Fr J Hackett
Well-Known Member
Having owned and sailed a Vancouver 27 and now a 34 there is no problem in sailing either single handed and the cutter rig helps.
Vancouver or Rustler?
- Thread starter Fourbees
- Start date
Fr J Hackett
Well-Known Member
That sounds like a challenge we will have to have a head to head sometime as long as its not a light airs beat when your genoa is probably going to give you a bit of an advantage. We will be down next weekend. On your marks!
Pete (Amoret)
Pete (Amoret)
ksutton
Well-Known Member
How nice to see a debate with so many sensible comments regarding British quality long lasting cruising yachts. The Vancouver 34, Russler 36 and Nicholson 35 are all proven designs, but were never meant as racing yachts. By design they remain comfortable and untiring for the crew in heavy weather even when short handed, particularly when cutter rigged.
What is very satisfying is that they are built in Britain by companies who have remained in business while staying firmly loyal to good design and sensible build techniques. The clients for such yachts appreciate build strength and safe comfortable sea keeping qualities. The alternative may be an unusual hull shape meant to please the wife or girlfriend with loads of accommodation, but at the same time degrading sea keeping abilities, safety and quality, you pay your money and take your choice. Looking around SIB this week at the ever increasing prices of some of the so called light displacement cruising yachts, mostly imported from not too far away, which have huge accommodation, should always make a discerning true cruising yachtsman look in depth at what you actually get for your money.
It is a very pleasurable as well as satisfying experience sailing offshore in what you know is a really capable offshore yacht, designed and constructed to perform at its best in wind and seas that would worry the pants off a skipper sitting in a his "so called" budget purchase.
I know what my choice would be given a budget for either buying a 34 foot quality hand built offshore yacht against a larger more space mass production import, think about it.
Ken
What is very satisfying is that they are built in Britain by companies who have remained in business while staying firmly loyal to good design and sensible build techniques. The clients for such yachts appreciate build strength and safe comfortable sea keeping qualities. The alternative may be an unusual hull shape meant to please the wife or girlfriend with loads of accommodation, but at the same time degrading sea keeping abilities, safety and quality, you pay your money and take your choice. Looking around SIB this week at the ever increasing prices of some of the so called light displacement cruising yachts, mostly imported from not too far away, which have huge accommodation, should always make a discerning true cruising yachtsman look in depth at what you actually get for your money.
It is a very pleasurable as well as satisfying experience sailing offshore in what you know is a really capable offshore yacht, designed and constructed to perform at its best in wind and seas that would worry the pants off a skipper sitting in a his "so called" budget purchase.
I know what my choice would be given a budget for either buying a 34 foot quality hand built offshore yacht against a larger more space mass production import, think about it.
Ken
Twister_Ken
Well-Known Member
"What is very satisfying is that they are built in Britain by companies who have remained in business"
Well, yes, but I very much doubt Northshore would have stayed in business if its business was building Vancouvers. Essentially, they build loadsa Southerlies, with the odd Vancouver or Fisher motorsailer thrown for idiosyncratic customers.
Well, yes, but I very much doubt Northshore would have stayed in business if its business was building Vancouvers. Essentially, they build loadsa Southerlies, with the odd Vancouver or Fisher motorsailer thrown for idiosyncratic customers.
ksutton
Well-Known Member
There is no argument in the fact that the size of the heavy long keeler market is limited. The fact that Northshore put themselves in a position to diversify and continue to offer modern classics at the same time seems good business judgement. The Southerly image is partly built on offering larger accommodation partly on the advantage of a lifting keel, as well as continuing to incorporate the quality build tag of Northshores past and existing marques.
As far as "a few idiosyncratic owners" are concerned, the worldwide market numbers for such designs are a bit more than just a "few". Choosing a Vancouver instead of an HR, and a Fisher instead of a Nauticat will always be the individuals choice but isn't that what this country needs, (manufacturing), the French are masters at being loyal to home grown product. I assume you were using the adjective for such owners as individual or distinctive, rather than eccentric or peculiar.
As far as "a few idiosyncratic owners" are concerned, the worldwide market numbers for such designs are a bit more than just a "few". Choosing a Vancouver instead of an HR, and a Fisher instead of a Nauticat will always be the individuals choice but isn't that what this country needs, (manufacturing), the French are masters at being loyal to home grown product. I assume you were using the adjective for such owners as individual or distinctive, rather than eccentric or peculiar.
Twister_Ken
Well-Known Member
Whatever...
Distinctive, individual, individualistic, characteristic, peculiar, typical, special, specific, unique, one-of-a-kind, personal; eccentric, unconventional, irregular, anomalous, odd, quirky, offbeat, queer, strange, weird, wacky, wingy, bizarre, freakish, abnormal, informal, freaky, far out, off the wall.
