UK Sailors And Expats In The EU - Run Up To Friday 29th March 2019 & Beyond?

Tony Cross

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Re: Back to Liveaboard

Getting passports stamped for formal clearance will surely be a requirement if we are subject to the 90 day rule, that is something I personally do not want to see, unless extensions are available.

I know it’s all a guess at the moment but the longer it goes on and the closer we get to our ‘go date’ the less confident I become.

Chris

Whatever Brussels may say, I think it will be down to the country in question.

I agree, in fact I'd go further; it's likely to be up the port police/immigration officer you're dealing with. This will be even more likely if we get a no-deal exit.
 

nortada

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Re: Back to Liveaboard

No, the Portuguese don't talk to HMRC if you only apply for residence but may do so if you get into the tax system here. May contact DVLA if you swap driving license but I haven't done that.

Having residence has not had any adverse effect on anything. We still live in UK part of the year, pay taxes, boat on SSR etc. No earnings in Portugal, only current account at bank so no need for tax returns.

No check on time spent here when applying for residence but, having an address gives the impression that one is actually resident.

Whether this arrangement will stand the test of time and trouble ahead, I have no idea. If flying direct to Portugal with residence (or any other country where residence held) then passport may be stamped for unlimited stay but, if driving down via France as port of entry for instance, then will the 90 day rule apply ???? Lots of motor home owners in the same situation as us.

My own thoughts are that having official residence in an EU state and basing the boat there may be better than just being a nomad.

Graham agree all you say.

Can you advise, how long it took from applying to getting residencia?:
 

Graham376

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Re: Back to Liveaboard

Graham agree all you say.

Can you advise, how long it took from applying to getting residencia?:

Sorry, I can't remember exactly as it was quite a few years ago when I did it at local level but, I think it was a matter of days. Maybe Sailfree is in a better position to comment as he's more recently arrived?

Permanent took quite a while as appointments have to be made, often several months wait. Don't know if you can go straight for permanent status, best visit SEF and ask.
 

nortada

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Re: Back to Liveaboard

Sorry, I can't remember exactly as it was quite a few years ago when I did it at local level but, I think it was a matter of days. Maybe Sailfree is in a better position to comment as he's more recently arrived?

Permanent took quite a while as appointments have to be made, often several months wait. Don't know if you can go straight for permanent status, best visit SEF and ask.

Thanks, I will get onto it when back in town and report progress.

Anticipate this could become a class action.
 

Garold

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Re: Back to Liveaboard

Since the Brexit arrangements are not clear, and we don’t seem to fall into any of the workarounds, I have slightly changed our wintering plans.

We have arganised to leave our boat with IBA (Ionian Boat Assistance) at Nidri and they will organise our winter layup at Cleopatra Yard and also do all winter maintenance. I have provisionally booked us for launch mid May but this can be extended to shorten the summer if we have only 90 days.

Though this may result in slightly higher costs and means that I will not have the option of doing any work myself (unlikely anyway!) I thought that this gave me an the best option if we crash out of the EU without a deal.

I’m not sure what the no-deal likelihood is but I think it exists. So if we are restricted to 90/180 days, I want to use all my days for sailing, not for boat fixing/cleaning/servicing etc.

I’m sure that some will say that I should be more confident but I would be annoyed with myself if I hadn’t planned for all the possible outcomes. I hope that it proves unnecessary.

As an aside, I’m also hoping that Croatia stays out of Schengen a while longer. On reflection, Croatia + Ionian probably make a decent cruising ground and would allow us more than 90 days.

Garold

Ps. Nortada, you are doing a great job. Thanks.
 

jordanbasset

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Since the Brexit arrangements are not clear, and we don’t seem to fall into any of the workarounds, I have slightly changed our wintering plans.

We have arganised to leave our boat with IBA (Ionian Boat Assistance) at Nidri and they will organise our winter layup at Cleopatra Yard and also do all winter maintenance. I have provisionally booked us for launch mid May but this can be extended to shorten the summer if we have only 90 days.

