VP MD202B - No compression

[philwebb]

Well Gary, all is revealed! I would tend to agree with your engineer, it looks as if the engine has been underwater. Perhaps only for a short time, but there has been water in the cylinders. I've seen the inside of engines from a scrapyard in far better condition.
I hope that your bill of sale has the engine number on it. When you take him to Small Claims Court the first thing that the vendor will say that it is not the engine he sold you. I hope that you do take him to Court but it can be a long winded and sometimes unsatisfactory procedure. For a small fee on the website www.192.com you will be able to see if he has CCJs already. Good luck, and if you are unsuccessful you can always name and shame. Or contact the "Watchdog" programme, at least this warns other people. Unfortunately the people who perpetrate these scams are thick skinned and know all the loopholes.

 

[lw395]

From reading the blog, I'm unclear how long ago this engine was installed?
It has obviously rusted a lot on the outside, I know the paint jobs engines get when 'reconditioned' don't really amount to much, but has it got very damp for a long time since being installed?
It certainly could have done with a better oil leak </britishbikejokes>

The exhaust elbox is a throwaway item to some extent. But maybe its rapid (?) demise is partially down to an exhaust system which is too wet and/or restrictive? This might be consistent with the water damage to the bores?

That bore rusting is fresh. I don't think the engine has run since that happened?
Not sure it's consistent with 'turning the crank by hand' or whatever.

Is all this consistent with head gasket failure?
The state of the cylinders looks a bit like water up the exhaust from failing to start, or even just leaving the thing with a wet exhaust and not running it.

I may be getting the wrong end of the stick here, regarding time scales, but I have a bad feeling that we will struggle to prove the problem is down to the rebuild.
How many hours has it run in your possession, over how many months?
The cynic in me says used engine warranties are godd for between 6 months and 20 minutes...

My personal experience with cars is not great with 'rebuit/repaired' engines. Unless they are done by seriously excellent mechanics, they are rarely as good as something that's never been apart IMHO.
My gut feeling (totally aware I don't have enough facts) is this is not going to end well.
I would suggest serious consideration of binning it before it gets any worse.
And before getting legal, you need a coherent explaination of how its current, shocking state is solely down to defects present when you got it.
I think other posters may be leading you to a severe disappointment on the legal front.

Sory but I feel the above needed to be said.

 

[scottie]

You should have rejected it at the first sign on a problem and by working on it and posting your step by step problems have established your mechanical acum thus giving the vendor a way out of any obligations.

 

[Jcorstorphine]

Garry, my heart goes out to you, I have been there myself having bought a Westerly Pentland with a rubbish engine. Lost a complete season, Basic engine ran but very difficult to start. In addition, previous owner made a Horlicks of changing the seawater pump seals a few weeks before he sold the boat to me. Result, the engine got filled to the brim with seawater.

In my case I persevered with doing a series of partial rebuilds ending with a full strip down BUT would have been better off had I bit the bullet and bought a new 30HP Perkins Perama (same as your engine) to replace my old MD2B. However as parts can be got from “parts4 engines” a lot cheaper than “Rip Off Volvo” your engine may be worth repairing.

I wonder if you should ask the engineers to take some measurements which should not add too much to your bill.

1. Measure the ovality of the bores
2. Try and establish if the bores have been honed recently (see Note ‘a’ below)
3. Check for wear on valve seats and guide
4. Check for any signs of cracks in the block (see Note ‘b’ below)
5. Check for any signs of cracks in the head
6. Look at condition of crankshaft big ends and at least main bearings
7. Look at the level of corrosion in the cooling jackets.

NOTE ‘a’ In pic 3 of 8, if you look at the right hand cylinder, I am sure I can see signs of scratch marks, could this be signs of some form of honing by the vendor using just emery paper or was this done by your engineers to see the extent of the corrosion.

NOTE ‘b’ In pic 2 of 8, the cooling hole second from the left (top) in the block does look as if there may be a crack. The condition of the cooling jacket is not great perhaps suggesting a lack of antifreeze / corrosion inhibiter.

Two reasons for suggesting the above measurements etc (a) establish if the engine is worth rebuilding with a full or partial spares kit from “Parts4Engines” (b) to collate evidence in the event you go to court.

Section deleted as may be counter productive

In terms of rebuilding the engine, if the bores are not oval, the crank is ok and I am wrong about the crack in the block, I think you could rebuild the engine. I would not be too worried about the rust in the bores as I feel they could clean up with just a a flap wheel which is one way an engine block can be honed. Ideally it should be a 3 legged spider with carborundum strips but flap wheel is all I have ever used in Volvo, BMC and Ford engines.

To all other contributors, please feel free to tear my post to bits but at the end of it, we need to provide Garry with all the help we can. I also think there is a lesson we can all learn about certain companies selling
"reconditioned" engines (for reconditioned engines, read ---quick spay job)

 

[VicS]

I was not congratulating myself and apologised at the outset and in my later post.
I was exposing the armchair 'experts' who disagreed with my contention - I did not claim to be the only person with the same opinion nor did I claim to be original or first with that view.

I apologise to the forum and especially Gary, for not seeing this thread earlier and posting earlier too.

