What a shame

doug748

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Yes, this!

...and the ever increasing tendency towards some sort of "watertight" @rse covering attempts to duck/avoid perceived "liabilities "?

Eg Our loacl race committee are now requiring liferafts for ALL boats, for summer/dayl8ght/favourable weather inshore races (less than 3 miles offshore) along a well populated coast with several ports of refuge over the 25 mile course.

I'm a big boy, and not taking passengers...it's not a Code Boat!

A similar local series was wildly popular, oversubscribed to the point that new entrants were not actively encouraged. Then it was designated ORC 3 instead of 4 - liferafts etc. Pretty soon it was down to single figure entries.

.
 

Neeves

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Actually, I think you're wrong there. I was at Boot last week. There were a number of exciting, practical, fast cruisers in the 26-30 foot space. One of them, the new Beneteau first 30, was especially interesting in that the entire design and build program started with the selling price of 100k Euros. And whilst that number rose slightly, they're still selling this year for a tax paid, on the water with sails and electronics etc price of 140k Euros. They've already taken deposits for 50, which is their entire production run for 2025.

The difference is that where small cruising boats are bought in reasonable numbers in mainland Europe, they aren't in the UK. I understand that 1 of those 50 boats has been allocated to the UK,

Why UK buyers aren't buying new small boats is another question entirely.
The build programme started with a selling price of 100k Euros, the number rose slightly to...140k euros - slightly?

How many 20-30 somethings can afford the 100k euros let alone the 140k euros + the ongoing costs

I can understand they sell - but are they actually being sold to the 20-30 somethings and will they ever sell enough to have an international impact, like the J24, or the European impact of the X-99 - or will another model be introduced every few years.

A production run of 50 yachts for 2025 covering all of Europe (and maybe some exports) - its really not very many. It would not convince me that the builder had much confidence in the design underpinning 'large' sales. This is one of the largest builder of leisure yachts in the world and they plan to sell 50 models of a starter yacht. Compare that with 5,500 J24s (or 330 J35s over 10 years, or 600 X-99s, of which 100 were pre-sold before release).

UK buyers are not buying the model, why? Only 1 was allocated to the UK - simple really. Its not that the UK are not buying smaller yachts - not many in Europe are buying them either.

Or have I lost touch with reality?

Jonathan
 
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ducked

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Again with the car analogy, which has been worked quite hard above. I dont know that much about old boats, having only just acquired one, but I know a bit about old cars, and I doubt the analogy is a very good fit.

Say pre-cat up to the 90's, old cars used to be "bangers" and cheap, and are now "classics" and not so cheap. The main attraction apart from this cheapness was maintainability. Because they were simple they were generally robust. I could generally fix them without special skills or equipment, and without having to worry about making mystery money lights go out.

New cars prevent this in many ways. They are complex and highly integrated, being burdened with loads of superfluous shite that can stop them working, they require expensive and proprietary diagnostic and programming software, they sometimes have ludicrously expensive replacement components (LED light clusters, for example) which are coded to prevent or complicate the use of recycled bits, and there are specific examples of horribly fragile innovations, such as DPF on diesels or belt-in-oil petrol engines.

As far as I can tell this doesnt really apply in the same way to boats, and to the extent it does it seems to be mostly the other way around. True classics will be wooden, and, while they are maintainable, it requires traditional skills and materials in short supply. Plastic classics (GRP) boats are often said to be tougher (thicker layup) than new ones and (I hope) are repairable relatively simply.

The only general decline in maintainability (engines and electronics aside) I'm aware of is in the use of cored decks. These arent perhaps economically repairable, but I'd think it might still be doable DIY, though I might be kidding myself. Cored (and advanced composite) hulls might be another matter.

The main difference between cars and boats, however, is that the (considerable) pressure from The Man to scrap old cars does not apply to old boats, yet. No nautical MOT, for example.

It would be a real shame if the sort of consumerist disapproval expressed here provided any support for it from the inside.
Maybe widen the FRP boat maintainability challenge list to include encapsulation in general (keels, chainplates, ply reinforcement as well as deck cores, etc. This would make for a longer list of issues, though still nothing like as bad as a modern car.
 

Neeves

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Cars might not be a good fit but are commonly the second most expensive 'item' that people buy - second to their home.

An interesting comparison might then be cost of the car, vs cost of the home vs cost of a yacht - factoring in that you live in the home 24/7, use the car daily (so that you can fund the home and .... yacht) - but you can use the yacht, how often....? Then extend the comparison to Continental Europe.

