UK Sailors And Expats In The EU - Run Up To Friday 29th March 2019 & Beyond?

[nortada]

Anyone for licenses? Please form an orderly queue.

The IDP was a bit of a joke as it was so easy to cut an ink stamp out of a potato and stamp all the boxes before exchanging for local license. I still have an "all groups" South African driving license somewhere although it's no doubt expired by now.

Must admit much of my driving overseas was backed by a NATO Travel Order that appeared to work everywhere, even in non-NATO countries.

Still got it (and my Berlin Military Train Pass) but even with out photos, I think I could have some problems explaning at 75 I was still on active service:encouragement: (I promised Deleted User in exchange for best behavior all round, I would desist from my wackie punctuation on this thread)

But back to potatoe stamps, post Brexit, we could set up a cottage (or should that be pottage) industry. First get a visa and then .............................

 

[Sailfree]

I originally posted this thread on the Brexit Forum but Nortada requested that I added it here for the info it contained. Apologies that some info is a repeat of info I posted in #3 on this thread.

I have delete the part relevant to a Friend here that worked and paid taxes in UK for 22yrs had an English Husband and still has 2 English daughters and a number of grandchildren. She is now divorced and has lived with her new UK partner here in Portugal for last few yrs. As a German citizen she never took out UK citizenship and as a result of Brexit she would not be able to visit her UK family for extended periods. They have now sold up in Portugal and moving back to the UK to start life again. She was interviewed on the BBC and there is a page on BBC website that tells her story in more detail. The BBC checked her interpretation of the rules and agreed she had to return to UK (then) by March 2019.

Following info is relevant to those that want to stay in Portugal. I believe spain is similar but I would not preclude Spanish politicians doing something harmful to their economy ref UK retired citizens that live in Spain if they thought they was a greater political advantage to be gained ref Gibraltar.

Original Brexit post in response to Nortadas Question would I be limited to only short UK visits after Brexit:-

"Not so you can retain your UK citizenship and passport and have dual nationality (my understanding is that not all countries allow this but UK does) - no different from the many who are fortunate to be eligible for an Eire passport.

In Portugal you initially get a 5yr residency permit then after 5yrs of living here you can apply for either a permanent residency permit or Portuguese citizenship. A basic understanding of the Portuguese language is required. The government provide FOC language courses but we take private lessons. WE do this as I believe when in Rome etc and its one of my objections to immigrants in the UK where many of the women never learn English and have no chance of integrating. Neither country require you to give up your British citizenship as dual nationality is permitted by both countries.

At present we have completely relocated to Portugal with our home here in Nazare and boat in Nazare marina. We would like to sell the house in the UK but MIL lives there and it will be her home until she goes in a home or dies. At present with the weather here and great social life we enjoy we intend to live here for the foreseeable future. The many expats that have moved here from all over EU (and now many from US) have not done so to watch Coronation street in their house until they die - they are all outward looking and prepared at their retired age to start a new life in a new country so lots of activities here that you can join into. Our sailing trips out to sail among the Dolphins are very popular!

We have warned our kids that if one of us dies we will be cremated in Portugal and while there may be a memorial service in UK but no UK funeral. We have had Portuguese wills done but you are allowed to decide the country law that applied for inheritance so they reflect the UK wills and UK law will take precedence.

A more complicated area is where you are a tax resident and HMRC are understandably reluctant to let you leave. The Automatic HMRC residency tests are applicable (again my understanding for the first 3yrs). Portugal have the simple rule that if you reside in Portugal for most of the year (more than 183days) you are a tax resident of Portugal. At present I complete the tax form in Portugal on income and my UK accountant does the HMRC return for just the UK rental income. I am registered as an overseas landlord. (Addition - my understanding is that to become a tax resident of another country you must demonstrate to HMRC that you have left and UK visits must be limited in the first 3yrs after that is where you live the most).

All above is applicable whether Brexit goes ahead or not. "

 

[Graham376]

Portugal have the simple rule that if you reside in Portugal for most of the year (more than 183days) you are a tax resident of Portugal. At present I complete the tax form in Portugal on income

As a matter of interest, why did you get into the Portuguese tax system? The law may require it but no-one else I know (including ourselves) likes to complicate matters so haven't bothered.

