VP MD202B - No compression

[Quandary]

Gary has learnt a lot about VP 2020s, he has also still got a duff one equipped with a load of new ancillaries. I do not think it would be crazy to buy another, either reconditioned by a reliable workshop or a runner that he can take to any tractor workshop and have done up properly. Should cost about £2k and slot straight in with the transmission and all the bits he has already got in place. To go for a Nanni Or a Beta is going to set him back more than three times as much. The 2020 is still well supported as referenced above so he should get another 20 years out of it. Many marine diesels are swapped out because of the anti Volvo sentiment you get in places like this, combined with the failure of the ancillary bits like starters generators etc. many have only used up half their lifespan particularly if fresh water cooled.
Think about it, a 2020 is 20 years old max. in a yacht it will have averaged perhaps 100 hrs per year, 2000 hours, it should run for five times that. With what he knows now Gary is going to be able to pick a gem.

 

[RichardS]

A couple of comments and quick replies to a few of the comments.



That is exactly what I think is the case here!




1) The 2nd of August Gemini was lifted in. It took over an hour of perseverance to get the engine to start, during which the Yard Manager was involved. Fuel lines were re-bled etc. When she did start we went for a 5 minute trip up the river, before returning once it was noticed that it was over heating (this wad due to me incorrectly re-fitting the heat exchanger). I then spent a couple of weeks trying to cure a oil leak, during this time would have been the last time it started. The engine has ben cranked at least on a weekly basis.

2) Most definately, plus the raw water pipes were disconnected as the raw water pump was continually being removed.

3) The engineer did not see anything that indicated the head gasket had blown.




Yes, there is a vent fitted. I also installed a filter after the pump (in case the impeller ever breaks) and a flow alarm in case of a blockage or inadvertantly not opening the seacock.

To me it is clear that the work stated as being completed, never was, and that the engine was in fact never stripped down. The valves are in such a state, it could be that they have vever been cut and lapped, certainly not in recent history, same goes for the cylinder honing. I am confident that the only work completed was the repainting. With an engineers report stating that in their opinion the work was never completed and with the photos as evidence, I think that would be enough to win a Small Claims Court action, I could get the engineer to attend and give evidence if I thought it would help.

I'm assuming from your thorough reply and your well designed raw water delivery system that there was definitely no water at all in any of the cylinders when the engine was stripped down and the engineer would include this fact in a report and be prepared to testify in court.

It is obviously very difficult to prove beyond doubt but based on your responses Gary I just can't see how anything that you did or didn't do could have caused the bores to end up like that during the period after the engine last ran and the recent head removal. Others may well have a different view ..... and they might well be right so a qualified engineers written opinion would be essential.

Assuming that the engineer's written assessment were the same as mine, I think you have a strong case based of the recon engine being not of merchantable quailty even though quite a long time has passed. Engines are expensive and are supposed to last many years so can reasonably be judged against a different time scale than a steam iron or toaster.

I'm sure that there must be something on the engine which identifies it as having been supplied by the supplier so as long as you have plenty of advertising photos of the engine you bought and the same engine in the boat and then out on the bench again, I can't imagine that the supplier would try to argue that it's a different engine.

It's certainly worth contacting the supplier and perhaps being prepared to accept your original purchase price back but with the observation that if you are forced to go to Small Claims you will be adding all the additional costs you have will accrued. The "carrot and stick" approach might encourage a quicker and less stressful settlement.

Good luck.

Richard

 

[PaulRainbow]

Engines are expensive and are supposed to last many years so can reasonably be judged against a different time scale than a steam iron or toaster.

True, but this was bought 14 months ago. If it was a used car, costing several thousands of pounds, you would stand no chance at all in court if you had a problem at 14 months, let alone a secondhand boat engine.

I'd still be tempted to threaten them though, never know your luck. Although i doubt someone dodgy enough to sell scrap like this as rebuilt would be to phased by a threat of court action at this stage.

 

[VicS]

True, but this was bought 14 months ago. If it was a used car, costing several thousands of pounds, you would stand no chance at all in court if you had a problem at 14 months, let alone a secondhand boat engine.

I'd still be tempted to threaten them though, never know your luck. Although i doubt someone dodgy enough to sell scrap like this as rebuilt would be to phased by a threat of court action at this stage.

I think as part of the small claims court procedure you have to make some attempt to settle a dispute before going to court anyway

 

[pvb]

I think as part of the small claims court procedure you have to make some attempt to settle a dispute before going to court anyway

Theoretically, yes, but practically, no. Proceedings can still be issued without any attempt to settle.

 

[PaulRainbow]

I think as part of the small claims court procedure you have to make some attempt to settle a dispute before going to court anyway

Yes, usual thing is to write and tell them what the problem is and what you want them to do to rectify the issue. Give them a week or two and then write again, giving them a deadline to settle (usually 7 or 14 days, your choice anyway). If they still have not settled then write a letter of intent, again setting a deadline and pointing out you will be adding charges and interest. When that deadline is reached, instigate court action.

 

[PaulRainbow]

Theoretically, yes, but practically, no. Proceedings can still be issued without any attempt to settle.

