US Boat - Unique Situation

[Carter866]

Hello all, I am not yet a liveaboard but I found some similar questions to mine in this forum so I thought I would post my situation here looking for any advice you may have.

I am not sure where to start but I am a US citizen living in France (expatriate) and I am in the process of purchasing a boat in the UK. I will move the boat to France and keep it here until I am finished with my work (1-4 years) at which time I plan to do some cruising in the Med and possibly sail the boat back to the US. I want to make sure that I am not missing something or that my research has led me astray as far as logistics go. So, here goes...

Registration/Flag
I plan to change the boat's nationality by having it documented with the US Coast Guard. At a later time, if/when I take the boat to the US, I will have it titled and registered in the state in which I end up, probably Florida.

Insurance
I have a quote for insurance from a French company since the few companies that would even talk to me with such a low value vessel had crazy premiums. I don't think this is going to be any problem for me.

VAT/Taxes
The boat is sufficiently old (1972) that the VAT should be considered paid although I am as of yet unsure of my ability to prove that the boat was in the EU on December 31st 1992. I assume state sales taxes will be due if/when I register the boat in a state back in the US.

Importation/Customs
I am assuming that I should not have to pay any importation/customs duties since I am not importing anything into the EU. I suppose I should keep good records to prove that my US flagged vessel was not, in fact, imported to the EU. Although, I haven't yet considered what happens upon return to the US...maybe I should then 'lose' those records that proved I didn't import it to the EU.

Arrival in UK/EU
This is where I am a bit unsure. Since the boat will not be arriving from a foreign port but, rather, its registration will one day change to foreign, is there any need to check in with customs/immigration in the UK at that time? And then, I will be arriving in a French port from another EU port as foreign vessel, so will something trip me up there as well? I am assuming that a call to the HMRC National Yacht line might help answer these questions but maybe someone here has some advice too.

Mooring/Storage in France
Still working on this one.

So, that is my story. Is there anything major that I have incorrect or I am not considering at all?

Thanks in advance for your help.

 

[Grehan]

Hi and welcome. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Thanks for your long and literate (hooray!) post, although it's more of a statement than a series of questions, which makes it slightly difficult to respond. I'm not qualified to comment on the later-importation-to-the-US aspect of what you say, maybe someone else here will be.
IMHO you shouldn't experience (need to experience) any difficulties bringing a boat from the UK to France. In what you say there is an implication that (because you are living medium-term in France) you are importing the boat into France. However France seems to be fairly relaxed about this (unlike some reports from Spain). Personally I wouldn't lose any sleep over that, maybe others here will have a different opinion.

What's the boat?
Where (roughly) are you looking to moor her?
Are you going to live aboard?

 

[Tranona]

I think your issue will be with the French authorities. The boat can no longer stay on the uK register because youa re not qualified either by citizenship or residence to register a boat in the UK. You probably are considered resident in France so may be able to register it there.

I do not know if you can register the boat on the US register and keep it in the EU. Pretty sure you would not be able to use it under the temporary importation rules as that is only available to non-residents.

With VAT there seems to be a consensus that the authorities are relaxed about proof on older vessels - it is new, high value ones where there is benefit in avoiding VAT that are targetted. Proof of the 1992 issue is normally relatively simple such as having a marina bill for the period. However, most people don't keep that sort of thing, but hopefully you will be able to show that it was owned by a UK resident at that time. Note that it will lose its VAT paid status when it leaves the EU, unless you bring it back personally as a returning resident.

I think your best bet is to find out what is required to register it in France, as it will not be uK flagged once ownership passes to you.

Can't comment on the US situation.

 

[jimbaerselman]

A US registered boat will usually only be permitted to stay in Europe for 6 months, extendable to 18 months. Also, any non-EU crew aboard are assumed to be living aboard - unless they 'immigrate' under some visa scheme (which must be proven with a visa or arrival passport stamp).

However, with your vessel, since VAT should be deemed paid (longer stays mean you will have to pay VAT and import the vessel) this time limit may not apply. However, even though this may be the case, it may not be easy to pursuade local officials that VAT is paid without a document stating the fact . . . so I think you're in difficult waters here with a US flag staying longer than 6 or 18 months. The onus of proof will be on you . . .

On the other hand, I assume you're tax resident in France at the moment (ie, more than 183 days a year there). If that is the case, when importing the vessel to France from UK, the authorities could require you to register it as a French vessel (and meet French regulations, whatever those may be). This has considerable advantages - you may now travel throughout the EU on a French flagged vessel with no limitations on its length of stay.

For you, personally, and any non-EU visitors, of course the periods of stay in any country (or within the Schengen countries if they have Schengen visas) will be limited by visa conditions. Often only 90 days for a visitor's visa given as a passport stamp. And this will apply whatever the flag of the boat you're sailing in.