When we lived in HK we used the yachts every weekend, as it got us out of the flat and was a better diversion than 'The Mall', We had no car, it was deemed both unnecessary and expensive (!). On, early, retirement to Oz we used the cat, which we owned for over 20 years, at least weekly and made 3 month annual cruises to 'The Whitsundays' and then Tasmania - we used our yachts and use and need a car.

Jonathan
 

Alicatt

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My wife is German, and her family are frequently staggered how little she earns as a professional and how high our housing costs are (although Germany has got worse in this regard). That's a part of it.

And then check marina costs in (say) the Netherlands vs the UK...
Or even Belgium, we looked at the costs of mooring, around Loch Lomond for our last boat, a 7.5m inland motor cruiser, they were asking around £1800 for the summer season and more for dry storage during winter, compare that with what we were paying for the full year for an 8m berth in Belgium at €325. The Ocean 37 which is occupying a 12m berth costs €487 for the year including VAT, I have just paid the mooring and club fees for 2025, club fees don't have VAT as the govt dont put VAT on sports clubs :)
That boat we sold in November 2024, last week we had an enquiry from our daughter's brother in law wanting to buy her or if we knew of a boat they could start out on, he is in his early 40s.

The boat we have now is a 47 year old Ocean 37 and is 1 year older than the last boat, neither of them were in that bad a condition just needing a bit of love, care, and some proper maintenance.

The one we have now has had a bucket full of money thrown at her over the past few years, over €10k more than what we paid for her, she was a project by the previous owner that wanted a boat, sadly he passed away before he could use her and his family sold her as they did not want a motorboat.
She still needs a bit spent on her cosmetically - paint and varnish mostly
 

Alicatt

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Cars might not be a good fit but are commonly the second most expensive 'item' that people buy - second to their home.

An interesting comparison might then be cost of the car, vs cost of the home vs cost of a yacht - factoring in that you live in the home 24/7, use the car daily (so that you can fund the home and .... yacht) - but you can use the yacht, how often....? Then extend the comparison to Continental Europe.

When we lived in HK we used the yachts every weekend, as it got us out of the flat and was a better diversion than 'The Mall', We had no car, it was deemed both unnecessary and expensive (!). On, early, retirement to Oz we used the cat, which we owned for over 20 years, at least weekly and made 3 month annual cruises to 'The Whitsundays' and then Tasmania - we used our yachts and use and need a car.

Jonathan
I looked up the brochure price of our boat, an Ocean 37, when she was built and she was more than 3 times the figure that we sold our semi detached villa in a very good area at Loch Lomond around the same time, which was about 10 times what my father paid for it 13 years previously, The boat was still about £15k more than what we paid for our 10 bedroom hotel at that time.
It was not a cheap boat back then, and she has maintained that price when we bought her.
 

ducked

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Cars might not be a good fit but are commonly the second most expensive 'item' that people buy - second to their home.

An interesting comparison might then be cost of the car, vs cost of the home vs cost of a yacht - factoring in that you live in the home 24/7, use the car daily (so that you can fund the home and .... yacht) - but you can use the yacht, how often....? Then extend the comparison to Continental Europe.

When we lived in HK we used the yachts every weekend, as it got us out of the flat and was a better diversion than 'The Mall', We had no car, it was deemed both unnecessary and expensive (!). On, early, retirement to Oz we used the cat, which we owned for over 20 years, at least weekly and made 3 month annual cruises to 'The Whitsundays' and then Tasmania - we used our yachts and use and need a car.

Jonathan
I doubt I'll again have a car in the UK, though I did run one until fairly recently in Taiwan and would probably get another (Toyota Zace favorite) here if I was staying. Low tech bangers no longer exist, on-street parking (and maintenance) outside my Edinburgh flat wouldnt be appropriate for the rare non-disposable classics they have become, I doubt I'd find a modern car maintainable, and, TBH, I'm probably getting too old and creaky for on-street maintenance in Scotland anyway. Jacking up a car on the horribly slippery and uneven traditional granite sets (square cobblestones) was always dangerous and doing it much into my 70's, perhaps in the winter, would feel like pushing my luck.

Whether I'm too old for boat revival in Scotland remains to be seen, but what I didn't fully appreciate was how absolutely atrociously random the bus service is from its location at Boness, an especially critical factor in miserable Scotland, where an hours wait, (quite normal, if it stops at all) could literally kill (me anyway, acclimatised to SE Asia for 20 years or so).