You would have to give them an opportunity to put things right. Under new legislation they only get one chance of a repair (at least that's how it is with used cars).

 

[Quandary]

I think as part of the small claims court procedure you have to make some attempt to settle a dispute before going to court anyway

Yep, send them a recorded delivery letter outlining your complaint as politely as possible, don't threaten them, say that you believe they have no reason not to be reasonable (as you will later be reading it out in court and handing it up to the judge), if you are lucky they will ignore it, even luckier if they tell you to get stuffed, if you can provoke them using politeness all the better. In loads of cases this is where you win it as when you present your evidence as a reasonable man seeking a reasonable solution while they have responded rudely you do not need much more to get the judge onside. Small claims cases are easier to win if your opponent is an obvious a**hole and in my experience the majority choose to behave that way.

 

[pvb]

You would have to give them an opportunity to put things right. Under new legislation they only get one chance of a repair (at least that's how it is with used cars).

As I posted, that's the desired and theoretical approach. The practical reality is that court action can be started without it.

 

[Jokani]

Thanks for all the advice.

I can't give them the opportunity to put it right, all trust has gone, if I returned the engine to the purchaser for the work to be completed, I would still need to have the engine stripped again to confirm that the work had indeed been done this time.

It's certainly worth contacting the supplier and perhaps being prepared to accept your original purchase price back but with the observation that if you are forced to go to Small Claims you will be adding all the additional costs you have will accrued. The "carrot and stick" approach might encourage a quicker and less stressful settlement.

Yep, I think this could be best/most reasonable route to go.

Th engineer has just set some new photos, the rings are clearly seized;

Along with the state of the valves, I think that confirms why there was little/no compression.

 

[NormanS]

While sympathetic, I feel that the big stumbling block in your complaint is that you had the engine running several months ago. From that, and the photos of the engine's current condition, and the fact that it now won't run, it would be easy to claim that any deterioration has taken place since you had the engine running.

Sorry to sound so negative, but that's how I see it.

 

[lw395]

While sympathetic, I feel that the big stumbling block in your complaint is that you had the engine running several months ago. From that, and the photos of the engine's current condition, and the fact that it now won't run, it would be easy to claim that any deterioration has taken place since you had the engine running.

Sorry to sound so negative, but that's how I see it.

I'm afraid I think a lot of deterioration has happened in the time the OP has had the engine.
The state the outside has got into makes it plain it has not been kept dry.
It does look like it was not the best engine when he got it, but it did run.
I think the OP might be well advised to look forward not back.

 

[Heckler]

Here is an update, the news is not good, I have been wasting my time, and yours as well.

I took the day off on Thursday, the engine was removed and taken to an engineering workshop.

The engineers first thought was that the engine was previously from a yacht that had been sunk and salvaged due to the amount of rust an corrosion that was found.

Surprising as the engine I purchased was supposed to have the following work completed:

Here are some initial pictures, clearly the head had never been removed and NONE of the work listed was completed:

Picture gallery

I feel particularly cheated, as when I discovered that then exhaust elbow supplied was unsafe, and wrote to the company I purchased the engine from, and I was given further assurances the work stated had been completed:

This is my email detailing my concerns:

And the response I received was:

It is the engineers opinion that the engine would not start due to poor/no compression and that this was caused by the poor state of the valves and that the piston rings have seized, plus what ever other issues have yet to be found when the the sump and pistons are removed.

I'll take some time to consider what I should do next.

I have a lot of time an money invested in this engine, I have purchased and fitted lots of new parts, bought and fitted engine bearers etc. My initial thoughts are to have engineers I trust buy an overhaul kit and rebuild the engine. That is the least hassle to me, but more importantly it will get me sailing early next year, with an engine that I can then have confidence in.

In the meantime, I will do all that I can to recover not only the cost of the engine but also the considerable additional costs that I have accumulated, and loss of earnings for the time I have wasted. I think I been involved in a fraud, so I could also look at involving the police or trading standards.

I welcome your thoughts.

Wooh! just picked up, It was sh agged when you bought it! Interesting in his description, the valves couldnt have been lapped or renewed, they need to be clean and shiny to get the sucker on plus anny one worth his salt would have scraped the carbon off. Just be careful that if you have been cranking ng for a lot of time as I suspect yiu have, with the seawater cock open, you could have got water in to the bores yourself!
Small claims court time I think, As for the engine, as much time and money spent, get your man to rebuild using the website bits i pointed you to.
Stu

 

[Heckler]

Garry, my heart goes out to you, I have been there myself having bought a Westerly Pentland with a rubbish engine. Lost a complete season, Basic engine ran but very difficult to start. In addition, previous owner made a Horlicks of changing the seawater pump seals a few weeks before he sold the boat to me. Result, the engine got filled to the brim with seawater.

In my case I persevered with doing a series of partial rebuilds ending with a full strip down BUT would have been better off had I bit the bullet and bought a new 30HP Perkins Perama (same as your engine) to replace my old MD2B. However as parts can be got from “parts4 engines” a lot cheaper than “Rip Off Volvo” your engine may be worth repairing.

I wonder if you should ask the engineers to take some measurements which should not add too much to your bill.