 

[Lizzie_B]

The simplest thing if you are resident in france is to register it in France. When the time comes to return to the USA you will need to re register it in the State of Primary Use.

As a returning citizen to the USA after living abroad you may be entitled to import the boat without duty or tax as a chatel. The USA Customs and Border Protection website is a good starting point to find out about this.
The current limit is that you should have owned the boat while living in France for a minimum of one year before returning to the USA. Depending on your return status you may not sell it in the USA for one year after returning.
I can email u the current CBP brochure if you PM me your email address.
Registering in the state of primary use, paying state sales tax will depend on which state you choose. eg currently Florida and Virginia would not charge it if you have a foriegn bill of sale and registration as they will accept that all necessary taxes were paid at the time. Maryland will charge sales tax on the bill of sale, even if you ahd bought it and paid sales tax in another US state. So it really is worth researching individual states.
I think trying to register the boat as US while still living in France opens up a whole can of worms unnecessarily and is likely to bring you nothing but hassle because you wont tick any of the standard boxes and you may well be required by law to register the boat as french if you are resident there anyway. I would keep things simple and straight forward.
Of course you'll need to check the regs when the time comes to return to the US as these rules are always subject to amendment.

 

[Grehan]

Lots of French boats are registered in Belgium.
http://www.pavillon-belge.com/
Much more relaxed regime.

 

[Carter866]

Thank you all for your suggestions. I agree that it may simplify things to register the boat in France but I don't think that it is possible. From my, possibly poor, translation of the following webpage, it seems that in order to register a boat in France I have to be an EU citizen in order to qualify.

http://www.douane.gouv.fr/page.asp?id=84

Thanks again for your help.

 

[Abaker]

Greetings from a "liveaboard" who is grounded at present. From my own experience of keeping a foreign-flagged (Canadian) sailboat in France for four years, I think you will not have serious difficulties with the French authorities if, as soon as the boat enters France, you ask for and get a Passeport du Navire Etranger. This is a little-known document which I asked the Douanes officer in his Cherbourg office to issue the morning after we sailed in from England at midnight in October 2004. He was surprised that we knew about it, and explained that it is not a passport, but a boat license for non-EU flagged vessels, for which an annual fee is charged, similar to thelicense fee for French-flagged pleasure craft. Issuing it requires a measurement certificate using French rules. Since my Crealock 34's dimensions were not in his book, I had to pay 50 Euros for two measurers to do the job while the boat was afloat in the Cherbourg marina. After the Douanes officer received their report he issued a green booklet titled Passeport du Navire Etranger, describing the boat and stamped showing that we had paid the annual fee, about 50 Euros for our boat. The relevant authority bills me again each year. The booklet must be surrendered when the boat leaves France. Several times, beginning in Cherbourg and later in Paris, a Douanes crew of three came alongside in their RIB to check out the foreign boat. The green booklet always satisfied them, along with my Canadian registration document.

Depending on whether you want to use your boat on the coast or in the inland waterways, you might be interested in the Sodeports marina on the River Oise, about 12 km upstream from Conflans St Honorine where it joins the Seine. This is a well-managed marina with about 200 boats located in one of the better Paris suburbs. RERA3 takes you from Cergy Prefecture station to Chatelet-les Halles in about 40 minutes. The marina has no yard, but there is a simple one at Conflans. We spent a winter aboard there, and left the boat there when ill health obliged us to change plans.

If you want more details on all of this, PM me your email address and I'll send you a letter about our cruise which was printed in the monthly Bulletin of the Seven Seas Cruising Association. If you're not familiar with the SSCA you might find it worthwhile to look at the website (www.ssca.org) or to join.

 

[Tranona]

I think the critical difference in your case is that your boat is registered in Canada, whereas H27Tom will have a boat with no registration once he buys it as he is not eligible to have it on the UK register.

The consensus seems to be that if he is deemed a resident in France, he can register the boat there - but my French is not up to establishing that from the website information.

If he can register in France he can move anywhere in the EU without any problems

 

[Abaker]

I understood from H27Tom's post that he intends to document (i.e. register) the boat as a US vessel as soon as he purchases it in England. If that happens then it would be US-flagged before entering France, and his situation would be similar to mine.

 

[Carter866]

Thanks Abaker!

I had just found the website about the "Passport du Navire Etranger" last night and it seemed like exactly what I need but it wasn't very specific on length of stay, regulations, etc. I appreciate your advice and I think this is the direction I will take. I plan on keeping the boat on the coast if I can get an annual slip (which seem a bit difficult to come by) and do weekend trips and longer cruises while on vacations (love European vacation!!!). As for living aboard, that will come in a couple years when I complete my assignment here as I am currently loving living in the center of Paris and the company is paying while I am an expat so I am able to save for cruising.