The problem is this forum gets littered with the output and advice of people who have no real knowledge of the subject. It can make seeing the wood for the trees more difficult.

I do not believe the photos of the engine's current condition in any way support your views that all the troubles were the result of a poor recon job having been done before Gary bought it. IMHO All they show a that water has entered the engine since the last time it was run.

 

[NormanB]

I do not believe the photos of the engine's current condition in any way support your views that all the troubles were the result of a poor recon job having been done before Gary bought it. IMHO All they show a that water has entered the engine since the last time it was run.

I had two views. One that said keep an open mind when fault finding (i.e. That it may have nothing to do with timing) and the second that the failure to fit new rings after honing made me fear for the true state of the engine. That's all no prediction as to definitive cause.

You may or may not be right about the engine's demise and the engine rebuilder will be grateful for your words. NOt sure Gary will but hey - that's what forums are for.

 

[RichardS]

Perhaps Gary could answer the following points. It will probably all be in the various threads somewhere but having the info in one place would be helpful in assisting him.

1) How long was the period between when the motor last ran properly and when then photos were taken?

2) When the engine was being cranked repeatedly but failing to start, was the seawater cooling seacock definitely closed?

3) Was there any evidence after the stripdown that the head gasket had blown ... such as burning around the gasket adjacent to the bores or water in the cylinders?

I am assuming that during the repeated cranking there was never any evidence of hydrolocking as such an occurence would not lead one to suspect that there was no compression but rather the opposite.

Richard

 

[VicS]

Perhaps Gary could answer the following points. It will probably all be in the various threads somewhere but having the info in one place would be helpful in assisting him.

1) How long was the period between when the motor last ran properly and when then photos were taken?

2) When the engine was being cranked repeatedly but failing to start, was the seawater cooling seacock definitely closed?

3) Was there any evidence after the stripdown that the head gasket had blown?

I am assuming that during the repeated cranking there was never any evidence of hydrolocking as such an occurence would not lead one to suspect that there was no compression.

Richard

Also relevant perhaps is whether or not a vented anti syphon loop was fitted in the raw water circuit.. (with these engines it has to be fitted in the pipework between the pump and the HE)

( I believe the engine was running in August)

 

[lw395]

Also relevant perhaps is whether or not a vented anti syphon loop was fitted in the raw water circuit.. (with these engines it has to be fitted in the pipework between the pump and the HE)

( I believe the engine was running in August)

A good question, althoguh whether it's necessary depends on the height of the mixing elbow above/below the waterline. Curious why it cannot go after the HE?

 

[VicS]

A good question, althoguh whether it's necessary depends on the height of the mixing elbow above/below the waterline. Curious why it cannot go after the HE?

Design. Look at the engine diagrams
The outlet end cap of the HE connect directly with the exhaust elbow. I suppose you could fudge together some bodge but it can quite simply be located in the pump to HE hose work.

 

[Jokani]

A couple of comments and quick replies to a few of the comments.

"reconditioned" engines (for reconditioned engines, read ---quick spay job)

That is exactly what I think is the case here!

Perhaps Gary could answer the following points. It will probably all be in the various threads somewhere but having the info in one place would be helpful in assisting him.

1) How long was the period between when the motor last ran properly and when then photos were taken?

2) When the engine was being cranked repeatedly but failing to start, was the seawater cooling seacock definitely closed?

3) Was there any evidence after the stripdown that the head gasket had blown ... such as burning around the gasket adjacent to the bores or water in the cylinders?

I am assuming that during the repeated cranking there was never any evidence of hydrolocking as such an occurence would not lead one to suspect that there was no compression but rather the opposite.

Richard

1) The 2nd of August Gemini was lifted in. It took over an hour of perseverance to get the engine to start, during which the Yard Manager was involved. Fuel lines were re-bled etc. When she did start we went for a 5 minute trip up the river, before returning once it was noticed that it was over heating (this wad due to me incorrectly re-fitting the heat exchanger). I then spent a couple of weeks trying to cure a oil leak, during this time would have been the last time it started. The engine has ben cranked at least on a weekly basis.

2) Most definately, plus the raw water pipes were disconnected as the raw water pump was continually being removed.

3) The engineer did not see anything that indicated the head gasket had blown.

Also relevant perhaps is whether or not a vented anti syphon loop was fitted in the raw water circuit.. (with these engines it has to be fitted in the pipework between the pump and the HE)

Yes, there is a vent fitted. I also installed a filter after the pump (in case the impeller ever breaks) and a flow alarm in case of a blockage or inadvertantly not opening the seacock.

To me it is clear that the work stated as being completed, never was, and that the engine was in fact never stripped down. The valves are in such a state, it could be that they have vever been cut and lapped, certainly not in recent history, same goes for the cylinder honing. I am confident that the only work completed was the repainting. With an engineers report stating that in their opinion the work was never completed and with the photos as evidence, I think that would be enough to win a Small Claims Court action, I could get the engineer to attend and give evidence if I thought it would help.

 

[PaulRainbow]

With an engineers report stating that in their opinion the work was never completed and with the photos as evidence, I think that would be enough to win a Small Claims Court action, I could get the engineer to attend and give evidence if I thought it would help.