 

[Sailfree]

As a matter of interest, why did you get into the Portuguese tax system? The law may require it but no-one else I know (including ourselves) likes to complicate matters so haven't bothered.

Look up NHR status. Firstly under double taxation treaty agreements you can either be taxed in Portugal or UK on income. You should be in the tax system where you live. To help pensioners settle in Portugal if you apply for NHR status in first 12 months they allow you to receive all pensions free of income tax for 10yrs.

Beware it's not a opportunity to fiddle and you must live here permanently and be able to prove it if required to both the Portuguese authorities and HMRC.

Pensions for civil servants and Services are taxed at source in UK but state pension you decide where you want it paid. In my case its paid direct in € straight into my Portuguse account and exchange rate UK pensions use is not bad.

Note if you are employed or earn money in either country then tax on that income must be paid in that country.

So we live permanently in Portugal and I receive UK pensions tax free here BUT the rental income i receive from a house in UK I declare for tax in UK.

Not sure how long Portuguese NHR status will last here as EU not happy with so many from other EU countries retiring here and bring pensions from other countries. Good for the Portuguese economy though and our social life here.

Lots of info on website Silver Coast Our Home ref various questions about living here and activities. We do the 10 pin bowling every week. Darts once a month and walks on Wed & Fri mornings plus we are popular taking friends out on boat to see the Dolphins. All these activities combine with meals and drinks so they are social events.

Our biggest problem is the constant stream of UK visitors. At times we seem to be running a hotel but no payment for it!!

 

[nortada]

Ver interesting.

As this is a boating forum, may I ask, do you have to have a permanent residence in Portugal to get Portuguese Residencia or would a long term mooring in a marina suffice?

Whilst afloat it is possible to get a Direccao-Geral Dos Impostos Number, (more commonly known as a Fiscal Number) and a Portuguese Bank Account, so why not Residencia?

An alternative, could you rent property to give you a permanent address whilst obtaining residencia or possibly use a friends address?

My thinking is, that berth holders could take Portuguese Residencia and live on board in Portugal for the winter months in but make sure they spent less than 183 days per annum in Portugal. Of course they would continue to pay all of their direct taxes in the UK and hold a UK EHIC,but Portugal would benefit from money spent in Portugal and collect indirect tav in the form of EVA (VAT). Because they would not require any visas they could travel freely around the Shengen Countries.

An additional issue could be that Portugal has a very different attitude to those over 65 who are fully retired.

This could meet the requirements of many of the older liveabords on The Algarve.

I plan to have a much closer look at this option when I return to Portugal at the end of this month.

Any thoughts.

 

[nortada]

I originally posted this thread on the Brexit Forum but Nortada requested that I added it here for the info it contained. Apologies that some info is a repeat of info I posted in #3 on this thread.

I have delete the part relevant to a Friend here that worked and paid taxes in UK for 22yrs had an English Husband and still has 2 English daughters and a number of grandchildren. She is now divorced and has lived with her new UK partner here in Portugal for last few yrs. As a German citizen she never took out UK citizenship and as a result of Brexit she would not be able to visit her UK family for extended periods. They have now sold up in Portugal and moving back to the UK to start life again. She was interviewed on the BBC and there is a page on BBC website that tells her story in more detail. The BBC checked her interpretation of the rules and agreed she had to return to UK (then) by March 2019.

Following info is relevant to those that want to stay in Portugal. I believe spain is similar but I would not preclude Spanish politicians doing something harmful to their economy ref UK retired citizens that live in Spain if they thought they was a greater political advantage to be gained ref Gibraltar.

Original Brexit post in response to Nortadas Question would I be limited to only short UK visits after Brexit:-

"Not so you can retain your UK citizenship and passport and have dual nationality (my understanding is that not all countries allow this but UK does) - no different from the many who are fortunate to be eligible for an Eire passport.