1. Measure the ovality of the bores
2. Try and establish if the bores have been honed recently (see Note ‘a’ below)
3. Check for wear on valve seats and guide
4. Check for any signs of cracks in the block (see Note ‘b’ below)
5. Check for any signs of cracks in the head
6. Look at condition of crankshaft big ends and at least main bearings
7. Look at the level of corrosion in the cooling jackets.

NOTE ‘a’ In pic 3 of 8, if you look at the right hand cylinder, I am sure I can see signs of scratch marks, could this be signs of some form of honing by the vendor using just emery paper or was this done by your engineers to see the extent of the corrosion.

NOTE ‘b’ In pic 2 of 8, the cooling hole second from the left (top) in the block does look as if there may be a crack. The condition of the cooling jacket is not great perhaps suggesting a lack of antifreeze / corrosion inhibiter.

Two reasons for suggesting the above measurements etc (a) establish if the engine is worth rebuilding with a full or partial spares kit from “Parts4Engines” (b) to collate evidence in the event you go to court.

Section deleted as may be counter productive

In terms of rebuilding the engine, if the bores are not oval, the crank is ok and I am wrong about the crack in the block, I think you could rebuild the engine. I would not be too worried about the rust in the bores as I feel they could clean up with just a a flap wheel which is one way an engine block can be honed. Ideally it should be a 3 legged spider with carborundum strips but flap wheel is all I have ever used in Volvo, BMC and Ford engines.

To all other contributors, please feel free to tear my post to bits but at the end of it, we need to provide Garry with all the help we can. I also think there is a lesson we can all learn about certain companies selling
"reconditioned" engines (for reconditioned engines, read ---quick spay job)

just got this, Woohh! He has been had over, bad engine, compounded by his inexperience. I really thought bent valves caused by his inexperience. Spoke to him for quite a long time. My view now is, bad engine to start, carbon in engine proves lie about work done, then crank crank crank, seawater back in to cylinders inevitable. Sea water doesnt take long to cause rust, day or so, then rust siezes rings gives what we see.
Agree that if his new engineer isnt too pricey and block and crank ok, then a rebuild with bits from www.parts4engines.com is the way forward.
Stu

 

[RichardS]

just got this, Woohh! He has been had over, bad engine, compounded by his inexperience. I really thought bent valves caused by his inexperience. Spoke to him for quite a long time. My view now is, bad engine to start, carbon in engine proves lie about work done, then crank crank crank, seawater back in to cylinders inevitable. Sea water doesnt take long to cause rust, day or so, then rust siezes rings gives what we see.
Agree that if his new engineer isnt too pricey and block and crank ok, then a rebuild with bits from www.parts4engines.com is the way forward.
Stu

I think that if you read the posts since Gary's "stripped engine" post you will find that it is extremely unlikely that Gary has introduced any water into the cylinders. My list of questions in post #167 and Vic's important supplementary tried to pin this down and Gary answered those.

Richard

 

[pvb]

Small claims court time I think,

I think not, waste of time and money now.

 

[ghostlymoron]

There's no reason why a re-build and small claim can't take place simultaneously provided no evidence is destroyed. Cost is only about £100 I believe.
PS in my experience (limited) it's possible to free up stuck piston rings using Plus Gas and a small screwdriver. It's probably better to renew though but they are expensive.

 

[lw395]

There's no reason why a re-build and small claim can't take place simultaneously provided no evidence is destroyed. Cost is only about £100 I believe.
PS in my experience (limited) it's possible to free up stuck piston rings using Plus Gas and a small screwdriver. It's probably better to renew though but they are expensive.

I've got old engines running by removing the rings and cleaning out the grooves with a jeweller's screwdriver. So long as the ring gaps are not wildly over spec, the engine will run fine.
You can renew everything, but it gets pricey.

 

[lw395]

I think that if you read the posts since Gary's "stripped engine" post you will find that it is extremely unlikely that Gary has introduced any water into the cylinders. My list of questions in post #167 and Vic's important supplementary tried to pin this down and Gary answered those.

Richard

Sorry, I disagree.
He's had the engine in a MAB connected to a wet exhaust and not run the engine.
The state of those rings and pistons looks consistent with the cylinders having rusted since the motor last ran.

Equally it does not look like the rebuilder took the pistons out and clean them, just did a top end job. But if the bores were not worn, just a bit glazed, that is arguably a sound way forwards.
it was a cheap 'recon' engine not a Ducati Blueprinting job.
The labour costs for a no holds barred, better than new, rebuild are not small. That's why Beta get tot sell a lot of engines when the old Volvo or whatever could have been rebuildable.

It's a grey scale. The Op may have got a bit less than he deserved for what he paid. The engine vendor may have taken chances and cut a few minor corners, but that is the world of secondhand engines. Too much time has passed, and I don't think the OP has done everything in a timely fashion to sort things out. That's partly for health reasons, such is the cost of getting old and not being well. I have total sympathy for the OP in that (been there!), but I don't think he has much of a case.
With hindsight, he should have taken the vendor to task earlier, not overheated the engine, not let the outside get rusty etc etc. But your health has a way of coming first.