I think you'd win hands down Gary.

I'd be asking for a full refund, plus everything you've spent on the engine trying to fix it.

Or, if your engineer thinks it's a viable repair (doesn't look like it from the pics), ask them for everything you have spent so far, plus whatever it would cost to get it sorted properly.

Give them 7 days to respond then send them a "letter of intent", advising them you will be taking them to court and will add on costs and interest.

 

[VicS]

I think you'd win hands down Gary.

I'd be asking for a full refund, plus everything you've spent on the engine trying to fix it.

Or, if your engineer thinks it's a viable repair (doesn't look like it from the pics), ask them for everything you have spent so far, plus whatever it would cost to get it sorted properly.

Give them 7 days to respond then send them a "letter of intent", advising them you will be taking them to court and will add on costs and interest.

But beware of the battle being just between two so called "engineers".
To take it to court I'd think it essential to have a report from an Engineer whose credentials the court will accept without question. Someone with C.Eng status perhaps or membership of a relevant professional body such as the YDSA.

 

[lw395]

The outside of the engine is in a poor state for even the sketchiest of re-sprays and being looked after since August?
When did you actually take delivery of the engine?
From your blog I got the impression it was much longer ago?

Also, admitting the engine has been overheated puts you on dodgy ground.
Overheat, head warp/gasket filure, coolant in cylinders would be consistent with what I see in the photos.
It wasn't running on 3 cylinders in that state.

 

[VicS]

The outside of the engine is in a poor state for even the sketchiest of re-sprays and being looked after since August?
When did you actually take delivery of the engine?
From your blog I got the impression it was much longer ago?

Also, admitting the engine has been overheated puts you on dodgy ground.
Overheat, head warp/gasket filure, coolant in cylinders would be consistent with what I see in the photos.
It wasn't running on 3 cylinders in that state.

October last year when he said, "Just bit the bullet and purchased a MD2020B to replace a MD2B in a Westerly Centaur over the winter."

Read more at http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?443515-New-Engine-Do-I-Need-A-New-Prop#mtHkoBQkT4gSClgX.99

 

[pvb]

Also, admitting the engine has been overheated puts you on dodgy ground.
Overheat, head warp/gasket filure, coolant in cylinders would be consistent with what I see in the photos.
It wasn't running on 3 cylinders in that state.

I have to agree that the outcome of a court hearing is by no means certain. I don't think the OP ever answered the question about the engine serial number - if it wasn't on the bill the supplier will simply claim it's a different engine. Sadly, after all the messing about with the engine since August, I don't think it's going to help trying to take the supplier to court. Probably best just to get the thing running if possible, re-install it and enjoy the boat.

 

[PaulRainbow]

But beware of the battle being just between two so called "engineers".
To take it to court I'd think it essential to have a report from an Engineer whose credentials the court will accept without question. Someone with C.Eng status perhaps or membership of a relevant professional body such as the YDSA.

I would normally agree with that Vic (wouldn't hurt here), but the photo evidence doesn't support a rebuilt engine.

 

[PaulRainbow]

October last year when he said, "Just bit the bullet and purchased a MD2020B to replace a MD2B in a Westerly Centaur over the winter."

Read more at http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?443515-New-Engine-Do-I-Need-A-New-Prop#mtHkoBQkT4gSClgX.99

Forget my last couple of posts then, i didn't realise it was so long ago. After all this time i doubt the court would entertain a claim.

 

[Jokani]

October last year when he said, "Just bit the bullet and purchased a MD2020B to replace a MD2B in a Westerly Centaur over the winter."

To clarify further. The engine was purchased in October 2015, is sat in my office during the winter, during which time I replaced the following:

1) Exhaust elbow
2) Thermostat
3) Raw water pump
4) Lift pump
5) Starter motor

In hindsight, a bad decision, the money spent here would have been far better put towards a new engine. But, I am where I am! I didn't intend to replace these from the outset, just got caught up in to trying to make it as good/reliable as possible.

I had a hip replacement in the on January the 4th, I expected to be up and running around after a month, but recovery took much longer and I couldn't start the engine installation process until April/May time. It took a while as I replaced the fuel tank, engine bearers, just about everything, and I didn't get the engine itself connected until late July 2016. Lifted in the water early August, problems since well documented.

I don't think the OP ever answered the question about the engine serial number - if it wasn't on the bill the supplier will simply claim it's a different engine.

Just checked, no there isn't a serial number on the invoice. Bugger, would have been good to have closed that loop hole.

 

[earlybird]

My sympathy Gary. I know that it's easy to spend other peoples' money, but bear in mind that with LIBS coming up in the New Year, vendors such as Beta are very keen to do deals, over the 'phone as well. A new B20 / Nanni will be like a Rolls-Royce compared with that Volvo, which needs a lot of ££££s spent on it anyway.
Beta will make feet to drop onto your bearers to ease fitting and will approve and provide a 40 mm exhaust if that helps.
A new prop would needed if the Volvo is cack-handed.
The Volvo will be worth a bit for spares.
Just a thought.