What a shame about Brexit, which, along with other embuggerances, blocked off some potential escape routes. Still, I can console myself with the reflection that it wasn't my fault, since I wasn't there.
 
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ducked

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The build programme started with a selling price of 100k Euros, the number rose slightly to...140k euros - slightly?

How many 20-30 somethings can afford the 100k euros let alone the 140k euros + the ongoing costs

I can understand they sell - but are they actually being sold to the 20-30 somethings and will they ever sell enough to have an international impact, like the J24, or the European impact of the X-99 - or will another model be introduced every few years.

A production run of 50 yachts for 2025 covering all of Europe (and maybe some exports) - its really not very many. It would not convince me that the builder had much confidence in the design underpinning 'large' sales. This is one of the largest builder of leisure yachts in the world and they plan to sell 50 models of a starter yacht. Compare that with 5,500 J24s (or 330 J35s over 10 years, or 600 X-99s, of which 100 were pre-sold before release).

UK buyers are not buying the model, why? Only 1 was allocated to the UK - simple really. Its not that the UK are not buying smaller yachts - not many in Europe are buying them either.

Or have I lost touch with reality?

Jonathan
Given that apparently potentially viable FREE yachts now seem to be an actual, factual, satisfactual thing, I'd think you would have to be both very well heeled, and a VERY big fan of SHINY, to drop 140K on a new one.

Maybe there aren't enough of these...er...special people.

TBH I'm struggling a bit with the perception of that as a problem, though I suppose if I built boats I wouldn't be.
 

ducked

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It doesn't seem logical, but sometimes it is the best decision. In fact I did something similar myself.

In my early 20's I bought a 1960's Hurley 22 - the cheapest on the market - and sailed her home. No functioning electronics and a wheezy petrol inboard which would overheat after 10 minutes. The rig was knackered ( I thought stretched) but I was confident that with a bit of graft I would see her right. Like most people of that age I was working full time so all time in the yard was around my day job. I removed the engine and made good the glass work, removed and refitted basic electrics including nav and interior lights, VHF, depth and GPS, I replaced all the standing rigging and put a new furler on (previously hanked on sails).

It was the rigging that did me first. Stupid in hindsight but I hadn't clocked the mast compression. Not an insurmountable problem - but not good news when you've just put a new rig on. I was taking my mind of it by removing all the old antifoul when I realised that although she had been on the hard for months, rusty water was still dripping from the encapsulated keel. I had seen this but had somehow managed to willfully ignore it. Faced with the prospect of a compromised keel with rotting ballast, the goosed deck - and who knows what else (not to mention ongoing yard fees) it was at this point I decided to sell the boat and did so for a quid.

I lost thousands in sunk cost that at 23ish I cparticularly ould ill afford to lose but nevertheless it was one of the best deals I have ever done.
Sad story. I fancied a Hurley, particularly the headroom on the 24, and went to look at a cheap 22 at Aberdour, but was put off by the encapsulated keels, which I hadnt thought of until I saw them. They looked intact, but the design seemed inherently vulnerable to abrasion by a drying mooring unless on very soft mud, and subsequent hidden corrosion. I wondered about adding steel or plastic shoes, but eventually decided to just look at boats with exposed ballast keels. These could have problems too of course, but I thought I would have a better chance of seeing them.

No known issue on the Trident keels (apart from surface rust) seen in the initial clean up, but its early days. There are cases where hidden rust on the bilge keel inserts levers the hull apart.
 

ylop

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The build programme started with a selling price of 100k Euros, the number rose slightly to...140k euros - slightly?
I think there’s a slight confusion between the two numbers from what I read. I believe they were targetting 100K list price ex vat; 140k is the inc vat, ready to sail price.
How many 20-30 somethings can afford the 100k euros let alone the 140k euros + the ongoing costs
Were 20-30s ever the target demographic for new boats?
I can understand they sell - but are they actually being sold to the 20-30 somethings and will they ever sell enough to have an international impact, like the J24, or the European impact of the X-99 - or will another model be introduced every few years.
The interesting question is actually will other makers see potential and also start making “small” planing cruising boats?
UK buyers are not buying the model, why? Only 1 was allocated to the UK - simple really. Its not that the UK are not buying smaller yachts - not many in Europe are buying them either.
That’s true - but I think to sell these boats in volume you probably need real world demonstrators (or an installed base) because they are apparently revolutionary sailing experience - ordinary cruisers stopped worrying about 1 def of pointing or 0.5knots top speed a long time ago.
Given that apparently potentially viable FREE yachts now seem to be an actual, factual, satisfactual thing, I'd think you would have to be both very well heeled, and a VERY big fan of SHINY, to drop 140K on a new one.
If you had 140k to drop on a shiny new (or nearly new) boat you probably need your head read if you didn’t at least consider doing that rather than buying a free / almost free MAB and then spending a lot of time and £ to tart it up to tollerable condition that’s worth less than the cash never mind the time!
 