Personally, I'd love to see a modern Vancouver, but Northshore seems content to leave the range frozen in time, If as much development had gone into the Vancouver range as has gone into Southerlies, Britain really might have a competitor for all those posh Swedish boats. As a business case, I understand why Southerly has been favoured, but I still regret the missed opportunity to update the Vancouver concept.
Distinctive, individual, individualistic, characteristic, peculiar, typical, special, specific, unique, one-of-a-kind, personal; eccentric, unconventional, irregular, anomalous, odd, quirky, offbeat, queer, strange, weird, wacky, wingy, bizarre, freakish, abnormal, informal, freaky, far out, off the wall.
Personally, I'd love to see a modern Vancouver, but Northshore seems content to leave the range frozen in time, If as much development had gone into the Vancouver range as has gone into Southerlies, Britain really might have a competitor for all those posh Swedish boats. As a business case, I understand why Southerly has been favoured, but I still regret the missed opportunity to update the Vancouver concept.
SoSageofLorn
Well-Known Member
Update the concept? How and why?
I consider my 34p to be an ideal cruising boat for a couple and occasional guests. The only thing I would change would be one cupboard in the galley.
If I were to order a new boat today, It would be another 34P.
If your Vancouver is a little slow, fit a feathering prop.
They are absolutely delightful to sail and, whilst they may not be considered as pretty as a Rustler, they have a presence which is hard to match.
I consider my 34p to be an ideal cruising boat for a couple and occasional guests. The only thing I would change would be one cupboard in the galley.
If I were to order a new boat today, It would be another 34P.
If your Vancouver is a little slow, fit a feathering prop.
They are absolutely delightful to sail and, whilst they may not be considered as pretty as a Rustler, they have a presence which is hard to match.
Twister_Ken
Well-Known Member
There's room for updating. A broader stern for more speed and less rolling off the wind, plus an aft cabin. Some tweaking of the underwater profile for better close quarters manoeuverability and an extra decimal or two of a knot. A smidge more beam for incerased living area.
HR has sold 220 342s in three years. Northshore has sold how many V34s? I dunno, but I bet it's barely double figures, if that.
I'm not saying the HR342 is the epitome of a modern 34' cruising yacht, but there must be a halfway house somewhere between the two which would produce more sales and still provide a great boat.
HR has sold 220 342s in three years. Northshore has sold how many V34s? I dunno, but I bet it's barely double figures, if that.
I'm not saying the HR342 is the epitome of a modern 34' cruising yacht, but there must be a halfway house somewhere between the two which would produce more sales and still provide a great boat.
ksutton
Well-Known Member
I would also find it difficult to list that many improvements on my V34C. To increase the space enough to get a reasonable size aft cabin would make it a 36, there is one, (or lose the much admired chart table). Admirers continue to stop and stare long and hard at the yacht. I used to be a mechanical engineer until it wore me out so much, I couldn't spell engineer any more, I chose the V34C to look after me in retirement and take me to locations where some boats fear to tread. One of the main challenges of updating the V34 in anyway would be that someone would want to build it either faster, or more cost effectively. Presently the hull and deck are very substantially bonded together at the lay up stage. Such an assembly makes limited space available for persons working below and transporting things in via the hatch, required to fit out the complicated interior, there just isn't the space, and time is always money, its an expensive build technique. The alternative is to fit out the interior in an open hull, prior to attaching the deck, as is the case in the majority of yachts being built today. It goes without saying that the V34 gets a lot of its unique stiffness from the present lay up procedure, to change this design would not necessarily be an improvement.
After five years of sailing the V34C, its still one of the few things in my life that bring a grin to my face. Before the V34C I owned a V28, oh and I can assure all traditionalists who dare not part with their tiller steering that having a wheel is all part of that enjoyment.
Ken thanks for the banter on this subject, it filled the afternoon in nicely.
After five years of sailing the V34C, its still one of the few things in my life that bring a grin to my face. Before the V34C I owned a V28, oh and I can assure all traditionalists who dare not part with their tiller steering that having a wheel is all part of that enjoyment.
Ken thanks for the banter on this subject, it filled the afternoon in nicely.
Fr J Hackett
Well-Known Member
I agree from a personal point of view I would not change the layout one bit it works! and given the constraints of the hull it would be difficult to see how it could be changed bearing in mind its fundamental purpose as an offshore cruiser for two people.
I would also not dream of criticising the Rustler it does the same job equally well and in the final analysis it would come down to personal choice, asthetics and personal taste will play a significant part in making the choice Viva la differance.
