Warning from VisitMyHarbour about Marine Navigator

[Plum]

There should be. The only current standard for a legal for use chart plotter requires dual redundancy of power supply and GNSS, ability for automatic updates, quite high signing and security of data and a 15" screen.

I was not aware there was a standard for leisure craft. Commercial only?

 

[dunedin]

I was not aware there was a standard for leisure craft. Commercial only?

That’s my understanding also, at least for the UK. Can navigate a private boat via an old AA road atlas if stupid enough

However, my understanding was the UKHO licence agreement required some sort of not for navigation warning, so if an app doesn’t have this they may be breaking that condition of contract (but can’t be certain without seeing the contract terms, which is unlikely).

 

[RunAgroundHard]

There should be. The only current standard for a legal for use chart plotter requires dual redundancy of power supply and GNSS, ability for automatic updates, quite high signing and security of data and a 15" screen.

It's not illegal to use consumer plotters on a leisure boat, non commercial. It's also not illegal to use a plotter on a leisure yacht used commercially, although it can't be coded unless there are charts or a mini ECDIS / ECDIS. On a commercial yacht with charts, a consumer plotter can be used as an aid to navigation, like the majority of charter boats in the UK. Not being coded, and operating commercially is illegal, hence consumer plotter only, and no paper charts, would nullify the coding. Automatic chart updating is not a requirement on any of the systems for vessels of any size. The ability to update electronic charts has to be in place and applied, but that can be through a manual instruction. The reason for the automatic updating service not being mandatory, is that shipping now incorporates cyber security and automatic updating is usually prohibited. The last ship I worked on, the updates were sent to a vessel computer from the office, then transferred to a thumb drive, pre and post transfer virus checking, then plugged into the ECDIS computer and charts up dated, all done under permit to work and controlled manually. Other ships I worked on, sent the updates to a network area, then when verified as okay, were accessed by the ECDIS system for updating. It can be done automatically.

 

[st599]

It's not illegal to use consumer plotters on a leisure boat, non commercial. It's also not illegal to use a plotter on a leisure yacht used commercially, although it can't be coded unless there are charts or a mini ECDIS / ECDIS. On a commercial yacht with charts, a consumer plotter can be used as an aid to navigation, like the majority of charter boats in the UK. Not being coded, and operating commercially is illegal, hence consumer plotter only, and no paper charts, would nullify the coding. Automatic chart updating is not a requirement on any of the systems for vessels of any size. The ability to update electronic charts has to be in place and applied, but that can be through a manual instruction. The reason for the automatic updating service not being mandatory, is that shipping now incorporates cyber security and automatic updating is usually prohibited. The last ship I worked on, the updates were sent to a vessel computer from the office, then transferred to a thumb drive, pre and post transfer virus checking, then plugged into the ECDIS computer and charts up dated, all done under permit to work and controlled manually. Other ships I worked on, sent the updates to a network area, then when verified as okay, were accessed by the ECDIS system for updating. It can be done automatically.

Never said it was illegal, only that a non-ECDIS has to.show a not for navigation warning.

 

[st599]

I was not aware there was a standard for leisure craft. Commercial only?

SOLAS V requires you to undertake a passage plan using appropriate charts and publications and at present the only IMO approved charts are paper ones.

One of MCAs requirements for UKHO stopping printed charts is a requirement for a small vessel standard for plotters. Small Vessel ECS Performance Standard (SV-ECS)

So it will be a requirement for coded vessels, but the mood music at trade shows is that the coded vessels market is too small, so it will have to be all plotters

 

[st599]

That’s my understanding also, at least for the UK. Can navigate a private boat via an old AA road atlas if stupid enough

However, my understanding was the UKHO licence agreement required some sort of not for navigation warning, so if an app doesn’t have this they may be breaking that condition of contract (but can’t be certain without seeing the contract terms, which is unlikely).

Nope, SOLAS V requires those navigating a vessel to use relevant publications, a road atlas wouldn't count.

There is an international standard for an electronic chart device - ECDIS - these are the only devices that IMO recognises for navigation, anything else has to have a Not For Navigation warning. UKHO probably make it a licensing term, but it's also a matter of international treaty.

