UK Sailors And Expats In The EU - Run Up To Friday 29th March 2019 & Beyond?

[colind3782]

However, there is always a way, you can get a passport page reduced to the size of a credit card, signed on the back by a notary as a true copy and encapsulated in Fablon. Job done.

I scanned my passport, reduced it to CC size and laminated it. I carry it in my wallet when in Spain (and anywhere else!), in addition to my driving licence.

 

[nortada]

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Very good that it's back where it should be. Some common sense.
Would it also be good if the various points, items of information, arguments even, were not buried in the inevitable ebb and flow of topics, thoughts, etc over many posts and pages, but could somehow be sorted and filed in a kind of reference Wiki. eg https://www.dokuwiki.org/dokuwiki ?

You have got me thinking how to get the specific information you require.

One way would post your question which could be answered by others. Crowd-answering? (Promised Deleted User not to use my favourite punctuation! )

For example:

Nortada, spends up to 183 days on board in Portugal a year.

Boat has SSR and T2L and meets Portuguese safety requirements. Insured with Amlin UK.

Us - Both Age over 65. Not an expat, rather a long-term visitor so don't have/want Portuguese Residencia. But do have a fiscal numbers.

Post Brexit want to continue in the same way.

Could getting a 6-month Portuguese visa help my situation?

Can I register in Portugal without getting Portuguese residencia?

Any thoughts?

Then those with the knowledge or thought could offer (or if sensitive PM/email)) their advice.

 

[Tony Cross]

I scanned my passport, reduced it to CC size and laminated it. I carry it in my wallet when in Spain (and anywhere else!), in addition to my driving licence.

I've done that too, it's accepted everywhere in Greece (except probably at immigration controls) as proof of ID. I suspect they don't realise I've done the shrinking...

 

[nortada]

I scanned my passport, reduced it to CC size and laminated it. I carry it in my wallet when in Spain (and anywhere else!), in addition to my driving licence.

I've done that too, it's accepted everywhere in Greece (except probably at immigration controls) as proof of ID. I suspect they don't realise I've done the shrinking...

Possibly the British Government should take a leaf from you book and provide a notarised credit card sized passport with every new passport for use in transit and as a back-up to the main document?

 

[Fr J Hackett]

Possibly the British Government should take a leaf from you book and provide a notarised credit card sized passport with every new passport for use in transit and as a back-up to the main document?

Or perhaps horror of horrors an ID card. Sorry about the fred drift but I can't help myself.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Or perhaps horror of horrors an ID card. Sorry about the fred drift but I can't help myself.

Yes, odd how ID cards suddenly seem to be flavour of the month in the UK with the very people who denounced them on civil liberty terms when Labour proposed the idea in 2008. How times change, eh? Personally I have never seen an issue with ID cards

 

[RAI]

Re: Back to Liveaboard

You have got me thinking how to get the specific information you require.

One way would post your question which could be answered by others. Crowd-answering? (Promised Deleted User not to use my favourite punctuation! )

For example:

Nortada, spends up to 183 days on board in Portugal a year.

Boat has SSR and T2L and meets Portuguese safety requirements. Insured with Amlin UK.

Us - Both Age over 65. Not an expat, rather a long-term visitor so don't have/want Portuguese Residencia. But do have a fiscal numbers.

Post Brexit want to continue in the same way.

Could getting a 6-month Portuguese visa help my situation?

Can I register in Portugal without getting Portuguese residencia?

Any thoughts?

Then those with the knowledge or thought could offer (or if sensitive PM/email)) their advice.

I think the Expatica site carries all the official information. However, it's clear that Portugal is very relaxed about pensioners living there.
For EU pensioners, formally, living more than 183 days per fiscal year in Portugal, there is a tax advantage of 10 years no income tax, so maybe registering as resident could have tax advantages. The UK HMRC will want confirmation of the change of residence from the Portuguese but will let go, except for UK rental income that will continue to be taxed in the UK.
Health insurance can be covered by the NHS via the S1 form, I gather. Watch out for death duties though, there is usually no double tax agreement.
For post Brexit, we don't know what will be negotiated, either for those Brits already registered as resident in the EU or those who are not. I would imagine the worst case would be the situation faced by non-EU citizens wanting to stay in the EU. Again the Expatica site has lots of information for non-EU immigrants.
I suspect Nortada may be well advised to get registered as resident in Portugal, because those registered before Brexit (or maybe even before the end of the transition phase) will have more rights than those Brits who try to register afterwards.
To register for residence, an actual address has to be used. In Belgium, the police come round to that address to check that one actually lives there. In Germany, they either want the property title, or a letter of confirmation from the land-lord. In Portugal, they may accept the marina address, or a friend's address, but maybe not.

I would like to know about the Portuguese fiscal numbers, how are they obtained?

 

[nortada]

Or perhaps horror of horrors an ID card. Sorry about the fred drift but I can't help myself.