Wether they were made or designed to race there will always be those amongst us (me at the front of the queue) that will pit their boats wits and skills against anything else that floats, hopefully learning in the process.
I would also not dream of criticising the Rustler it does the same job equally well and in the final analysis it would come down to personal choice, asthetics and personal taste will play a significant part in making the choice Viva la differance.
Wether they were made or designed to race there will always be those amongst us (me at the front of the queue) that will pit their boats wits and skills against anything else that floats, hopefully learning in the process.
matelot
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Personally, I'd love to see a modern Vancouver, but Northshore seems content to leave the range frozen in time, If as much development had gone into the Vancouver range as has gone into Southerlies, Britain really might have a competitor for all those posh Swedish boats. .
[/ QUOTE ]
How can you update a Vancouver.? Its a bit like updating a Morgan car or a Harley. The whole point is that they are out of date and appeal to people who want something old fashioned. Nothing wrong with that!
The Southerlies are an alternative to the Swedish boats, particularly in quality terms. But neither they nor the Vancouvers nor the HR etc are modern really.
Personally, I'd love to see a modern Vancouver, but Northshore seems content to leave the range frozen in time, If as much development had gone into the Vancouver range as has gone into Southerlies, Britain really might have a competitor for all those posh Swedish boats. .
[/ QUOTE ]
How can you update a Vancouver.? Its a bit like updating a Morgan car or a Harley. The whole point is that they are out of date and appeal to people who want something old fashioned. Nothing wrong with that!
The Southerlies are an alternative to the Swedish boats, particularly in quality terms. But neither they nor the Vancouvers nor the HR etc are modern really.
Dyflin
Well-Known Member
You're really not going to go wrong with either builder really are you? I have always really admired the Vancouver's for a long time, I got to see a V32 up close this summer and I have to admit that I was disappointed, it just looked overly cluttered. No doubt it sails well and looked like a brick outhouse, but I also saw a visiting Victoria 34 and the boat just stopped me in my tracks, it was stunning, very graceful but solid, Chuck Paine has a real talent when it comes to the drawing board.
Twister_Ken
Well-Known Member
"The whole point is that they are out of date and appeal to people who want something old fashioned. Nothing wrong with that!"
I agree. But I don't believe there are enough customers to make building new 'old' Vancouvers viable. They are propped up by Southerly - and thank heavens for it. A modern interpretation of the Vancouver range should be a sustainable business in its own right.
I agree. But I don't believe there are enough customers to make building new 'old' Vancouvers viable. They are propped up by Southerly - and thank heavens for it. A modern interpretation of the Vancouver range should be a sustainable business in its own right.
photodog
Lord High Commander of Upper Broughton and Gunthor
[ QUOTE ]
How can you update a Vancouver.? Its a bit like updating a Morgan car or a Harley. The whole point is that they are out of date and appeal to people who want something old fashioned
[/ QUOTE ]
how are they "out of date" and "old Fashioned"... I just dont buy into that.... in reality a new build Vancouver or Rustler will have every "modern" facility... Digital radar, Autopilot, in mast reefing, furling genoa, Jabsco, Heating, etc.......
So, how is a extended fin keel (Vancouver 36) or a full length keel with a cutaway (Vancouver 34 or Rustler) not "modern"........ In fact these are the epitomie of modernity, and possibly the ulitmate expression of that particular keel design... it could be argued that the Vancouver 34's cutaway full length keel is more modern than the average cruisers fin keel, being a more state of the art design of that particular type of keel than the keel off of say a Bavaria 36.....
We are confusing fashion with obselesence.......
How can you update a Vancouver.? Its a bit like updating a Morgan car or a Harley. The whole point is that they are out of date and appeal to people who want something old fashioned
[/ QUOTE ]
how are they "out of date" and "old Fashioned"... I just dont buy into that.... in reality a new build Vancouver or Rustler will have every "modern" facility... Digital radar, Autopilot, in mast reefing, furling genoa, Jabsco, Heating, etc.......
So, how is a extended fin keel (Vancouver 36) or a full length keel with a cutaway (Vancouver 34 or Rustler) not "modern"........ In fact these are the epitomie of modernity, and possibly the ulitmate expression of that particular keel design... it could be argued that the Vancouver 34's cutaway full length keel is more modern than the average cruisers fin keel, being a more state of the art design of that particular type of keel than the keel off of say a Bavaria 36.....
We are confusing fashion with obselesence.......