In Portugal you initially get a 5yr residency permit then after 5yrs of living here you can apply for either a permanent residency permit or Portuguese citizenship. A basic understanding of the Portuguese language is required. The government provide FOC language courses but we take private lessons. WE do this as I believe when in Rome etc and its one of my objections to immigrants in the UK where many of the women never learn English and have no chance of integrating. Neither country require you to give up your British citizenship as dual nationality is permitted by both countries.

At present we have completely relocated to Portugal with our home here in Nazare and boat in Nazare marina. We would like to sell the house in the UK but MIL lives there and it will be her home until she goes in a home or dies. At present with the weather here and great social life we enjoy we intend to live here for the foreseeable future. The many expats that have moved here from all over EU (and now many from US).

SailFree, many thanks for the re-post, your messages raises many intersting points.

From your post it would appear that US citizens have little problem getting Portuguese Residencia so it would follow that British citizens could still obtain Portuguese Residencia post Brexit.

Wonder if US citizens who get Portuguese Residencia keep their US residency (ie enjoy dual nationality). Whatever, I am fairly certain they still have a tax liability in the US.

Could you please ask around?

 

[nortada]

An Apology️

My fault, but this thread is becoming increasingly myopic, centering on Iberia.

So to broaden it out, apart from Portugal, which other EU countries permit dual nationalty?

Point being, the solution I am suggesting could also work for expats/liveaboards and long-term cruisers planning to visit other EU countries.

It should get around EU regulations but will depend on the attitude of would be host countries.

 

[macd]

Whatever, I am fairly certain they still have a tax liability in the US.

The IRS has a long reach and a determined grasp. A US national's worldwide income is subject to U.S. income tax, regardless of where they reside, albeit with some exclusions for foreign earnings. Not relevant to Brexit, but perhaps reason to be glad you're not in their clutches.

 

[Sailfree]

I will try to answer point but some areas are outside my knowledge, I can only state our experience and my opinion.

1. I was aware of the beauty (its still green in summer and has seasons), warmer weather, lower cost of living on the Silver Coast and the NHR 10yr tax status before we came here and it did all appear attractive. Why live somewhere where you are poor when you can live somewhere where you are relatively rich (by comparison).


2. I think the Portuguese are happy to issue you with a Fiscal Number (NIF) however you stay here. The Portuguese have a centralised computer system that works (but that may be easier for a population of 9m than the UK with 68m!) When you buy anything or pay any bill you can add your NIF number to the receipt. At the end of the year you are asked on the Finances website to validate all you receipts and add any that have been omitted. My understanding is that this system is to encourage reduction of the "black" economy as they allow a certain % to be allowed against income tax liability in the case of medical/prescription costs, car repair costs and possibly other expenses. WRT household costs esp. repairs and maintenance it is added to the cost of your property in assessing any capital gains when you sell the property. There may be other advantages in addition to being transparently honest! Capital gains in Portugal are due on 1st property unless you reinvest gains in a dearer property that will be your primary home. We are hoping to buy a house here soon which will be dearer than our current apartment on which we have gained probably 50% in 2.5yrs. Not sure there is any advantage in having a Fiscal number here unless you are actually living here. May be necessary to buy a Portuguese registered car?


3. Aware of the rules we put in an offer to buy an apartment on the 2nd day here in January 2016. Persuading factors (stupid I know) were we had just stayed with friend that had retired to Cornwall, had a lovely meal but paid £17 for G & T and £5 for each coffee (posh restaurant) . We then went skiing in Corchevel and paid €5 for a cup of coffee. In January 2016 we sat on the sea front at Nazare in sunshine and 16 deg C (weather here due to Atlantic breezes never gets frost and rarely goes above 26 deg C) and bought 2 coffees for €1.60. I remarked to my wife that we would be relatively rich here. Wife also suffers from arthritis which reduces in warm weather. Weather warning - Spring here in 2018 was worse in since records began with lots of rain. Never as bad as UK but not what we expected!

4. We initially got a Fiscal number using our UK address. The seller agreed to give us a 12 month rental agreement while we arranged the finances by mortgaging the house in UK and sorted paperwork. He agreed to deduct the rent payments from the purchase price. We used the rental agreement to arrange a Portuguese bank account, residency permits from both the junta (similar to parish council) and commune (similar to county council). Once finances were in place we completed the purchase after some 3 months then just tearing up the 12 month rental agreement.

