Victron battery bank dead after just three seasons, any bright ideas?

geem said:
Yet I know of cruisers in the Caribbean who struggle to get 4 years out of Lifelines as liveaboards. Tropical heat kills leads batteries
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HEAT kills batteries, tropical or otherwise.

Many Island Packet owners who get long life from their Lifeline batteries are in the Caribean.

Use and charging regime must affect life, as well as the constant use of 12v AC, a common fit on yachts in that area.

I can only speak as I find. The Lifelines on our previous Island Packet were 16 years old. The new owner did replace them. I have one at home, used on my bench as a reliable 12v supply. The date mark is for 1999.
 
Do you actually know what your charging/shorepower system does, in detail when you're not aboard?
dje67 said:
My boat lives in Scotland, so high temperature is definitely not really an issue here...!

So, if two similarly sized battery installations have been killed by lack of charging, even although they are on shore-power pretty-much fully time with a Multiplus charger (50A in my case, just under 0.1C), then what do people think has been the root cause?

My own setup used the standard Victron AGM profile as I didn't have the Mk3 USB dongle thingy to do anything fancier than just select DIP switches to suit. I've now got one (too late!) - if I (or some other unsuspecting boat owner) was re-installing the same batteries again, what parameter(s) are the key ones in the Multiplus to ensure that the default AGM profile doesn't do more harm than good. The Multiplus seems to do do lots of clever calculations to determine the charge times etc. to be best for AGM, but I get the feeling that for some combinations of battery chemistry, bank size, cycle depth and background loading, the Multiplus is getting it significantly wrong.

Also, the claims associated with Lead Carbons (in my case) being good for low states of charge don't seem to match up with reality, if indeed under-charging is the issue.
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Do you actually know what your charging/shorepower system does, in detail when you're not aboard?
Batteries often last pretty well left fully charged and open circuit for months at a time.
Plenty of people seem to get better life from their batteries with no shore power, which could be said to suggest the shore power is over charging?
Once they've been on shore power for a few days, storing them on a 13.5V maintenance charge would probably be better.
 
B27 said:
Do you actually know what your charging/shorepower system does, in detail when you're not aboard?

Do you actually know what your charging/shorepower system does, in detail when you're not aboard?
Batteries often last pretty well left fully charged and open circuit for months at a time.
Plenty of people seem to get better life from their batteries with no shore power, which could be said to suggest the shore power is over charging?
Once they've been on shore power for a few days, storing them on a 13.5V maintenance charge would probably be better.
Click to expand...
The Multiplus has a 13.2v storage mode.
 
PaulRainbow said:
I think the default Multiplus profile is 14.4 Abs and 13.8 float. 14.4 is too low, they want 14.7 unless manufacturers spec sheets say different.
Click to expand...
The data sheet does appear to say different.
It says 14.7 from when it hits that voltage at 0.15C charge rate, for 2 or 3 hours.
Not at any other time.
That is taking the battery from about 85% charged to about 95% charged. Maybe 98% charged.
13.8 is then plenty to slowly take it to 100%
It doesn't need to see over 14V again until it's seen significant discharge.

The behaviour during the fridge cycles is curious, it would be interesting to see the voltages.
I suspect the volts don't initially drop much? It's initially 'surface charge'?
There might also be some AC component which is muddying the measurement.

Also all the voltages require temperature compensation, I'd be checking that the correct slope has been applied.
 
B27 said:
Do you actually know what your charging/shorepower system does, in detail when you're not aboard?

Do you actually know what your charging/shorepower system does, in detail when you're not aboard?
Batteries often last pretty well left fully charged and open circuit for months at a time.
Plenty of people seem to get better life from their batteries with no shore power, which could be said to suggest the shore power is over charging?
Once they've been on shore power for a few days, storing them on a 13.5V maintenance charge would probably be better.
Click to expand...
I do tend to fixate a bit on what they do an always check the BMV trend next time I’m onboard, especially after my first bank failed. The pattern is always bulk charge up to 14.4 (or just above as temperature compensation deals with the 12 degC that the batteries live in. Absorption time is variable and really depends on useage before going back onto shorepower. I’ve seen short periods of Abs after a single night away on the hook (maybe just an hour or so) up to 5-6 hours after 2-3 nights with little motoring. Then onto float - usually for a day at 13.8V then onto storage at 13.2V for a week. After a week I see a half hour or so jump back to absorption. It all seems to be doing what I’d expect, but clearly it doesn’t suit the batteries. I’ve also cross-checked the battery terminal voltages with a multimeter against with the Connect App says the batteries are voltage-wise at and it all matches perfectly.

So, apart from charging post-sailing, they have sat at 13.2V most of their (short!) lives, even if I’m onboard with the fridge and other minor domestic loads on.

