expenditure.
I know the Solent inshore races still attract a selection but other than that seems cruiser racing is dead as a dodo
The problem with cruiser racing in my opinion is actually a trait of younger people.

When I started driving your first car was usually a banger 1.0 that you paid cash for with a bit of help from Mum and Dad if you were lucky. Now 17/18 you just go out and get finance on a car that has cruise control, air con and apple car play.

Young people don't want a cheap boat that they can afford. They want to sail to St tropez and put glamourous pictures on Instagram with the Asymmetric up

When myself and a freind were selling our Moody Eclipse 33 I had 3 separate people ask me for the boat for free! It was advertised at 35k since it was a project but they felt that it could start their youtube career and because they are young they should be allowed to follow their dreams. All 3 were told to bugger off or come to Kip Marina and Ill give them all a free boat from the naughty corner.

I also feel that small boats are being really hampered by the Nanny state culture. Standing rigging must be changed every 10 years, get a survey, Life jackets serviced, VHF licence, you need a life raft, insurance the list goes on and on. I am all for being safe and prepared if your crossing oceans but I feel its becoming very overkill and tedious.

You could easily spend £1000 on a survey on a boat only for them to tell you that the standing rigging needs changed at 1500 quid. So your £2500 into a boat that potentially you can't even give away.
 

chriscallender

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I also feel that small boats are being really hampered by the Nanny state culture. Standing rigging must be changed every 10 years, get a survey, Life jackets serviced, VHF licence, you need a life raft, insurance the list goes on and on. I am all for being safe and prepared if your crossing oceans but I feel its becoming very overkill and tedious.
It isn't all bad news yet

Standing rigging - I have 3rd party insurance so nobody cares except me. I chose to replace mine because one of the lowers had some dodgy wires and I didn't trust the rest of it which was presumably the same age (whatever that was). Spreaders were also severely corroded, but they were only aluminum round tubes with a good wall thickness. 200 quid all in for a leisure 17 got me decent rigging, probably worth it and certainly nobody made me do it or prevented me from taking bigger risks.

Survey - Never bothered, it woudn't make sense given the purchase price.

Lifejackets serviced - No rule / inspection forcing it but considering how you'd feel if one of your crew drowned, and the cost is minimal (guessing - average 10 quid per life jacket per year on needed parts) it would be daft not to. For me it only means inflating, checking for leaks, inspecting and weighing (or usually - replacing as a precaution) the CO2 cylinder and checking the expiry date on the auto inflate. The spares are readily available and DIY is allowed.

Insurance - yes needed, for any realistic use of the boat but 3rd party is enough and pretty cheap ( I don't remember exactly...), no survey needed, In case of a total loss I don't lose anything eyewaterng and there is also a big benefit - I can do things that might be a problem with comprehensive like single handed at night, in commission on a mooring 12 months/year etc if I decide I want to take the risk (and I do - within reason - like launching in March instead of April or leaving a few hours before sunrise if the tide suits).

Nanny state is a valid concern but I think amazingly, its still OK for now. Regulating leisure boating isn't that interesting to the authorities. It is becoming a hassle (and cash grab exercise) in other areas of life, so long may it stay that way.
 

obmij

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I am no fan of nanny state culture - but consider what our roads would look like without the requirement to tax, insure and MOT vehicles.

Every street in the UK would have a 'classic' or two rusting away on it's rims. Car parks would be half full of abandoned Ford Sierras and parking anywhere would be even more of an expensive nightmare than it already is. At least with the obligation to ensure some sort of roadworthiness - and an ownership record to discourage abandonment - we are forced to maintain our cars to a reasonable standard (regardless of cost) If this is unviable then we are required to dispose of them correctly.