With the move to non-paper charts, this is a problem as an ECDIS requires multiple power supplies and charging, multiple separate GNSS feeds, ability to override satellite location, minimum screen size etc. They look big on an oil tanker - impossible on a yacht. So the UK MCA have created a Small Vessel Electronic Chart System to try and undo the problem they created. Problem is, it's only financially viable if all chart plotters implement it.

 

[RunAgroundHard]

Never said it was illegal, only that a non-ECDIS has to.show a not for navigation warning.

I have just opened Memory Maps with UKHO Raster Charts, Garmin Boating (Navionics), Savvy Navvy, TZi Boat (Time Zero), all of which use data from approved HO sources, including UKHO. No warning issued that states "not for navigation warning" or anything similar. My MFD, Raymarine Axiom+, running Lighthouse and using Lighthouse charts does show a warning when switched on. I do not know why this is the case but I don't believe that it is anything to do with the IMO just nation specific decisions on how they want to structure their regulations.

 

[dunedin]

I have just opened Memory Maps with UKHO Raster Charts, Garmin Boating (Navionics), Savvy Navvy, TZi Boat (Time Zero), all of which use data from approved HO sources, including UKHO. No warning issued that states "not for navigation warning" or anything similar. My MFD, Raymarine Axiom+, running Lighthouse and using Lighthouse charts does show a warning when switched on. I do not know why this is the case but I don't believe that it is anything to do with the IMO just nation specific decisions on how they want to structure their regulations.

The UKHO raster charts on Memory Map etc presumably don’t need a not for navigation warning warning as these are the same digital images that the official paper charts are printed from.

 

[dunedin]

….

With the move to non-paper charts, this is a problem as an ECDIS requires multiple power supplies and charging, multiple separate GNSS feeds, ability to override satellite location, minimum screen size etc. They look big on an oil tanker - impossible on a yacht. So the UK MCA have created a Small Vessel Electronic Chart System to try and undo the problem they created. Problem is, it's only financially viable if all chart plotters implement it.

The biggest issue with MGN 319, which mandates SV ECS, is that it also mandates only official ENC ENC digital charts. Which are priced for supertankers not leisure craft.
It specifically prohibits use of (affordable) UKHO raster charts or (affordable) commercial leisure charts such as Navionics, C-Map etc.
The equivalent set of charts to Navionics full UK chart set would literally cost more than many peoples boats - just for a year.

 

[st599]

The UKHO raster charts on Memory Map etc presumably don’t need a not for navigation warning warning as these are the same digital images that the official paper charts are printed from.

Nope, need a warning as only vector charts are allowed.

 

[st599]

The biggest issue with MGN 319, which mandates SV ECS, is that it also mandates only official ENC ENC digital charts. Which are priced for supertankers not leisure craft.
It specifically prohibits use of (affordable) UKHO raster charts or (affordable) commercial leisure charts such as Navionics, C-Map etc.
The equivalent set of charts to Navionics full set of UK chart set would literally cost more than many peoples boats - just for a year.

Also forbids the use of data usually on a UKHO leisure chart that wasn't gathered by UKHO or similar hydrographic institution - so most marinas, small harbours etc. which rely on data from harbour masters have no information.

 

[AntarcticPilot]

The UKHO raster charts on Memory Map etc presumably don’t need a not for navigation warning warning as these are the same digital images that the official paper charts are printed from.

The charts are NOT printed from the raster digital images - the data are held in a vector format, and printed from that. The raster charts are produced in a parallel process. You can think of it as being like different printer outputs. But raster data have no part in the production of charts - they are an end-product.

As no consumer device can guarantee fidelity of colour rendering or control over zoom levels, the provider can't be certain of what the end user actually sees - hence the need for strict management of commercial ECDIS systems, and why such systems should carry a warning (personally I think "Not for Navigation" is inadequate and indefensible on a device provided for navigation!).

 

[Mutineering]

AngelNav looks to be single-platform, unfortunately. I'd be interested to hear recommendations for other raster-chart applications that work well on Android gear. I'm currently using Marine Navigator and it seems pretty stable.

Do Apple even make a tablet that's suitable for navigation? I don't think any of them have an IP rating, sunlight readable screen or high drop-resistance... though I have to admit I haven't done anything more than a cursory search on the subject.
There are pretty good options for Android tablets, including the SailProof ones as well as Samsung's Active-Tabs.

There are a couple of free, open source options available. We successfully use one of them in our classic windfall yacht 'Sea Scamp'. Runs on a Raspberry pi, android or Linux.