For me, it is all academic now, as the next set will be liFePO4s hybrid, but I’m enjoying the discussion on where my configuration went wrong. I also really hope that the 2 issues in this thread help prevent others from falling into the same trap
 
dje67 said:
I do tend to fixate a bit on what they do an always check the BMV trend next time I’m onboard, especially after my first bank failed. The pattern is always bulk charge up to 14.4 (or just above as temperature compensation deals with the 12 degC that the batteries live in. Absorption time is variable and really depends on useage before going back onto shorepower. I’ve seen short periods of Abs after a single night away on the hook (maybe just an hour or so) up to 5-6 hours after 2-3 nights with little motoring. Then onto float - usually for a day at 13.8V then onto storage at 13.2V for a week. After a week I see a half hour or so jump back to absorption. It all seems to be doing what I’d expect, but clearly it doesn’t suit the batteries. I’ve also cross-checked the battery terminal voltages with a multimeter against with the Connect App says the batteries are voltage-wise at and it all matches perfectly.

So, apart from charging post-sailing, they have sat at 13.2V most of their (short!) lives, even if I’m onboard with the fridge and other minor domestic loads on.

For me, it is all academic now, as the next set will be liFePO4s hybrid, but I’m enjoying the discussion on where my configuration went wrong. I also really hope that the 2 issues in this thread help prevent others from falling into the same trap
Click to expand...
Do you know what the battery current is when the charger drops to float?


Where the debate can get really lively in some circles, is
'What should the charge profile be for a battery that's not new any more?'
When your 100Ah battery becomes a 70Ah battery with more self discharge and higher impedance, how can it be made to do its job for as long as possible?
 
B27 said:
The data sheet does appear to say different.
It says 14.7 from when it hits that voltage at 0.15C charge rate, for 2 or 3 hours.
Not at any other time.
That is taking the battery from about 85% charged to about 95% charged. Maybe 98% charged.
13.8 is then plenty to slowly take it to 100%
It doesn't need to see over 14V again until it's seen significant discharge.

The behaviour during the fridge cycles is curious, it would be interesting to see the voltages.
I suspect the volts don't initially drop much? It's initially 'surface charge'?
There might also be some AC component which is muddying the measurement.

Also all the voltages require temperature compensation, I'd be checking that the correct slope has been applied.
Click to expand...
One of my difficulties was that there are 2 data sheets (I posted them earlier) for this model of battery and they differ quite significantly. I think the Victron default profile does seem to give a result not unlike the newer one (date is on the bottom of the 2 datasheets), so I was happy that my recent setup wasn’t a mile wrong (clearly it was…!). I also wondered why Leoch changed the charge profile bit of the datasheets so significantly - maybe impossible to achieve the old one, or maybe many battery failures. Or, maybe they changed the battery chemistry, but I doubt that.
 
I’ve now bought the USB/MK3 device so that I can interrogate the Multi parameters in order to understand what it should be doing. Our symptoms are suggesting chronic undercharging but I don’t think that is the reality because the Balmar alternator/regulator accords with the behaviour of the Multi, quite a coincidence for both sources to error in the same way at the same time. I’ve purchased a replacement for the one battery in our bank that is identified as being at end of life. It’ll be interesting to see what happens next.
 
dje67 said:
One of my difficulties was that there are 2 data sheets (I posted them earlier) for this model of battery and they differ quite significantly. I think the Victron default profile does seem to give a result not unlike the newer one (date is on the bottom of the 2 datasheets), so I was happy that my recent setup wasn’t a mile wrong (clearly it was…!). I also wondered why Leoch changed the charge profile bit of the datasheets so significantly - maybe impossible to achieve the old one, or maybe many battery failures. Or, maybe they changed the battery chemistry, but I doubt that.
Click to expand...
The two charge profiles suggest different purposes.
The newer is classic 'recharge forklift over night for work in the morning'
The older is more subtle, but is taking things to a similar place, with more emphasis to a precise charge using a more complicated charger.
I guess the people who bought them prefer to use simpler chargers?
Maybe Leoch were marketing a particular charger?
There are many other profiles you could use, but most would either be slower or risk excess heating.

Many real chargers don't have an exact corner between constant current and constant voltage, it's more of a curve.
 
rotrax said:
HEAT kills batteries, tropical or otherwise.

Many Island Packet owners who get long life from their Lifeline batteries are in the Caribean.

Use and charging regime must affect life, as well as the constant use of 12v AC, a common fit on yachts in that area.