Anyway, thanks again for the advice !

 

[SebastianS]

US flagged yacht moving to EU -- RCD and tax

This is trying to catch tail end of an old thread, but hoping someone sees this... I am a US citizen planning to move to France (for work) and wish to bring with me my US registered boat. The good news is that I have established I can avoid paying VAT under the transfer of residency (TOR) rules which in effect treat your boat as just another piece of your persona property. Who said there was no sense in the EU? What I can't figure out at all is whether I would be bound to go through the CE mark nightmare. Sounds like something between a headache and a ruinous bill for modifications that you don't in any case need to make... The experience of the Canadian poster who received a foreign flag passeport in France sounds hopeful. But did the question of RCD/CE mark never come up? Can you be exempt from this in the same way that you are exempt from VAT provided your boat is foreign, you are foreign and you stay that way -- ie not selling, not getting an EU state's flag, etc? I've read a few posts where people say just don't worry about CE but that sounds a bit like saying don't worry about a lifejacket since you probably won't fall off. I've scoured official French sites but they are entirely vague. From the depths of the EU regulations pit, a cry for help!

 

[PLEIAS]

A case that i've come across was from a Swiss(NON EU) flagged boat that had proof of VAT payed by the previous Italian owner.He was issued with papers that stated that he could stay in european waters without time limitations.Hope that helps.

 

[Gordonmc]

But did the question of RCD/CE mark never come up? Can you be exempt from this in the same way that you are exempt from VAT provided your boat is foreign, you are foreign and you stay that way -- ie not selling, not getting an EU state's flag, etc? .... From the depths of the EU regulations pit, a cry for help!

In general you would need to prove the vessel was built, sold or was in service in the EEA prior to 16 June 1998 to gain an exemption from RCD/CE marking. There are other exemptions for commercial vessels, home-built more than five years ago or vessels in excluded categories.
My USA built and originally Canadian registered boat was issued with a Direction Exemption certificate in 2002 as she was in use in France before the cut-off date. The certificate explains the absence of a CE marking. To quote a covering letter: "It would not be legal for an official to seek to restrict the use of the boat in terms of the RCD".
I am not aware of any circumstance of the owner's nationality or residential status which would allow exemption.
For more, however, go to http://www.ceproof.com/Marine/marinehome.htm

 

[Tranona]

This is trying to catch tail end of an old thread, but hoping someone sees this... I am a US citizen planning to move to France (for work) and wish to bring with me my US registered boat. The good news is that I have established I can avoid paying VAT under the transfer of residency (TOR) rules which in effect treat your boat as just another piece of your persona property. Who said there was no sense in the EU? What I can't figure out at all is whether I would be bound to go through the CE mark nightmare. Sounds like something between a headache and a ruinous bill for modifications that you don't in any case need to make... The experience of the Canadian poster who received a foreign flag passeport in France sounds hopeful. But did the question of RCD/CE mark never come up? Can you be exempt from this in the same way that you are exempt from VAT provided your boat is foreign, you are foreign and you stay that way -- ie not selling, not getting an EU state's flag, etc? I've read a few posts where people say just don't worry about CE but that sounds a bit like saying don't worry about a lifejacket since you probably won't fall off. I've scoured official French sites but they are entirely vague. From the depths of the EU regulations pit, a cry for help!

I think you might have been able to get the answer to your questions from the other thread. Anyway, I think you are clear on VAT - you should be exempt.

The difference with RCD is that it is not illegal to use a boat in the EU/EEA without a CE mark. It is illegal to "place it on the market" - ie sell it without one. So if you don't sell it while you are here then nobody will ever find out. Equally a buyer may not be bothered anyway as there is no formal check. There are many boats in that position circulating in the EU. As I mentioned earlier you can meet the CE requirements at the lowest level if you need to as there is no restriction on use determined by the RCD category.

There is a lot of useful information on the RYA site on the RCD and associated rules.

BTW the country of registration is irrelevant. You will be able to register your boat in France or Belgium because registration is a function of residence, not citizenship

 

[AndersG]

My USA built and originally Canadian registered boat was issued with a Direction Exemption certificate in 2002 as she was in use in France before the cut-off date. The certificate explains the absence of a CE marking. To quote a covering letter: "It would not be legal for an official to seek to restrict the use of the boat in terms of the RCD".

There is no such thing as a "Direction Exemption certificate". You have been sold a document from an unscrupulous seller that has no legal value.
Even ceeprof says:
"The Directive Exemption Certificate is not a legal document."