5. We applied for a NHR status once we had the rental agreement (its essential you do this in 1st 12 months) having never lived in Portugal before or never having a previous Fiscal Number as this precludes you being eligible for NHR status. My understanding is its to encourage people of independent means to move to Portugal permanently and spend money from other countries to buy property and spend money and improve the Portugal economy.


5. The purchase takes place in front of a independent Notary with a large screen who types out the purchase agreement and transfer of deeds in front of the seller and his representative, the buyer and sellers lawyer and the estate agent and in our case our lawyer were present around a large table (our lawyer was nominated as a translator). A translator appears important in Portugal to ensure fairness and we were required to provide one (again our lawyer) and 2 witnesses that spoke English when we did our Portuguese wills. The purpose of this is that the independent Notary has to ensure that clear title exists on the property and our solicitor has to check that the property has no debts (debts are against the property here not the person!)

6. To get a residence permit I believe they need proof of a normal 12 month rental agreement or proof of purchase. An address for 2 wks Airbnb may not cut it nor staying in a marina for a couple of weeks. They also ask that you have independent means of support as they don't want people who will live on Portuguese benefits. We are aware of a number of retired US citizens who live here. They have independent means of support but I believe they take advantage of the local health system as one says their monthly bill for medication in US is $600pm. I have seen reports that put Portuguese health system as 14th in the world while UK is 15th but opinions vary dependant on personal experiences. Our experience has been good both for SWMBO and a couple of visitors - surprised though that if you need a Dr you phone for an ambulance (could be manned by firemen!) and they take you to health centre or hospital - no DR house calls. I believe Us citizens still need to complete US IRS declaration every year to retain US citizenship even if no US tax due - stand to be corrected if anyone knows better.

7. I get the impression that poorer countries like Greece, Spain and Portugal welcome anyone that has independent means (pensions) that want to live there providing they are not a burden on the social benefit system or the health system.

8. I am unaware though of any country like Portugal that once you are required to be part of their tax system they help you by allowing you to live there for 10yrs tax free and under dual taxation treaties you are not required to pay tax in another country. I don't think it will last much longer though but as retired income is so much lower it may be other countries are happy for retired people to move and possible become a burden on another countries health system.


Sorry I cant answer more specific questions but described how we moved permanently to Portugal and my best understanding how it applies to others. Hopefully this post in conjunction with my previous post above #162 and #164 are helpful to others.


I would add that prior to coming out her I posted on this website (scuttlebutt or lounge IIRC) stating intentions and date of initial visit and got lots of invites from people (many on boats) and visited them in January 2016 and got lots of helpful advice and local knowledge - too many to thank here but see my posts from 2016. Nortada was one of them!!

 

[jordanbasset]

This thread has so far confirmed my initial thoughts, for those living long enough in one country with a settled address it should not be too hard to get residency and so overcome many of the issues.
For those travelling around more, spending a few weeks/months here and there it is likely to be an issue unless any agreement allows freedom of movement

 

[Tony Cross]

This thread has so far confirmed my initial thoughts, for those living long enough in one country with a settled address it should not be too hard to get residency and so overcome many of the issues.

From the Europe EU website at https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/residence/residence-rights/pensioners/index_en.htm

If you have lived legally, meeting the conditions to stay in another EU country for a continuous period of 5 years you automatically acquire the right of permanent residence there. This means that you can stay in the country as long as you want.

 

[nortada]

The IRS has a long reach and a determined grasp. A US national's worldwide income is subject to U.S. income tax, regardless of where they reside, albeit with some exclusions for foreign earnings. Not relevant to Brexit, but perhaps reason to be glad you're not in their clutches.

As such agree, not directly relevant to Brexit but what is relevant is that Portugal will give US (non-EU) nationals Portuguese Residencia.

From this it could be deduced that Portugal will still give UK nationals residencia post Brexit so there is little need to apply for residencia before 29th Mar 2019.