Fr J Hackett
Well-Known Member
It suddenly struck me that the principal protagonist in the call to "modernise" the V34 not the equally dated R36 note is someone that sails what can only be described as an antideluvian design by modern standards. So how can we persuade him that what he is asking for is wrong, perhaps by focusing on the Twister that surely would benifit by more locker space arived at by getting rid of that outlandishly raked stern and that barn door of a transome hung rudder could surely be changed. I am sure there are many more far reaching and benificial changes that could be made to improve this old lady (the boat that is not Ken) perhaps even getting it back into production. So lets start a how to improve a twister thread to persuade Ken hes got it wrong. There I have risen to the bait indeed swallowed it hook line and sinker.
Fr J Hackett
Well-Known Member
Off to the Game fair now so look forward to the suggestion later tonight.
doris
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Personally, I'd love to see a modern Vancouver, but Northshore seems content to leave the range frozen in time, If as much development had gone into the Vancouver range as has gone into Southerlies, Britain really might have a competitor for all those posh Swedish boats. .
[/ QUOTE ]
How can you update a Vancouver.? Its a bit like updating a Morgan car or a Harley. The whole point is that they are out of date and appeal to people who want something old fashioned. Nothing wrong with that!
The Southerlies are an alternative to the Swedish boats, particularly in quality terms. But neither they nor the Vancouvers nor the HR etc are modern really.
[/ QUOTE ]
I have no idea about Morgans but Harleys have been massively updated. That is why they are still in business and have, to a small degree, stemmed the Japanese tide.
To see how a Rustler can be updated look to the 42. Stephen Jones spent 6 months working just on the keel which has resulted in an extraordinarily quick heavy displacement cruiser. I think peeps are suggesting that the same could be carried out on baby sis.
[ QUOTE ]
Personally, I'd love to see a modern Vancouver, but Northshore seems content to leave the range frozen in time, If as much development had gone into the Vancouver range as has gone into Southerlies, Britain really might have a competitor for all those posh Swedish boats. .
[/ QUOTE ]
How can you update a Vancouver.? Its a bit like updating a Morgan car or a Harley. The whole point is that they are out of date and appeal to people who want something old fashioned. Nothing wrong with that!
The Southerlies are an alternative to the Swedish boats, particularly in quality terms. But neither they nor the Vancouvers nor the HR etc are modern really.
[/ QUOTE ]
I have no idea about Morgans but Harleys have been massively updated. That is why they are still in business and have, to a small degree, stemmed the Japanese tide.
To see how a Rustler can be updated look to the 42. Stephen Jones spent 6 months working just on the keel which has resulted in an extraordinarily quick heavy displacement cruiser. I think peeps are suggesting that the same could be carried out on baby sis.
Rob_Webb
Well-Known Member
I know I'll get caned for this but here in NZ both these boats would fall into the category of 'heavy sh!tters'. And that's not an entirely derogatory term but simply recognition that whilst they might be solid and safe performers, today's more modern designs offer a better combination speed, safety and comfort than these heavy displacement designs. I guess if you every time you go to sea you want to feel ready to face a cyclone then maybe follow this philosophy. But if you generally expect to face more 'normal' conditions (inc. a regular gale) then there are plenty of other designs that will get you there quicker and with more agility.
pragmatist
Well-Known Member
Friends with owners/recent owners of both a Vancouver 34 Pilothouse and a Rustler 36. The latter is v experienced and has done round Britain but not oceans, I believe - he has recently upsized to a Bowman 40 but I have a feeling he has a hankering after his Rustler.
The friends with the Vancouver had a 27 for many years and did the Baltic, Med etc and then sold the London house and bought a a V34 Pilothouse. We met them in Dartmouth last year - they have done the Atlantic, Great Lakes, Baltic, Scotland (some several times - all since retiring) - they now have a joint age of 171. Now you can say they are remarkable sailors (which I freely admit they are) but their boat is very comfortable, extraordinarily tough and very well set up. I wouldn't knock either boat but there can scarcely be better proof of suitability for long-term cruising than this couple and their wonderful boat.
The friends with the Vancouver had a 27 for many years and did the Baltic, Med etc and then sold the London house and bought a a V34 Pilothouse. We met them in Dartmouth last year - they have done the Atlantic, Great Lakes, Baltic, Scotland (some several times - all since retiring) - they now have a joint age of 171. Now you can say they are remarkable sailors (which I freely admit they are) but their boat is very comfortable, extraordinarily tough and very well set up. I wouldn't knock either boat but there can scarcely be better proof of suitability for long-term cruising than this couple and their wonderful boat.
Slow_boat
Well-Known Member
At last years SIBS it was swmbo who took one look at the V34p and suggested that we sell the house to buy one, so I guess the Vancouver gets my vote.
