WAFI

[SteveJ]

yesterday evening we were out for some training dives in Poole Harbour, we were anchored just outside the channel. The first group went in leaving myself in the inflatable, after about 20 min they were due to come up, there was a small sailing boat about 200-300 yards away sailing in the channel. as our divers came up the yacht was gatting closer to us i assumed that they would tack, but no they kept coming and collided with the channel marker nearby and then were being blown towards us at which point the sail was dropped and i had to fend them off our inflatable, the divers hhad to swim away!!

we were anchored,flying the A flag and had informed the harbour master we were diving in this area, the only yacht we saw out sailing the whole evening managed to collisde with us at anchor!!

THEY HAVE THE CHEEK TO COMPLAIN ABOUT MOTOR BOATS!!!

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[tcm]

Re: Alpha flag size

How big is your Alpha flag?

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[DavidJ]

Why are there two different diving flags, the Blue and White (Alpha) and the Red with White strip down it (traditional). As a diver I recognise both but we could make life a bit easier for ourselves.
David

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[tcm]

Re: Alpha flag size - details

hm, he's gone.

Anyway, Rule 27 of IRPCS applies thus:
....-------------
(e) Whenever the size of a vessel engaged in diving operations makes it impracticable to exhibit all the lights and shapes prescribed in the paragraph (d) of this Rule, the following shall be exhibited;

(i) three all-round lights in a vertical line where they can best be seen. The highest and lowest of these lights shall be red and the middle light shall be white;

(ii) a rigid replica of the International Code Flag "A" not less than 1 metre in height. Measures shall be taken to ensure its all-round visibility.
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Now, i have only once seen a "rigid replica with measure taken to ensure it's all-round vsibility " and even then it wasn't 1 metre high. It is three plywood "flags" at 120 degrees to each other.

Loads of dive boats use a floppy and too-small alpha flag unsuitable (an not legal) to mark a dive boat more suited as part of a signal set. The chandleries sell them, but they also sell illegal-size anchor balls as well. Small alpha flags can't be seen from any distance at all.

The net result of not using a (massive) legal-size alpha marker is to encourage a collision as happened here: the rib/boat is not a dive boat, it's an abandoned dinghy, perhaps kids in trouble blown out to sea, perhaps an unwanted prize, and most definitely worth a closer look - hence the collision.

I will wager that the dive boat in question did not show a 1-metre high rigid replica of the Alpha flag.




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[BrendanS]

Re: Alpha flag size - details

Yep, agree. Very seldom see dive flags that you can spot at any distance.

Usually identify dive boats simply by the fact that you get used to them being in certain spots - which is OK if you know the area and are reasonably observant, but a big flag, as legally required would make a hell of a difference

<hr width=100% size=1>Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabris, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Re: Alpha flag size - details

Agree with you Matt, dive boats dont do themselves any favours by exhibiting handerkerchief sized Alpha flag and then positioning themselves near or in busy boating areas on fine summer weekends and expect everyone to steer clear of them
Like Brendan says, you get used to seeing them in the areas in which they operate and assume that any boat stopped in the water is diving so you keep away
I liked the French charts I used in SoF which highlighted diving areas so it was easy to keep away from them

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[tico]

Re: Alpha flag size - details

Also, amazing how many dive ribs you see at WOT 30kts flying an A flag!! Gotta swim fast to keep up

<hr width=100% size=1>Been there, done that, got the oily T shirt

 

[Planty]

Re: Alpha flag size - details

Sorry, have I missed something here, OK their flag may have been to small, but they are at anchor and another boat collides with them and the tone on here seems to suggest its the anchored boats fault?

Surely in the ColRegs it says somewhere all involved will do all in their power to avoid collisions, which includes keeping a watch, whether on a sailboat, dive boat or whatever. Safety alone would dictate that the sail boat at a point prior to collision should have tacked away, then again did the dive boat use all methods to alert the sailor to imminent danger, air horn use perhaps?

Sorry if I have missed something but coming into this at this point a lot of the previous seem to be a bit one sided. Paul

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[BrendanS]

Re: Alpha flag size - details

Ah! thread drift you see. We've sort of strayed off the specific incident which started the thread, into a generic rant about dive boats never showing the correct rigid 1m high A flag.

<hr width=100% size=1>Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabris, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam.