We don't have any obligation to maintain, insure or register our vessels except in specific circumstances, so it is perfectly feasible to leave a boat on a mooring until she sinks and pollutes the environment and it is possible to do this without any consequence whatsoever. The lack of a requirement to maintain a seaworthy vessel is also responsible for boats deteriorating to the point where they are beyond economic repair and then abandoned. There must be thousands of abandoned boats throughout the UK and many more approaching that stage.
 

flaming

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Racing is certainly reverting to it's elitist roots. I helped a mate out last summer on an ISORA Holyhead to Dublin race and was surprised to see the fleet being exclusively J/JPK/Sunfast plus other exotica. Not a sigma 33 etc in sight. Basically if you haven't got 100 to 150k to spend don't bother. You could win on handicap of course but what's the point of being so far behind, and that's before you get the sail expenditure.
I know the Solent inshore races still attract a selection but other than that seems cruiser racing is dead as a dodo
I don't think this is especially new. Beneteau's newly launched First 30 is basically the same price, inflation adjusted, as the £37k Sigma was in 1991 when production ended. The newest Sigma is now 35 years old. The oldest is 47. Were there lots of 47 year old designs racing in those races 20 years ago etc?
The Sunfast 3200 when launched was under £100k btw....

And you're absolutely right that in the Solent there is an active racing scene that encompasses older boats. Sigmas, Laser 28s, Mustang 30s, older J92s etc have great racing. Whilst all struggling to beat a 1939 classic....

By far the bigger issue at the moment is that the JPK I have is no longer in production, and its replacement in the range is much higher tech and likely to be well north of £250k. The arms race in the specialist DH designs is getting well out of control.
 

flaming

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I also feel that small boats are being really hampered by the Nanny state culture. Standing rigging must be changed every 10 years, get a survey, Life jackets serviced, VHF licence, you need a life raft, insurance the list goes on and on. I am all for being safe and prepared if your crossing oceans but I feel its becoming very overkill and tedious.
A couple of weeks ago my mum asked what we should do with the lifejackets she has had in her loft since Dad died. They were all top quality crewsaver lifejackets, though getting on a bit. I took a look at them and decided they weren't much good for me, and selling them would be next to impossible. So they were destined for the skip

Out of curiosity I decided to pull them, see if they still worked.

6 lifejackets. Not been serviced in 6 years at least.

1 inflated, partially. The rest did absolutely nothing.

When I invite people to sail with me, the lifejackets are in service date. Full stop. That's not nanny state, that's being a responsible skipper.
 

flaming

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Young people don't want a cheap boat that they can afford. They want to sail to St tropez and put glamourous pictures on Instagram with the Asymmetric up
You say this like it's necessarily a problem.

The thing about boats, and race boats in particular, is that unlike say racing bikes, you don't need one per person. And the owner of a racing boat needs people who have the time and desire to sail with them. I've been sailing my whole life, racing yachts semi seriously for just over 20 years, and yet I'm only going into my third season of boat ownership.
I'm currently going through my crew calendar for this season. The 1st draft has about 25 people sailing with me this season, a good proportion of whom are under 30. And whilst the solent isn't quite St Tropez, I suspect that at least half of them will post about it on instagram....

Your point about being £2500 into a boat that you can't even give away, is exactly right. Though I think it is a rare person that bothers forking out for a survey when the survey cost is a significant proportion of the cost of the boat. And anyone who is getting into a refit of an older boat really ought to know well before a survey if the rigging is going to be an issue.
 

Hoist

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I'm currently going through my crew calendar for this season. The 1st draft has about 25 people sailing with me this season, a good proportion of whom are under 30. And whilst the solent isn't quite St Tropez, I suspect that at least half of them will post about it on instagram....

Also a very keen racer. We require 9 crew to race competitively. Our pool is around the same all managed via whatsapp. The difference between the 20 years plus people and the new one's is that racing is our life, where as racing to newer people is something to do when nothing else is on.

I agree, lifejackets should be suitable and you have a responsibility for all you carry as a skipper.

My point is there is a never ending list of legislation if you want there to be. I have flares in the garage from 1981 that still work but I don't put my life on them. And yes I tested them ;)
 

flaming

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Also a very keen racer. We require 9 crew to race competitively. Our pool is around the same all managed via whatsapp. The difference between the 20 years plus people and the new one's is that racing is our life, where as racing to newer people is something to do when nothing else is on.
We also require 9, but that's not my experience at all. My youngsters are if anything even keener than I was at the same age. The issue I have is that they're doing so much sailing, racing inshore, offshore, dinghies etc, that I'm not the only boat with a call on their services. It's actually the older ones, with perhaps a little "been there done that" who are reducing their availability due to other commitments.
 

ducked

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All of that presupposes owners for all those 25 foot 70 year old boats.