 

[westernman]

The simplest thing if you are resident in france is to register it in France.

Probably easier to register in Belgium.

To register in France he would have to prove residency and that might be a little bit tricky initially (they will probably want to see a carte de residence and it can take a long time to get one of those). Also the list of papers required to do this is fairly impressive.

Unfortunately for income tax this is not required!!

The boat has to be registered somewhere (if it is going to be used in France), it should definitely be registered somewhere in the EU if he intends to stay any length of time at all.

 

[westernman]

I understood from H27Tom's post that he intends to document (i.e. register) the boat as a US vessel as soon as he purchases it in England. If that happens then it would be US-flagged before entering France, and his situation would be similar to mine.

If the boat is US registered, you will have all kinds of problems trying to stay for a long time. You will need to prove that VAT is not due because it was bought by you (as an EU resident) and sold to you by a EU resident and has never been exported out of the EU in the meantime.

A US flag might be interpreted as having been exported!
And then VAT is due after 90 days or whatever.

Register the boat in the EU if you intend keeping it there for any length of time. If the boat is in the UK and is being sold by a private individual, no VAT is due and you will be able to easily register it in Belgium (or with more of a paper trail in France if you are resident there).

 

[Carter866]

SebastianS,

I just read your post. As the OP of this thread I have gone through the process now of bringing a US flagged vessel into France as a permanent resident. My situation is slightly different since I bought the boat in the UK but I assume you will go through much of the same process.
I'll give you a bit of my experience below...
1)Some have suggested registering the boat in France or Belgium. Unless you are an EU citizen, French registration is not possible. If you were a resident in the UK, British registration would be possible but France requires that you are an EU citizen to register a boat here. I do not know about Belgian registration but I suspect that they may have the same citizenship restriction for non-EU citizens.

2)I have never been questioned on VAT. My boat is technically exempt since it was built before a certain year and was in the EU on a certain date (I don't know these exact dates but are easily retrievable) but I dont have proof of the second fact. How does one prove that a boat was in the UK on December 31, 19xx? I certainly dont have a marina receipt from the previous owners for that. Again, never been asked.

3)Getting the passeport de navire étranger was a fairly simple process. Somehow, I also didn't pay. I asked about paying and she said it was fine. I am still not sure how that worked out but my passeport de navire étranger has it's little stamp, and you will soon realize that stamps will get you a lot in this country.

4)The RCD/CE question has never surfaced and I doubt you would have a problem unless you 1) register the boat in the EU or 2) sell the boat in the EU.

5)I entered France in March of 2009 with my boat and in a summer of weekend/holiday cruising out of Le Havre (busiest shipping port in France) and sailing the boat 3/4 of the length of the Channel from the east coast of England to Northern Brittany while stopping at several small and large harbors passing boats of Customs, Capitaineries, Police, Affaires Maritimes, Pompiers, etc., I have not once been controlled or asked for my ships papers. I even told a customs officer on the dock at Le Havre that I had tried to check in and get a Passeport de Navire Etranger for my US flagged boat that was technically not yet checked into France and he said, "Oh, that's too bad the office is closed on weekends. We are just here to control some boats at the dock." I went back to work in Paris and took care of it a couple weeks later. Your experience may differ but I have found that the officials can be quite reasonable or maybe just lazy.

6) By far the most difficult part of owning a boat in France is finding a place to keep it. Almost every port has a waiting list - some of these, but not all, are up to 15 years long. There are a few ports without very long waiting lists but they are mostly on the English Channel and have large tides and therefore limited access.

Feel free to send me a private message if you have any more specific questions about sailing or just even relocating to France for work. It is certainly an adventure!

Bon Courage!
-Tom

 

[ReneJK]

You may even want to consider registering the boat in Holland (The Netherlands)

Takes 5 minutes and 30 euro's in any post office and is available for non-Dutch as well as for citizens

Advantages:
- : Anyone can register a boat, even non EU citizens (sail and motor)
- : No CE declaration needed if for private use , even on recent imported 2nd hand boats
- : No proof of insurance needed (boat insurance not mandatory in holland)
- : No Proof of VAT needed , customs will however demand that you can produce a document that states VAT is paid if you are boarded by customs
- : If no hull (HIN) number available put N/A
- : If no engine number available put N/A
- : all other data and measurements can be given by approximation
- : need current personal ID

All data then entered in a computer and the registration is made there and then , takes less than a minute

this all sounds too easy but it really is this easy , I have done it several times with boats bought locally and with boats imported from within and from outside the EU

This registration is mandatory for "fast motorboats" (speed capable >10Kts) and optional for Sailing vessels , optional because the Dutch do not require to register a sail boat but many other countries (all?) have a registration requirement