VP MD202B - No compression

[Jokani]

Thanks for all the advice, much appreciated!

A quick update, the yard arranged for a local diesel engineer to visit Gemini on Friday. He spent sometime on board, removed the timing gear cover, rocker cover etc. Timing confirmed OK, no apparent reason for loss of compression.

Gemini was lifted out at high tide this morning.

A have the day off on Thursday to remove the engine and take to the engineers. They will remove the head and take it from there.

As soon as I know anything further I will update the thread.

Once again I realy appreciate the help and advice.

 

[pvb]

Thanks for the update. Fingers crossed it's something relatively simple!

 

[NormanB]

Well I guess it will all become clear once the head is removed.

 

[Heckler]

Thanks for all the advice, much appreciated!

A quick update, the yard arranged for a local diesel engineer to visit Gemini on Friday. He spent sometime on board, removed the timing gear cover, rocker cover etc. Timing confirmed OK, no apparent reason for loss of compression.

Gemini was lifted out at high tide this morning.

A have the day off on Thursday to remove the engine and take to the engineers. They will remove the head and take it from there.

As soon as I know anything further I will update the thread.

Once again I realy appreciate the help and advice.

Gary
if major stuff needs doing, dont forget to check prices against www.parts4engines.com http://www.parts4engines.com/perkins100-series-perama-m25-m30-m35/
or Asap Supplies.
Stu

 

[Jokani]

Gary
if major stuff needs doing, dont forget to check prices against www.parts4engines.com http://www.parts4engines.com/perkins100-series-perama-m25-m30-m35/
or Asap Supplies.
Stu

Cheers for the heads-up on that Stu, pretty good price for an overhaul kit, or a gasket and seal set.

 

[Jokani]

Here is an update, the news is not good, I have been wasting my time, and yours as well.

I took the day off on Thursday, the engine was removed and taken to an engineering workshop.

The engineers first thought was that the engine was previously from a yacht that had been sunk and salvaged due to the amount of rust an corrosion that was found.

Surprising as the engine I purchased was supposed to have the following work completed:

Here are some initial pictures, clearly the head had never been removed and NONE of the work listed was completed:

Picture gallery

I feel particularly cheated, as when I discovered that then exhaust elbow supplied was unsafe, and wrote to the company I purchased the engine from, and I was given further assurances the work stated had been completed:

This is my email detailing my concerns:

And the response I received was:

It is the engineers opinion that the engine would not start due to poor/no compression and that this was caused by the poor state of the valves and that the piston rings have seized, plus what ever other issues have yet to be found when the the sump and pistons are removed.

I'll take some time to consider what I should do next.

I have a lot of time an money invested in this engine, I have purchased and fitted lots of new parts, bought and fitted engine bearers etc. My initial thoughts are to have engineers I trust buy an overhaul kit and rebuild the engine. That is the least hassle to me, but more importantly it will get me sailing early next year, with an engine that I can then have confidence in.

In the meantime, I will do all that I can to recover not only the cost of the engine but also the considerable additional costs that I have accumulated, and loss of earnings for the time I have wasted. I think I been involved in a fraud, so I could also look at involving the police or trading standards.

I welcome your thoughts.

 

[anoccasionalyachtsman]

That's sickening. I doubt that the police will want to get involved, but Trading Standards is a must, and at some point you must let everyone know who this was.

 

[pvb]

Oh dear, that's not good news. As the engine is partially disassembled already, your plan of having it overhauled is probably the quickest/cheapest way of ensuring you get to use the boat as soon as possible.

May I ask whether you bought it using a credit card? If you did, you should lodge a disputed transaction claim with your card provider, which should get you a refund.

 

[VicS]

Here is an update, the news is not good, I have been wasting my time, and yours as well.



I welcome your thoughts.

But you had it running OK but for an oil leak .............. If it is as bad as the report and pictures indicate how come it would start and run OK until you tackled the oil leak.

 

[Jcorstorphine]

That's sickening. I doubt that the police will want to get involved, but Trading Standards is a must, and at some point you must let everyone know who this was.

So sorry to hear your news, while I agree you should name and shame, you need to watch for the vendor taking action against you. He could say for instance that because you had problems in starting the engine after removing the fuel pump, it had been backflooded with seawater due to it not starting as it had not been bled correctly. He could argue that the engine was working ok as you did say it ran when you first installed it.
However there are some points where the vendor has been wrong in terms of the description ref exhaust bend.
You could approach the vendor with the facts and look for 125% refund in return for entering into a non-disclosure agreement.
Wish you all the best to get to a satisfactory outcome.

 

[RichardS]

Jeez Gary ...... in my donkey's years of experience the only time I have ever seen bores like that is on engines that have been lying in scrapyards out in the rain for years. I have never seen bores like that on a recently running engine, whatever condition it might have been in up to the point where it stopped running. I am really surprised that the engine ever ran at all.

With those photos and your correspondence with the vendor I would ask for a full refund otherwise you will start small claims proceedings. A report from your current engineer would definitely help but I suspect that the CC Judge would rule in your favour on the basis of those pics alone as these Judges are not stupid.