When all the evidence of the marine industry is that ownership is falling is number and rising in average age of owner, and average size of boat. A program of encouraging young(ish) people to renovate small old boats is a seriously uphill task.

Couple that with increasing willingness for boatyards and clubs to deal with abandoned wrecks by taking title in lieu of unpaid bills and scrapping them, and the supply of small boats is going to dwindle.
Sure, but take the motivating assumptions of this thread to be that these are gnerally bad things, and helping the task uphill a little would be a good thing.

Ive just got a free(ish) Trident. I'd be young(ish) if I could.
 

winch2

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As an older fellow said to me recently as we stood chatting on the foreshore. "Ten years ago you couldnt get a mooring here in this lovely river for love nor money... Now as you can see they are ten a penny, so to speak". And he's right. Boating is now becoming the pursuit of those with money to burn. Yes anyone can buy a boat but its the running costs that are going nuts

And on that note. Just received a notice from my harbour authority..."Its all going up next year, just thght you'd like to know". Great..
 
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DownWest

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I was thinking back to when we kept our 27ft on the Crouch with a self sorted mooring. Fees were pennies. There weren't actually any marinas. '60s

Not much to add, as just about everything has been covered.
Myself, I keep small daysailers at home and trail to the assorted free slips about here. I have a Kelt 6.20 in the garden for a friend, after the keel is fixed, it will go to his (free) mooring by his oyster shack on a local estuary.
If in the UK, likely have a couple of Sunsail cruises in warmer climes and keep a daysailer at home. Unless I won the lottery..
Marinas are quite a lot cheaper about here. Minimes; the biggest on the W Coast is a LOT less than UK. Rochefort is around half that.. but access is limited to high tide +,- an hour.

Very easy to get sucked into a 'project' ... We have an ongoing farmhouse.....
 

ylop

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I also feel that small boats are being really hampered by the Nanny state culture. Standing rigging must be changed every 10 years, get a survey, Life jackets serviced, VHF licence, you need a life raft, insurance the list goes on and on. I am all for being safe and prepared if your crossing oceans but I feel its becoming very overkill and tedious.
Doesn't really make sense - those sort of rules are exactly the sort of issues that expensive big boats face - but 3rd party insurance is cheap, surveys and standing rigging change etc are side effects of insurance. L/Js are simple to maintain and affordable. There's probably less need for a VHF compared to 20 yrs ago, and certainly a wider acceptance that if you will only use it in an emergency nobody will care about your paperwork. Nobody tells you you need a liferaft, especially for the sort of boating small boats do. So actually I think those all sound like big boat owner grumbles not real issues stopping people buying smaller older boats.
You could easily spend £1000 on a survey on a boat only for them to tell you that the standing rigging needs changed at 1500 quid. So your £2500 into a boat that potentially you can't even give away.
Survey's might not make sense on small old boats financially, but shouldn't cost as much as that, nor should they be revealing surprises about the age of the rigging...
My point is there is a never ending list of legislation if you want there to be.
There's actually virtually no legislation. There might be various bits of good practice but there absolutely is no Nanny state in UK boating. Someone asked why the UK is (perceived to be) worse than France of Germany. Both of who are far stricter on what people need to do to comply. In fact, our "relaxed" approach may actually put off people who might otherwise be interested. Seamanship, salty old sea dogs, stuff learned over decades etc - none of that actually says "do a few weekends with an instructor, buy some safety kit and you'll be fine".
As an older fellow said to me recently as we stood chatting on the foreshore. "Ten years ago you couldnt get a mooring here in this lovely river for love nor money... Now as you can see they are ten a penny". And he's right. Boating is now becoming the pursuit of those with money to burn. Yes anyone can buy a boat but its the running costs that are going nuts

And on that note. Just received a notice from my harbour authority..."Its all going up next year, just thght you'd like to know". Great..
That's surprising - just 3 years ago people were warning not to buy a boat if you had nowhere to keep it as everwhere was full.
 

seeSimon

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I also feel that small boats are being really hampered by the Nanny state culture. Standing rigging must be changed every 10 years, get a survey, Life jackets serviced, VHF licence, you need a life raft, insurance the list goes on and on. I am all for being safe and prepared if your crossing oceans but I feel its becoming very overkill and tedious.
Yes, this!