Next question, if my premise is wrong, how long does it take to get residencia from the initial application?

Our fiscal numbers (which are valid for life) were issued on the day of application and we were given a temporary certificate there and then. In our case, the permanent card arrived at the marina office (our Portuguese address) about 2 weeks later.

 

[Graham376]

Look up NHR status. Firstly under double taxation treaty agreements you can either be taxed in Portugal or UK on income. You should be in the tax system where you live. To help pensioners settle in Portugal if you apply for NHR status in first 12 months they allow you to receive all pensions free of income tax for 10yrs.

We're in a different situation to yourselves in wanting to keep UK as our main home and tax residence and were advised by Portuguese Finances that we don't have to file tax returns as no income here. My Portuguese permanent residence was taken out more to "hedge my bets" with an unknown EU future.

 

[nortada]

We're in a different situation to yourselves in wanting to keep UK as our main home and tax residence and were advised by Portuguese Finances that we don't have to file tax returns as no income here. My Portuguese permanent residence was taken out more to "hedge my bets" with an unknown EU future.

So, even if you exceed 183 days per year in Portugal, provided you have no income earned in Portugal, you still do not have to tender a Portuguese tax return?

How sensible.

I now just have to convince the authorities that the boat is our residence in Portugal!

 

[Sailfree]

We're in a different situation to yourselves in wanting to keep UK as our main home and tax residence and were advised by Portuguese Finances that we don't have to file tax returns as no income here. My Portuguese permanent residence was taken out more to "hedge my bets" with an unknown EU future.

I understand.

I think they are OK providing you are registered for tax in one country but personally feel it should be in the country where you live the most as you enjoy their services eg at least roads etc.

We severed links with UK and Portugal is our home. I think it would be difficult to settle back in UK now with climate and loss of the social life we enjoy here.

Currently getting a feel for house prices possibly more inland with a good view.

 

[Graham376]

So, even if you exceed 183 days per year in Portugal, provided you have no income earned in Portugal, you still do not have to tender a Portuguese tax return?

How sensible.

I now just have to convince the authorities that the boat is our residence in Portugal!

Just remember this is Portugal and it seems every official has his/her own interpretation of which rules to follow. My wife who is a citizen has never filed a tax return as she has never worked in Portugal. Proving residence may be your biggest problem.

 

[nortada]

Just remember this is Portugal and it seems every official has his/her own interpretation of which rules to follow. My wife who is a citizen has never filed a tax return as she has never worked in Portugal. Proving residence may be your biggest problem.

Agree. Now in search of a friendly official.

Or a suitable residence.

Or cunning plan.

Just PMd you.

N

 

[greeny]

I will try to answer point but some areas are outside my knowledge, I can only state our experience and my opinion.

1. I was aware of the beauty (its still green in summer and has seasons), warmer weather, lower cost of living on the Silver Coast and the NHR 10yr tax status before we came here and it did all appear attractive. Why live somewhere where you are poor when you can live somewhere where you are relatively rich (by comparison).


2. I think the Portuguese are happy to issue you with a Fiscal Number (NIF) however you stay here. The Portuguese have a centralised computer system that works (but that may be easier for a population of 9m than the UK with 68m!) When you buy anything or pay any bill you can add your NIF number to the receipt. At the end of the year you are asked on the Finances website to validate all you receipts and add any that have been omitted. My understanding is that this system is to encourage reduction of the "black" economy as they allow a certain % to be allowed against income tax liability in the case of medical/prescription costs, car repair costs and possibly other expenses. WRT household costs esp. repairs and maintenance it is added to the cost of your property in assessing any capital gains when you sell the property. There may be other advantages in addition to being transparently honest! Capital gains in Portugal are due on 1st property unless you reinvest gains in a dearer property that will be your primary home. We are hoping to buy a house here soon which will be dearer than our current apartment on which we have gained probably 50% in 2.5yrs. Not sure there is any advantage in having a Fiscal number here unless you are actually living here. May be necessary to buy a Portuguese registered car?