Richard

 

[earlybird]

I think that you will definitely need a formal report on the engine if you are going the CC route. "We" all know that the cylinder head hasn't been off for any pre-sale work, but the CC lawyers won't be able to judge that.
Against you will be the fact that you fitted and had the engine running in a boat several months ago. The vendor could use that as a plausible defence.
His response to your exhaust elbow problem shows that he is not easily embarrassed.

 

[NormanB]

Gary I am really very sorry to have my worst fears confirmed and It gives me no pleasure to have been the 'harbinger of doom. Your options now are not technical but financial. For sure that engine can be resurrected but at what cost and what will you have at the end of it? An old refurbished engine. It may be better use of your capital to chase compensation from the dishonest seller and repower with an equivalent capacity Beta.

In review:


#121 I cannot imagine how any competent engine rebuilder would ever consider honing bores and then refitting the original piston rings. It is just so much work to strip an engine to risk taking such a shortcut and risk the need to do the job again very soon. If the person was prepared to do this maybe they used the old head gasket as well!!!!!

I would have serious reservations about the true state of this engine.

Sorry.

#135 Without wishing to be the harbinger of doom I have seen many a fault finding 'expert' wrong footed by hanging on to that sort of assumption. I do not profess to know what the problem is, but a logical fault finding approach that does not assume anything is much more likely to derive success.

#143 Well I guess it will all become clear once the head is removed.

Despite the protestations and flawed statements of ghostlymoron at #130, 136 whose perverse logic has now been so cruelly exposed - as predicted.

 

[RichardS]

Gary I am really very sorry to have my worst fears confirmed and It gives me no pleasure to have been the 'harbinger of doom.

In review:


#121 I cannot imagine how any competent engine rebuilder would ever consider honing bores and then refitting the original piston rings. It is just so much work to strip an engine to risk taking such a shortcut and risk the need to do the job again very soon. If the person was prepared to do this maybe they used the old head gasket as well!!!!!

I would have serious reservations about the true state of this engine.

Sorry.

#135 Without wishing to be the harbinger of doom I have seen many a fault finding 'expert' wrong footed by hanging on to that sort of assumption. I do not profess to know what the problem is, but a logical fault finding approach that does not assume anything is much more likely to derive success.

#143 Well I guess it will all become clear once the head is removed.

Despite the protestations and flawed statements of ghostlymoron at #130, 136 whose perverse logic has now been so cruelly exposed - as predicted.

Different strokes for different folks, of course, but I would not have chosen to post such a self-congratulatory post, especially as the first suggestion of the entire problem being caused by very poor engine condition, specifically rings / bores / gaskets etc was a very very long time before your post #121.

Richard

 

[ghostlymoron]

Different strokes for different folks, of course, but I would not have chosen to post such a self-congratulatory post, especially as the first suggestion of the entire problem being caused by very poor engine condition, specifically rings / bores / gaskets etc was a very very long time before your post #121.

Richard

Yes I agree it's in poor taste to say "I told you so". How clever of you, Norman.
I think the op's best course of action is OFT for advice then small claims court to recover some money to put towards a new Beta.
I've no regrets about my advice which would have eliminated the possibility of an error in re-assembly.

 

[NormanB]

I was not congratulating myself and apologised at the outset and in my later post.
I was exposing the armchair 'experts' who disagreed with my contention - I did not claim to be the only person with the same opinion nor did I claim to be original or first with that view.

I apologise to the forum and especially Gary, for not seeing this thread earlier and posting earlier too.

The problem is this forum gets littered with the output and advice of people who have no real knowledge of the subject. It can make seeing the wood for the trees more difficult.

 

[NormanB]

Yes I agree it's in poor taste to say "I told you so". How clever of you, Norman.
I think the op's best course of action is OFT for advice then small claims court to recover some money to put towards a new Beta.
I've no regrets about my advice which would have eliminated the possibility of an error in re-assembly.

Do you take any responsibility for the technical and legal advice you offer with 'gay abandon'.

I do however accept you are the arbiter of good taste.

 

[ghostlymoron]

Advice is advice and if free should be treated with caution. I've learnt who to trust on here.

Do you take any responsibility for the technical and legal advice you offer with 'gay abandon'.

I do however accept you are the arbiter of good taste.

 

[dom]

I was not congratulating myself and apologised at the outset and in my later post.

I was exposing the armchair 'experts' who disagreed with my contention - I did not claim to be the only person with the same opinion nor did I claim to be original or first with that view.

I apologise to the forum and especially Gary, for not seeing this thread earlier and posting earlier too.

Dear me!!

 

[RichardS]

I was not congratulating myself ......

Maybe I'm mistaken then ..... but I honestly cannot see any other reason than self-congratulation for quoting your earlier posts on the subject once we know exactly what the problem is. Quoting them to show that you were right and GM was wrong is still self-congratulation, albeit with a slightly different justification.

Not that I accept GM was wrong.

Richard

And re-reading the thread from the start makes me wonder whether happened to Drydog? I can't help thinking of the scene from Bladerunner .... "The light that burns twice as bright burns half as long - and you have burned so very, very brightly."