winch2

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I also feel that small boats are being really hampered by the Nanny state culture
This. I neither have insurance nor to I abide by any of the beaurocracy other than Colregs. The sea is a big open space . Get a boat jump in it and have fun... the way we always did. People today get way to hung up on bowing to the 'MAN'. In fact going to sea is probably the last activity anyone can do that needn't have someone breathing down your neck following your every move.
 

Blueboatman

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A J24 on a single axle trailer -for winter storage with a Landy owning mate - offers such sailing fun..
People have sailed them across to the Caribbean too!
2hp outboard, small autopilot,
Jobs a good un
 

RunAgroundHard

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This. I neither have insurance nor to I abide by any of the beaurocracy other than Colregs. The sea is a big open space . Get a boat jump in it and have fun... the way we always did. People today get way to hung up on bowing to the 'MAN'. In fact going to sea is probably the last activity anyone can do that needn't have someone breathing down your neck following your every move.

I think you are acting foolishly by exposing yourself to being sued if you had an incident that impacted 3rd parties and they looked for redress due to your negligence. I insure my Wayfarer for 50 quid a year that covers 3rd party liability; the wayfarer does not need insurance, it has little financial value.

There is no nanny state when it comes to sailing. The state in the UK demands nothing from us sailors, you are free to sail your boat as you wish, when you wish. Organisations that people choose to use may have their own rules and requirements, if you don't like it, don't participate. For example, my marina berth is dependent on me having third party insurance.

A good example of why the nanny state needs to intervene when professional organisations choose to act in a manner that increases risk. Lyme Bay canoeing disaster - Wikipedia
 

flaming

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The build programme started with a selling price of 100k Euros, the number rose slightly to...140k euros - slightly?

How many 20-30 somethings can afford the 100k euros let alone the 140k euros + the ongoing costs

I can understand they sell - but are they actually being sold to the 20-30 somethings and will they ever sell enough to have an international impact, like the J24, or the European impact of the X-99 - or will another model be introduced every few years.

A production run of 50 yachts for 2025 covering all of Europe (and maybe some exports) - its really not very many. It would not convince me that the builder had much confidence in the design underpinning 'large' sales. This is one of the largest builder of leisure yachts in the world and they plan to sell 50 models of a starter yacht. Compare that with 5,500 J24s (or 330 J35s over 10 years, or 600 X-99s, of which 100 were pre-sold before release).

UK buyers are not buying the model, why? Only 1 was allocated to the UK - simple really. Its not that the UK are not buying smaller yachts - not many in Europe are buying them either.

Or have I lost touch with reality?

Jonathan
So as pointed out, the 100k was ex vat at the factory gate, the 140k is in the water, vat paid. I think the 100 actually ended up about 110 at the factory gate.

My point was not necessarily that significant numbers of 20-30 year olds could find that money, but more that at last a boat company is breaking from the herd and actively trying to keep a lid on costs, rather than adding new features and bumping the price up. For example Beneteau's own 30 foot cruiser, the Oceanis 30.1, is more than 140k on the water. And that's, on the face of it, a much simpler boat.

50 boats is their 2025 plan. Remember that this is being built by seascape, who have a much smaller facility than Beneteau's main AWB plant. It's been stated that if they have strong demand they will start running 2 shifts and gear up to do 6 boats per month from the middle of this year. Which takes us to 72 boats per year. If they're really taking off you'd think that Beneteau would look to tool up another facility after that.
No it's not going to be the next J24. I doubt we'll ever see the like of that again frankly. But they built 1,500 of the old first 31.7 over a 13 year production run...

Remember, the much vaunted Sigma 33 "only" had about 400 hulls built over 13 years.

We'll see how many end up in the UK. But I'm not holding my breath.
 

flaming

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and to top it all off you can only have a dessicant style dehumidifier in some marina's cause one went on fire and now all dehumidifiers with a compressor are dangerous.

People using them improperly or without frost protection is dangerous. People buying cheap one's off alibaba is dangerous.