3. Aware of the rules we put in an offer to buy an apartment on the 2nd day here in January 2016. Persuading factors (stupid I know) were we had just stayed with friend that had retired to Cornwall, had a lovely meal but paid £17 for G & T and £5 for each coffee (posh restaurant) . We then went skiing in Corchevel and paid €5 for a cup of coffee. In January 2016 we sat on the sea front at Nazare in sunshine and 16 deg C (weather here due to Atlantic breezes never gets frost and rarely goes above 26 deg C) and bought 2 coffees for €1.60. I remarked to my wife that we would be relatively rich here. Wife also suffers from arthritis which reduces in warm weather. Weather warning - Spring here in 2018 was worse in since records began with lots of rain. Never as bad as UK but not what we expected!

4. We initially got a Fiscal number using our UK address. The seller agreed to give us a 12 month rental agreement while we arranged the finances by mortgaging the house in UK and sorted paperwork. He agreed to deduct the rent payments from the purchase price. We used the rental agreement to arrange a Portuguese bank account, residency permits from both the junta (similar to parish council) and commune (similar to county council). Once finances were in place we completed the purchase after some 3 months then just tearing up the 12 month rental agreement.

5. We applied for a NHR status once we had the rental agreement (its essential you do this in 1st 12 months) having never lived in Portugal before or never having a previous Fiscal Number as this precludes you being eligible for NHR status. My understanding is its to encourage people of independent means to move to Portugal permanently and spend money from other countries to buy property and spend money and improve the Portugal economy.


5. The purchase takes place in front of a independent Notary with a large screen who types out the purchase agreement and transfer of deeds in front of the seller and his representative, the buyer and sellers lawyer and the estate agent and in our case our lawyer were present around a large table (our lawyer was nominated as a translator). A translator appears important in Portugal to ensure fairness and we were required to provide one (again our lawyer) and 2 witnesses that spoke English when we did our Portuguese wills. The purpose of this is that the independent Notary has to ensure that clear title exists on the property and our solicitor has to check that the property has no debts (debts are against the property here not the person!)

6. To get a residence permit I believe they need proof of a normal 12 month rental agreement or proof of purchase. An address for 2 wks Airbnb may not cut it nor staying in a marina for a couple of weeks. They also ask that you have independent means of support as they don't want people who will live on Portuguese benefits. We are aware of a number of retired US citizens who live here. They have independent means of support but I believe they take advantage of the local health system as one says their monthly bill for medication in US is $600pm. I have seen reports that put Portuguese health system as 14th in the world while UK is 15th but opinions vary dependant on personal experiences. Our experience has been good both for SWMBO and a couple of visitors - surprised though that if you need a Dr you phone for an ambulance (could be manned by firemen!) and they take you to health centre or hospital - no DR house calls. I believe Us citizens still need to complete US IRS declaration every year to retain US citizenship even if no US tax due - stand to be corrected if anyone knows better.

7. I get the impression that poorer countries like Greece, Spain and Portugal welcome anyone that has independent means (pensions) that want to live there providing they are not a burden on the social benefit system or the health system.

8. I am unaware though of any country like Portugal that once you are required to be part of their tax system they help you by allowing you to live there for 10yrs tax free and under dual taxation treaties you are not required to pay tax in another country. I don't think it will last much longer though but as retired income is so much lower it may be other countries are happy for retired people to move and possible become a burden on another countries health system.


Sorry I cant answer more specific questions but described how we moved permanently to Portugal and my best understanding how it applies to others. Hopefully this post in conjunction with my previous post above #162 and #164 are helpful to others.


I would add that prior to coming out her I posted on this website (scuttlebutt or lounge IIRC) stating intentions and date of initial visit and got lots of invites from people (many on boats) and visited them in January 2016 and got lots of helpful advice and local knowledge - too many to thank here but see my posts from 2016. Nortada was one of them!!

Thanks Sailfree, some interesting info in there.
Just a point on item 5 about NHR to clarify the requirements.
NHR success is dependant on whether you have paid any income tax or submitted a tax return in Portugal prior to applying for NHR. If you have then the application will be rejected. It's definitely nothing to do with how long you've been here or whether you already have a fiscal number and for how long. I had been here in PT for 15yrs and had a fiscal number for 14 of those, but was still successful with NHR application.