Though this may result in slightly higher costs and means that I will not have the option of doing any work myself (unlikely anyway!) I thought that this gave me an the best option if we crash out of the EU without a deal.

I’m not sure what the no-deal likelihood is but I think it exists. So if we are restricted to 90/180 days, I want to use all my days for sailing, not for boat fixing/cleaning/servicing etc.

I’m sure that some will say that I should be more confident but I would be annoyed with myself if I hadn’t planned for all the possible outcomes. I hope that it proves unnecessary.

As an aside, I’m also hoping that Croatia stays out of Schengen a while longer. On reflection, Croatia + Ionian probably make a decent cruising ground and would allow us more than 90 days.

Garold

Ps. Nortada, you are doing a great job. Thanks.
Sounds like a good plan
 

Graham376

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Slight drift but tied in to many of the suggestions above. Those taking up residence in another State and having property there (maybe this includes the boat?) should be aware of inheritance law which in most States determines "who gets what", unlike the UK where one's will rules.

Any wills should note what's commonly referred to as Brussels 4, (Regulation (EU) 650/2012) which allows people to choose which countries law they with to have their estate dealt under. Although the UK haven't signed up to this, Portugal for instance has so, if a will contains the declaration, UK law for inheritance rules.
 

BurnitBlue

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Suppose the still dreaded Greek tax on cruising boats is implemented, how will that work for a 90 day limit. I know the boat can stay 12 month but how many owners will cough up a 12 month tax license and be effectively prevented from taking care of his boat. "Sorry sir, but your boat is sinking slowly. We realise that you have used up your 90 day allowance so what do you want us to do? sincerely the Marina staff ".

A classic double whammy.
 

DownWest

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The French inheiritance laws dictate leaving your estate to the surviving spouse & children. As a foreign national you can leave it to other than a descendant, but the State will take over 60%. Napoleonic Law.
 

Graham376

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The French inheiritance laws dictate leaving your estate to the surviving spouse & children. As a foreign national you can leave it to other than a descendant, but the State will take over 60%. Napoleonic Law.

This document explains the general situation but if people have cut all ties with the UK as their habitual residence, then I think they just have to accept the law of the country in which they have become resident. https://www.howardkennedy.com/media/504541/brussels-iv-eu-succession-regulation.pdf
 

jordanbasset

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nortada

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Slight drift but tied in to many of the suggestions above. Those taking up residence in another State and having property there (maybe this includes the boat?) should be aware of inheritance law which in most States determines "who gets what", unlike the UK where one's will rules.

Any wills should note what's commonly referred to as Brussels 4, (Regulation (EU) 650/2012) which allows people to choose which countries law they with to have their estate dealt under. Although the UK haven't signed up to this, Portugal for instance has so, if a will contains the declaration, UK law for inheritance rules.

https://www.blevinsfranks.com/news/blevinsfranks/article/inheritance-tax-and-domicile

It’s my understanding that even if you are resident abroad but still British Domicile, your estate is still be liable to UK Inheritance Tax (IHT) on all your assets above £325,000 worldwide and changing your domicile status is not easy.

See the link above.

For example; if you visit the UK, have a UK passport or any UK assets (like a UK bank account) then HMRC will class you as a UK domicile and apply (IHT) at 40% on all your assets over the £325,000 IHT allowance, worldwide.
 
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Graham376

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It’s my understanding that even if you are resident abroad but still British Domicile, your estate is still be liable to UK Inheritance Tax (IHT) on all your assets above £325,000 worldwide and changing your domicile status is not easy.

Correct. The intent is not to avoid UK death duties but to avoid foreign estate going to someone you don't want to inherit. In Portugal for instance, when F in L died, 50% went M i L and the other 50% was divided between M i L & 3 children. When M i L died, was divided into the 3 children but one share to dead son passed to his children. No way to avoid kids, even illegitimate or, from previous marriages from inheriting and it can queer any future sale of property as ALL have to agree.
 