 

[tcm]

Re: hm

erm they are in the wrong, even if at anchor, especially if diving IF they have no flag or the wrong size of flag.

At anchor, you must show a dayshape of the correct size. Diving, if choosing not to show the shapes for underwater operations/which side to pass, cos the boat is too small, the boat must show an Alpha flag of the correct dimensions. (maybe
the dive boat also needs to show an achor ball too, probably yes, not sure.)

Anyway, no anchor ball means you aren't at anchor, and must therefore give way (somehow).

If diving from a dinghy, no correct-sized dayshapes means you aren't a dive boat, you're flotsam, or a lost dinghy or even a free dinghy.

To return to your query - it might or might not be the anchored boats problem if they had no anchor ball up. If they did have the anchor ball up and it was 600mm dia they would be 100% in the clear. Otherwise not so. Being at anchor isn't like being in a parked car : the correct move is to give way unless showing the correct dayshape, and any sailing boat would quite reasonable expect you to give way unless showing the dayshape.

My point is that driving/sailing over to (or indeed if you were a big boat and it was a small dinghy at sea rather than in a channel- driving over it completley) is perfectly reasonable - unless they have a proper size dive flag of which the minimum size is 1 metre high. Dead or injured divers, - but not the fault of the boat that turns up UNLESS the dive boat shows the dayshapes.

Oh, and if i somebosy whams into you when you're at anchor in newtown creek, that's someone daft like erm hopefully not our boat being an arse. But if you had no anchor ball, the rental company will waste no time in establishing that fact. "obviously having the anchor down" ain't an option either - lots of boat trial round with anchors down, big ferries even used to have the doors open whilst underway. In a big anchorage and in many marinas where an anchor is needed you will see an anchor ball. So best get an anchor ball.

all imho

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[longjohnsilver]

Re: hm

Debatable as to anchor ball being needed, depends where you are.

A vessel of less than 7 metres in length, when at anchor, not in or near a narrow channel, fairway or anchorage, or where other vessels normally navigate, shall not be required to exhibit the lights or shape prescribed in paragraphs (a) and (b) of this Rule

how do you put up an anchor ball in a small RIB.

You are of course perfectly correct about the 1 metre A flag which of course all dive boats should display, I praps need to measure mine again /forums/images/icons/blush.gif

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[tcm]

Re: hm - anchor ball exemption

hm yes - cept the orig poster states he was "just outside" the channel. Which would seem to be the same "near". So, even if under 7metres he needed an anchor ball, no? As for where to put the anchor ball thing er dunno. Need a tubular radar arch thingy i spose. Or of course....anchor somewhere else if claiming the exemption.

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[Planty]

Re: hm

Not wishing to teach my Grandmother how to suck etc, but, I thought:

ColRegs Rule 5 requires that "every vessel shall at all times maintain a proper look-out by sight and hearing as well as by all available means appropriate in the prevailing circumstances and conditions so as to make a full appraisal of the situation and of the risk of collision.

And that Rule 7(a) states:
"Every vessel shall use all available means appropriate to the prevailing circumstances and conditions to determine if risk of collision exists. If there is any doubt such risk shall be deemed to exist."

Thus would it not be fair to adopt the stance that the moving vessel should have established whether there was risk? They obviously didn't ascertain any such thing thus they are at fault.

Truly I don't give a wotsit just that as someone said earlier the poor chap just seemed to be getting a kicking when all he was really saying was "aren't there some real dipsticks about?". We would all agree there certainly are.

Look forward to seeing you at Mercury. Paul



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[Johnnygil]

Re: Alpha flag size - details

I agree with you whether or not if the flag is too small or no flag surely we dont want to hit the vessel.

Or are they saying that if they collide with a rock its the rocks fault for not displaying a flag .........that will look good on a claims form.

come on I know we are meant to display all the neccessary but I mean its no excuse to collide

Maybe they could not take evading action who knows?

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[tcm]

Re: ahem

Ok, i'll explain again, mebbe not clear.

Spose there's an empty dinghy 200 yds away, say. No anchor ball, no crew on board, no nuthin. You go over to investigate at moderate speed. You obey rule 5 and assimilate - and indeed your lookout saw the thing in the first place. It's a dinghy so the "collision" ain't like ships whacking each other at sea. Anyway, you have an engine to stop on a sixpence - so you're ok with rule 7 cos you can stop no prob and hence no colision likely with a stopped or maybe drifting dinghy.