...and the ever increasing tendency towards some sort of "watertight" @rse covering attempts to duck/avoid perceived "liabilities "?

Eg Our loacl race committee are now requiring liferafts for ALL boats, for summer/dayl8ght/favourable weather inshore races (less than 3 miles offshore) along a well populated coast with several ports of refuge over the 25 mile course.

I'm a big boy, and not taking passengers...it's not a Code Boat!
 

ridgy

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Yes, this!

...and the ever increasing tendency towards some sort of "watertight" @rse covering attempts to duck/avoid perceived "liabilities "?

Eg Our loacl race committee are now requiring liferafts for ALL boats, for summer/dayl8ght/favourable weather inshore races (less than 3 miles offshore) along a well populated coast with several ports of refuge over the 25 mile course.

I'm a big boy, and not taking passengers...it's not a Code Boat!
Unless they do physical scrutineering, just tick the box and say you've got one.
 

dunedin

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Yes, this!

...and the ever increasing tendency towards some sort of "watertight" @rse covering attempts to duck/avoid perceived "liabilities "?

Eg Our loacl race committee are now requiring liferafts for ALL boats, for summer/dayl8ght/favourable weather inshore races (less than 3 miles offshore) along a well populated coast with several ports of refuge over the 25 mile course.

I'm a big boy, and not taking passengers...it's not a Code Boat!
Why don’t you volunteer to join the race organising committee, then you can have your say on what the rules should be
 

Hoist

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Yes, this!

...and the ever increasing tendency towards some sort of "watertight" @rse covering attempts to duck/avoid perceived "liabilities "?

Eg Our loacl race committee are now requiring liferafts for ALL boats, for summer/dayl8ght/favourable weather inshore races (less than 3 miles offshore) along a well populated coast with several ports of refuge over the 25 mile course.

I'm a big boy, and not taking passengers...it's not a Code Boat!
and to top it all off you can only have a dessicant style dehumidifier in some marina's cause one went on fire and now all dehumidifiers with a compressor are dangerous.

People using them improperly or without frost protection is dangerous. People buying cheap one's off alibaba is dangerous.

Rant over. this has become a rabbit hole of venting

Save all the small boats you can. Give them some love and they will probably kick your arse but I am sure it will be fun
 

ylop

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Yes, this!

...and the ever increasing tendency towards some sort of "watertight" @rse covering attempts to duck/avoid perceived "liabilities "?

Eg Our loacl race committee are now requiring liferafts for ALL boats, for summer/dayl8ght/favourable weather inshore races (less than 3 miles offshore) along a well populated coast with several ports of refuge over the 25 mile course.

I'm a big boy, and not taking passengers...it's not a Code Boat!
Doubt that’s putting off new people buying boats - if they’ve never been involved they won’t even have considered if such rules exist, what a liferaft costs or whether it’s logical. If they are part of the local scene they possibly see that as normal. If they hate that level of rules (and I do think that’s crazy) then it should mean buying an old boat and cruising it rather than racing is a good option. I can believe it puts off people who have been doing it their whole life - although sometimes people are looking for an excuse for a change rather than actually outraged at one decision.
 

Wansworth

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I blame it on women…….observed a group of men happily sailing their small yachts some as small as twenty foot!……Men on their own were content with a bucket certainly had no need for a double berth and managed to cook in a frying pan……Once the crew demand hot running water ,standing headroom,showers it’s the thin end of the wedge……it’s not possible to get a washing machine in a proper sea going 25 footer …….😂😂
 
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