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DownWest

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Correct. The intent is not to avoid UK death duties but to avoid foreign estate going to someone you don't want to inherit. In Portugal for instance, when F in L died, 50% went M i L and the other 50% was divided between M i L & 3 children. When M i L died, was divided into the 3 children but one share to dead son passed to his children. No way to avoid kids, even illegitimate or, from previous marriages from inheriting and it can queer any future sale of property as ALL have to agree.

Same here, causes endless family friction.
 

nortada

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European Health Insurance Card To Survive Brexit?

You may know this, Nortada, but not everyone will:
In the 'divorce' phase of Brexit negotiations last December, it was agreed that UK nationals formally resident in an EU27 state would retain that right at the time of Brexit. The right would be limited to the EU state of residence and would not represent full freedom of movement: Schengen '3 months in 6' terms would apply for the rest of the EU, although some powerful voices within Brussels expressed the hope that it would be extended.
('Time of Brexit' wasn't quite pinned down: the UK regarded it as March 2019; the EU as the end of any transition period.)

Regarding your other point about exceptions to Schengen visa terms on the part of individual EU countries: this is a fact. In most cases it hinges on obligations created by older treaties by the member state in question.

A few other random thoughts generated by my own experience:
Health insurance is another unresolved concern. David Davies stated a year or more ago that the UK gov desired to remain within the EEA EHIC scheme. This was formally reiterated in the white paper agreed at Chequers recently. (Granted, that has been widely trashed both in the UK and EU27, but it remains the nearest the UK has to a stated policy.) To the best of my knowledge there has been no opposition to that expressed by EU representatives. However, even those tentative desires may well not survive a no-deal brexit.

Also on the subject of healthcare, but for anyone considering formal EU residence: if EHIC rights survive, so will pensioners' Form S1 entitlement to national health service rights in the country of residence. This also acts as a guarantee of UK NHS entitlement for non-UK resident Brits, without time limit. (It may even survive for existing S1 holders in the event of a no-EHIC Brexit.) I recall reading on here that the S1 application process is a something of an ordeal in Portugal. I wouldn't know about that, but found it both straightforward and worthwhile in Italy. Since it's free, I'd urge anyone considering re-locating to explore it.

Driving licences: full UK driving licences can currently be exchanged as of right for local ones by new residents in the EU28. That may end next March. So, unless you plan on taking a test in a language you're not very fluent, which you'll probably fail, get your local licence before then.

As ever, the bottom line for most of these issues is to wet a digit and hold it up to the breeze. Or simply hold up a digit to your culprit of choice ;)

Finally, well done for seeking a fact-based run-down on Brexit. I have my doubts that it will remain that way but hope for the best,

From my latest investigations, it looks more than likely that the EHIC system will survive Brexit in it's present form.

Possibly because there are four times as many EU citizens in the UK than there are UK citizens in the EU.

Slight drift - Driving Licenses, unless they are getting a residency, why would anybody wish to exchange their UK license? Once a resident they would be able to surrender their UK Driving License and apply for a local one in the normal way.

Currently, many expats with residencia still drive on a UK Driving License. I am told that in Portugal, whilst you can drive a car with Portuguese or British Plates on a British License, it is illegal to drive a car with British Plates on a Portuguese Driving Licence?

Prior to the EU we were able to use a UK Driving license worldwide so can't see any reason why this should change post Brexit.

In a similar vein, would the RYA ICC still be valid post Brexit? As to date, so far as we can establish, nobody has ever been asked to produce an ICC, bit irrelevant.
 
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Graham376

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Re: European Health Insurance Card To Survive Brexit?

Driving Licenses, unless they are getting a residency, why would anybody wish to exchange their UK license? Once a resident they would be able to surrender their UK Driving License and apply for a local one in the normal way.

Currently, many expats with residencia still drive on a UK Driving License. I am told that in Portugal, whilst you can drive a car with Portuguese or British Plates on a British License, it is illegal to drive a car with British Plates on a Portuguese Driving Licence? Prior to the EU we were able to use a UK Driving license worldwide so can't see any reason why this should change post Brexit.