But suddenly, divers appear in the water. Now, instead of being able to slow down and stop, you must immediately cut the engines to avoid injury to divers. So you might easily hit the dinghy cos you have no control. Or far worse, you might already have whacked a diver with the props.

In these circumstances, the moving vessel isn't in the wrong - the dive boat is at fault - IF they had no anchor ball and IF they had no dive shape of the correct size.

Now, no confirmation one way or the other bout any of this and neither of us were there. Sure i'm not bothered either - except to raise an important and dangerous issue which dive boats can bring upon themselves. But the dive boat is so pleased that he then bounces in with "WAFI" post which if you know what it stands for is somehwat nasty accusing others of being such idiots.

Being a very pleasant chap that you are, you defend him citing other bits of colregs about collsiions - but the collision isn't the problem - it's the propellor-chopped or keel-whacked divers in the water which nobody wants and the diver chap (who seem to be a professional) may have brought about himself.

Or at least of course, if he was obneying all the rules, the thread remains relevant for the other thousands of dive boats without the corrct shapes, and very sorry to the original poster.

I agree that there are dipsticks around. Lots of them all over with no anchor ball for starters.




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[tcm]

Re: read the original pos

This is post by a dive instructor, and the main issue of course is not a collision but that of divers in the water near moving boats

If you look at the orig post - maybe the sailing boat did indeed take evasive action - swerved upwind to stop and dumped the sail as soon as he saw the divers and didn't use the engine to stop - or that's an interpretation of what actually happened...



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[longjohnsilver]

Yes

Have re-read the original post and the RIB was manned and flying an A flag, could have been the required size, we don't know, but no excuse for sailing boat to collide with him, anchor ball or no anchor ball.

They might both have been in the wrong but the sailing boat more wrong than the RIB.

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[tcm]

Re: yes but

>no excuse for sailing boat to collide with him (the dive boat)<

oh yes there was, ithink?

no dive flag, no anchor ball on the dinghy. OK, no problem, the moving boat could see and miss the staionary dive boat, or any boat. There being someone in the dinghy makes little difference really.

But then suddenly there are people in the water. Erk! Good idea now wd be to slow the boat asap - but can't use the engine for fear oof injury to swimmers - so he dumped the sail.

Now, doinking a dive dinghy at lowish speed is no problem whereas a crash tack or using power could be fatal for those in the water.

Indeed, since the dive boat isn't obviosuly a dive boat - the people in the water might be anyone, swimmers adrift - and hence all the more reason slow/stop - and even run gently towards (at least, not run away from) the dinghy with shouting peeps who are possibly in truuble (no anchor or lights or dive shape apparent and so praps most likely just broken and drifting off the channel?)

The collision (esp with rubber duck) is not at all important and NOT why i rasied the issue - the people in the water is of far more concern .

I think the saiboat could easily have beeen doing precisely the right thing. The fact that the dive instructor could "push the boat off" shows that neither was a large craft, surely?


Anyway, anyway, not to worry really ....except that the dive person is an RYA instructor in his profile. Sooo... of course, i am certain to be wrong about this specific instance here, as the guy will most defnitley have had the correct shapes cos he even trains people like mere me as his job, and will have had up the dive shapes and the anchor ball since he was "near" the channel or least would have erred on the side of caution and put up the anchor ball anyway when at anchor, always. Won't he?

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[Mike21]

Re: Alpha flag size - details

Think I must be missing something, but according to original post, sailing boat hit the channel marker first, then the diving boat.
This would suggest that regardless of whether the diving boat was displaying correct size flag, the raggie was not keeping an adequate watch

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[longjohnsilver]

Re: yes but

#The fact that the dive instructor could "push the boat off" shows that neither was a large craft, surely?#

Nah, doesn't mean that at all, you push against almost any other boat from a RIB and you'll be the one to move, be it a supertanker or a small sailing boat

#Indeed, since the dive boat isn't obviosuly a dive boat # Well of course it's a dive boat, he had his A flag up!

Now the one thing I think the RIB skipper did wrong was to anchor in the first place. IMHO when divers down you should never anchor so as to be in a position to manouvre between divers and any approaching boat. Or anchor should be buoyed and ditchable at v short notice.

Cor, anyone would fink you'd done some sort of RYA training course recently!

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