Rant over. this has become a rabbit hole of venting

Save all the small boats you can. Give them some love and they will probably kick your arse but I am sure it will be fun
Electrical fire in our yard this winter. Waiting to hear if that boat is going to get written off or not.

No idea if it was a dehum or not, but it's a race boat.... We're all running them. There's been more than a few fires caused by dehums over the years. One took out a very rare J90 a few years back. That was a real shame.
 

Daydream believer

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Depends where you are. Low cost still with a little GRP boat up to say 24ft with outboard on half tide mooring and only go sailing in nice weather when you won't break anything. Much cheaper than a beach hut and can stay overnight.
What a boring entry to sailing. No wonder there are less coming in to the sport from the younger fraternity
 

DoubleEnder

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And then check marina costs in (say) the Netherlands vs the UK...
This. Someone I know moved a 32’ yacht from a swinging mooring on the east coast of England ( one with very very few shoreside amenities) to a yacht club pontoon in the Netherlands. Here he had electricity, water, security, loos and showers, car park, public transport, bar and restaurant - none of which were available with his old mooring. The cost was significantly lower, maybe 50% lower.
 

chriscallender

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If you had 140k to drop on a shiny new (or nearly new) boat you probably need your head read if you didn’t at least consider doing that rather than buying a free / almost free MAB and then spending a lot of time and £ to tart it up to tollerable condition that’s worth less than the cash never mind the time!
Just different approaches to life....

For me, I don't put a cost on my time tarting old things up (if I did I'd have been bankrupted years ago :) ). I don't mind at all spending (say) 1k on a boat and another 1k tarting it up for it to end up being worth 1100 (or even 900 ... they are not a lot different numbers anyway). I'm just happy that I have a boat to sail. Whereas personally, it would feel frivalous to put 140k into something that's just a hobby for my own amusement. It wouldn't be fun at all in a way that would spoil the whole thing and proabably make me give up. Not meant as a criticism, but its just truthfully how spending that kind of money would make me feel.

Now I know people in the new and shiney camp would see it differently, and point out that the 140k boat is an asset they can sell later in a way that mine will certainly never be ;-), and I should be looking at cost of ownership, not cost of the asset. Logically I can see that, but I just can't feel it. Maybe I do need my head read; it just makes me realise how differently people think about life, money, value, risk and those kind of things.
 

Egret

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DDB Said ~#116 - What a boring entry to sailing. No wonder there are less coming in to the sport from the younger fraternity

Depends on where you are - I'm seeing young people with paddleboards (often with family and/or dog) moving up to the little old fibreglass boats (sail or power) on half tide moorings so they have somewhere to sit dry and make cup of coffee or sleep over; and then probably moving in time to something bigger like a Centaur. Not seeing them move over to dinghy racing. Floating beach hut but cheaper. Not planning to sail across the channel. Paddleboard seems to be the new way into boating for new people with little old cruising boats being the next step.

Dinghy racers do move over to boats like sonatas then on.

(Always prudent to have a boat checked over before buying to ensure no hidden defects and only spend what you can lose - wouldn't consider wood - like holiday money is gone once it is over. I spent same on a GRP boat 35 years ago as would have spent on a holiday but still have the boat which has cost very little for repairs over that time. Like cars, the best ones don't get as far as the forecourt.)

140K for a 30 footer a very different market.
 
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ylop

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For me, I don't put a cost on my time tarting old things up (if I did I'd have been bankrupted years ago :) ). I don't mind at all spending (say) 1k on a boat and another 1k tarting it up for it to end up being worth 1100 (or even 900 ... they are not a lot different numbers anyway). I'm just happy that I have a boat to sail. Whereas personally, it would feel frivalous to put 140k into something that's just a hobby for my own amusement. It wouldn't be fun at all in a way that would spoil the whole thing and proabably make me give up. Not meant as a criticism, but it’s just truthfully how spending that kind of money would make me feel.
I’m certainly not disputing that we all have different approaches or suggesting others are not valid - but if you buy a £1k boat and only need to spend another £1k to get it into shape I’d say you’ve done well! It would not be that unusual for someone to buy a £1k boat and spend £5k+ and every weekend for a year to end up with a boat they could sell for maybe £3k and have not actually sailed yet. If the work is a chore rather than a hobby in its own right - suddenly chartering is looking more sensible! And £5k is probably being conservative - yard fees for a year, antfouling & varnish, running rigging, and some batteries could wipe that out, stick in standing rigging, sails, engines, upholstery, headlining, any grp work and the bills really rack up.
 
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