IIRC, a UK driving license should be exchanged after 3 months and a UK car is supposed to be matriculated but, in Portugal, the import tax is crazy expensive. A mate was quoted over 3,000 euro for an old Merc. On return to the UK, the Portuguese license has then to be exchanged for a UK one. On checking with DVLA, both can't be held at the same time.

Prior to EU, our UK licenses weren't valid overseas, we had to obtain one of the two international ones from AA or RAC.

In a similar vein, would the RYA ICC still be valid post Brexit? As to date, so far as we can establish, nobody has ever been asked to produce an ICC, bit irrelevant

I don't see why that should change.
 

nortada

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Re: European Health Insurance Card To Survive Brexit?

Driving Licenses, unless they are getting a residency, why would anybody wish to exchange their UK license? Once a resident they would be able to surrender their UK Driving License and apply for a local one in the normal way.

Currently, many expats with residencia still drive on a UK Driving License. I am told that in Portugal, whilst you can drive a car with Portuguese or British Plates on a British License, it is illegal to drive a car with British Plates on a Portuguese Driving Licence? Prior to the EU we were able to use a UK Driving license worldwide so can't see any reason why this should change post Brexit.


IIRC, a UK driving license should be exchanged after 3 months and a UK car is supposed to be matriculated but, in Portugal, the import tax is crazy expensive. A mate was quoted over 3,000 euro for an old Merc. On return to the UK, the Portuguese license has then to be exchanged for a UK one. On checking with DVLA, both can't be held at the same time.

Prior to EU, our UK licenses weren't valid overseas, we had to obtain one of the two international ones from AA or RAC.

In a similar vein, would the RYA ICC still be valid post Brexit? As to date, so far as we can establish, nobody has ever been asked to produce an ICC, bit irrelevant

I don't see why that should change.

Graham, we appear to agree and thanks for the extra background.

At present, rather than playing in the Brexit playground I am trying to establish the areas that Brexit could have an impact on Liveabords and Expats in the EU (especially in Iberia). Not having a car in Portugal, we are limited to hire cars so my car questions are for the benefit of others. I accept that my ICC observation was a bit of a red herring but the MP could take a greater interest in British flagged vessels post Brexit.

Like, many others, we very soon (like the end of Sep 2018) have to make decisions for 2019 & beyond so need the clearest picture possible.

For us the biggest question is if we got Portuguese Residencia, what impact would it have on life in the UK (Tax, health etc.).
 
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macd

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Re: European Health Insurance Card To Survive Brexit?

Driving Licenses, unless they are getting a residency, why would anybody wish to exchange their UK license?
No reason at all. Nor would they be eligible for such an exchange. On the other hand, a UK driving licence may not be applied for or renewed by anyone not resident in the UK.

Once a resident they would be able to surrender their UK Driving License and apply for a local one in the normal way.
Up to Brexit, yes. But quite possibly not post-Brexit. Hence my suggestion that anyone becoming resident in the EU27 apply before then.

Prior to the EU we were able to use a UK Driving license worldwide so can't see any reason why this should change post Brexit.
As Graham wrote, that was by no means universally so, and still isn't. UK licence holders may need an International Driving Permit to drive in the EU27. IDP is regulated under treaty (the Geneva Convention, no less) and may only be issued by a person's country of residence. This would put in a bit of a pickle anyone domiciled in, say, Germany with only a UK licence but wishing to drive in a country where IDP was required.

In a similar vein, would the RYA ICC still be valid post Brexit? As to date, so far as we can establish, nobody has ever been asked to produce an ICC, bit irrelevant.
Although moves to establish ICC originated in the EC, it was and remains established under UN Treaty. So nothing to do with EU membership.
 

Graham376

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Re: European Health Insurance Card To Survive Brexit?

UK licence holders may need an International Driving Permit to drive in the EU27. IDP is regulated under treaty (the Geneva Convention, no less) and may only be issued by a person's country of residence.

The IDP was a bit of a joke as it was so easy to cut an ink stamp out of a potato and stamp all the boxes before exchanging for local license. I still have an "all groups" South African driving license somewhere although it's no doubt expired by now.
 
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