I can only speak as I find. The Lifelines on our previous Island Packet were 16 years old. The new owner did replace them. I have one at home, used on my bench as a reliable 12v supply. The date mark is for 1999.
Click to expand...
I had numax house batteries on my last boat. I had them for 8 years before I sold the boat and they were still going strong. Boat was in the cool UK. They are cheap batteries and I wasn't living aboard. I agree, use and charging regime make a difference. Getting them 100% charged once a week at least makes a big difference. That is hard to do when living aboard. I really do think the uptake of lithium will see the use of expensive lead batteries as a thing of the past
 
I have just joined forum group to add more information. I have had two sets of Leoch lead/carbon AGMs fail, the first after 18 months and the second after 20 months. The first were replaced under warranty because I had so much data to prove I had charged them correctly. The second set have just died on me very suddenly. My set-up is 4 x 90Ah Leoch Lead carbon deep cycle AGMs, a 50A Victron IP43 charger and a Victron Smartshunt connected on VictronConnect with bluetooth. The IP43 gets current and battery voltage feedback from the shunt. I use expert mode on the IP43, with Absorption of 14.7, Float 13.8v and storage mode of 13.2v. These are voltages measured directly on the battery terminal. After the first set of batteries died I checked with the suppliers that the spec sheet was correct and they confirmed these voltages. I don't have an inverter so don't have any high loads but I wanted lots of back up capacity for anchoring. I also have 100W solar via an MPPT controller on a good day I get about 60 to 65W (June solstice, 42N, panel horizontal). Over winter I disconnect all negatives and batteries have no charge, every two months batteries are reconnected, charged and quickly go into float.

We live aboard for 5 months. I know for sure my batteries have been fully charged regularly, when in a marina overnight the charger regularly goes into storage mode 13.2v. Up until recently the batteries accepted a fair amount of bulk charge and reasonably long absorption with IP43 set on smart absorption. The batteries have died in a matter of weeks, from lasting for a three day (two night passage) using autohelm, all instruments ,fridge and LED nav lights and not going below 50%SoC at end of passage, to not lasting overnight at anchor with fridge and led anchor light, with battery voltage down to 11v and fridge hunting on low voltage

On the recommendation of the suppliers I have tried each battery individually, discharging with 10A load then fully charging until float is reached, a really tedious and time consuming task. Each "fully charged" 90Ah battery has a nominal capacity of about 5Ah before voltage drops through the floor. Each battery then takes about 10Ah of charge mainly bulk then some in absorption.

I am in the process of making another claim, but batteries were bought in UK and we are in Spain with dead batteries. I wouldn't use these rubbish batteries ever again, but it is interesting that this thread started with Victron Lead carbon batteries. So I am steering clear of lead carbon. Previously I had Numax cheap and cheerful sealed lead acid, with a pretty old charger and they lasted 3 or 4 years.

So this is really a warning DO NOT buy Leoch lead carbon deep cycle batteries.
 
At the present time there are, IMO, only two sensible choices for domestic batteries. Moderately priced sealed lead acid or LifePO4. Any variation of expensive lead acid batteries make no sense.
 
webcraft said:
What about EFB lead-acid? Just bought 2 Yuasa 100ah EFB for a reasonable price from BMS

- W
Click to expand...
Good quality batteries, cost for 2 x 100Ah (usable 100Ah) = about £240 with carriage.

4 x 314Ah (usable 250Ah) LifePO4 cells = £240 with carriage. Prices just dropped again.

2.5 times the power, half the weight, half the physical size, same price.

You also need a BMS, about £100, maybe a DC-DC charger and a fuse. But these are one off purchases and chances are you'll never need to buy batteries again, unless you change the boat.
 
Add to that replacing the lead ones a few years down the line while the lithiums just continue working…
 
PaulRainbow said:
At the present time there are, IMO, only two sensible choices for domestic batteries. Moderately priced sealed lead acid or LifePO4. Any variation of expensive lead acid batteries make no sense.
Click to expand...
I tend to agree. I used to have 4 identical Numax sealed, one for engine start. With this set up I fitted a Merlin Smartguage Advanced which parallels up the batteries (a smart VSR). Three years ago I used the space for the 4 Leochs and fitted a small Full River FT in another location for engine start. In each case charging regime has been the same 14.4v for Numax, 14.7v for Leoch and Full River. I cannot use this set up with LiFePO4, I would need to isolate the two, so alternator charges AGM and a DC/DC charger to house bank. If in home base I would consider this. Going the cheaper route with sealed lead acid means engine battery will never see absorption voltage, and once one bank is above connect voltage there is no way to disconnect so I can't even charge engine battery with a small separate charger. The price difference between AGM and Sealed in Spain is nothing like it used to be in UK 3 years ago.
 
geem said:
They are all lead acid. There is no lead acid that can come near the performance and life expectancy of lithium.
Click to expand...

Agreed. But replacing like for like requires no rewiring, extra purchases or knowledge.

I would only ever buy bluetooth LiFePo batteries, I am not going to buy separate cells and a BMS, so Paul's quoted price is a bit low. Also need DC-DC charger and new shorepower charger.

My question was about the enhanced performsnce of EFB.

- W
 
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