 

[nortada]

SailFree posted:

At present we have completely relocated to Portugal with our home here in Nazare and boat in Nazare marina. We would like to sell the house in the UK but MIL lives there and it will be her home until she goes in a home or dies. At present with the weather here and great social life we enjoy we intend to live here for the foreseeable future. The many expats that have moved here from all over EU (and now many from US) have not done so to watch Coronation street in their house until they die - they are all outward looking and prepared at their retired age to start a new life in a new country so lots of activities here that you can join into. Our sailing trips out to sail among the Dolphins are very popular!

We're in a different situation to yourselves in wanting to keep UK as our main home and tax residence and were advised by Portuguese Finances that we don't have to file tax returns as no income here. My Portuguese permanent residence was taken out more to "hedge my bets" with an unknown EU future.

Graham your messages highlights the underlying problem that Brits Abroad have a wide range of expectations and ambitions.

From SailFree on the Silver Coast, who wants embrace everything Portuguese including the culture to those who wish to live in Portugal but in British environment - memories of The Raj!

Then we have those like us who want to base our boats in Portugal and spend up to 6 months per annum in the country but do not want to buy property. There are also those like Garold and Sailaboutvic who wish to roam the Southern EU and then the folk on inland waterways in Northern Europe.

All have different issues but the common problem is the freedom of movement to continue their chosen life style.

Back to Portugal - where there is a clear divide between Brits on the Silver (West Coast), many of whom who wish to integrate fully and the far larger Brit community along The Algarve, who, by and large, wish to live in Portugal but retain a British way of life (even watch Corrie) and place greater importance on the more Mediterranean climate. There is also another community in The Alentejo hinterland (Hello Coimbra) but as little or nothing is heard of them we must assume they have gone totally native. :encouragement:

From the numerous PMs I am receiving it is becoming increasingly obvious that EU countries have very different systems and attitudes to foreign national residing in their country. Then there is Schengen!

So where from here?

I would like to think that the EU and UK will negotiate our problem away but think it unlikely. I do not think sitting on the fence and hoping for the best is in any of our interests.

Whilst there will be a common Brussels theme on freedom of movement, because of all of the variations, I think individual areas, whilst mindful of how other Brit communities are attempting to resolve their issues, will have to seek their own salvation.

Possibly we in Portugal have the easier task. Portugal has made it abundantly clear that, whatever the rest of the EU do, Portugal wants to, not only retain it's current Brit population, but encourage more to come. Their Non-Habitual Residents (NHR) Tax allowances bear testament. Moreover, Portugal has a long history of paying scant regard to EU rules and regulations that do not suit them.

So in Portugal we could be pushing at an open door.

Problem is, officials in Portugal have a long track record of interpreting the rules as they see fit, so our task is to locate the right official and before committing, make sure that they will act as anticipated.

So what to do?

We return to Portugal in a couple of weeks where we intend to have conversations with the movers and shakers who have a lot to lose if the British sailing community is forced to vote with their feet and suggest that these movers and shakers establish local officials' thinking and possibly give that door a further shove open.

My aim is to confirm that the floating community, should they wish it, can get permission to continue to visit Portugal under the pre-Brexit arrangement. Rather than full residencia, possibly a Residential Permit may be the answer?

N

 

[nortada]

Assuming that it is possible for liveaboards to get a Residential Permit (RP), the other side of the equation has to be considered.

What will the UK's attitude be (especially HMRC and NHS) to British Nationals who acquire a foreign RP?

It is my guess that provided that you have a residential address and are on an Electoral Roll in the UK, pay your direct taxes and clearly demonstrate that you are still British by regularly visiting and residing in the UK, then they will be fairly relaxed. However, it would be nice to know.

Having made it clear that I am exploring opportunities overseas, I am a little reluctant to open this dialogue with HMG (HMRC) so somebody less vulnerable, might like to lead on this aspect (Crisby)?

Just to be absolutely clear, if push becomes shove, we will leave the EU for the UK. AS I anticipate will many other liveaboards - a straw poll?