Never had any problem with ID cards carried one for nearly 40 years but wasn’t too happy with the Blair/Blunkett plan to charge me £50 for the privilege!

 

[nortada]

Re: Back to Liveaboard

I think the Expatica site carries all the official information. However, it's clear that Portugal is very relaxed about pensioners living there.
For EU pensioners, formally, living more than 183 days per fiscal year in Portugal, there is a tax advantage of 10 years no income tax, so maybe registering as resident could have tax advantages. The UK HMRC will want confirmation of the change of residence from the Portuguese but will let go, except for UK rental income that will continue to be taxed in the UK.
Health insurance can be covered by the NHS via the S1 form, I gather. Watch out for death duties though, there is usually no double tax agreement.
For post Brexit, we don't know what will be negotiated, either for those Brits already registered as resident in the EU or those who are not. I would imagine the worst case would be the situation faced by non-EU citizens wanting to stay in the EU. Again the Expatica site has lots of information for non-EU immigrants.
I suspect Nortada may be well advised to get registered as resident in Portugal, because those registered before Brexit (or maybe even before the end of the transition phase) will have more rights than those Brits who try to register afterwards.
To register for residence, an actual address has to be used. In Belgium, the police come round to that address to check that one actually lives there. In Germany, they either want the property title, or a letter of confirmation from the land-lord. In Portugal, they may accept the marina address, or a friend's address, but maybe not.

I would like to know about the Portuguese fiscal numbers, how are they obtained?

Thanks for that.

When back in Lagos in October I hope to get all interested parties together and pool all of our knowledge.

Getting a fiscal number. Nothing easier, just pick up at the local financia (tax) office, fill in a form or 2 (well it is Portugal) pay a small fee (€4 when we got them) and they will give a temporary paper form. In our case, the permanent green credit card version was mailed to Marina de Lagos about 3 weeks later. When registering, they were not interested in a permanent address and were more than happy we were visiting Brits on a boat.

Oh yes they are valid for life.

 

[Graham376]

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....For EU pensioners, formally, living more than 183 days per fiscal year in Portugal, there is a tax advantage of 10 years no income tax, so maybe registering as resident could have tax advantages. The UK HMRC will want confirmation of the change of residence from the Portuguese but will let go, except for UK rental income that will continue to be taxed in the UK.
Health insurance can be covered by the NHS via the S1 form, I gather. Watch out for death duties though, there is usually no double tax agreement.
For post Brexit, we don't know what will be negotiated, either for those Brits already registered as resident in the EU or those who are not. I would imagine the worst case would be the situation faced by non-EU citizens wanting to stay in the EU. Again the Expatica site has lots of information for non-EU immigrants.
I suspect Nortada may be well advised to get registered as resident in Portugal, because those registered before Brexit (or maybe even before the end of the transition phase) will have more rights than those Brits who try to register afterwards.
To register for residence, an actual address has to be used.

I would like to know about the Portuguese fiscal numbers, how are they obtained?

For pensioners who have sold up and moved, there may well be an advantage in getting into the Portuguese tax system and out of UK but for those of us who still have UK property (not rented out) it can be a disadvantage so we just stick with UK tax as if we're there all year.

I agree with you that those who can prove they spend >183 days in Portugal and can provide an address (could live with friends ) should consider Residence. Having had it for a few years, I've found no disadvantages and UK authorities don't know I have it.

To obtain Fiscal Number, just visit the "Finances" and ask for one, simple form filling with no ties to anything else. They will want an address and many have used Bruce's yard postal address without problems.

 

[nortada]

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For pensioners who have sold up and moved, there may well be an advantage in getting into the Portuguese tax system and out of UK but for those of us who still have UK property (not rented out) it can be a disadvantage so we just stick with UK tax as if we're there all year.

I agree with you that those who can prove they spend >183 days in Portugal and can provide an address (could live with friends ) should consider Residence. Having had it for a few years, I've found no disadvantages and UK authorities don't know I have it.

To obtain Fiscal Number, just visit the "Finances" and ask for one, simple form filling with no ties to anything else. They will want an address and many have used Bruce's yard postal address without problems.

Interesting, I thought the Portuguese authorities advise HMRC when you get Portuguese Residencia?

So to be absolutely clear, you can get Portuguese residencia but nothing else changes and you continue to pay all UK taxes and keep the boat on the SSR etc, etc, etc.

One thing, with their open boarders, how can Portugal confirm you minimum 183 residing in Portugal or is like many other things Portugese it is just nodded through?

If necessaty, we could go back to Portugal before 23 Sep and legitimately meet the 183 day requirement for 2018.

Graham, do you think your current situation could survive Brexit?

For us, and many other liveaboards in similar situations, this could be the way ahead.

My other thought is to head down the visa path but this could run foul of the Schengen rules for non-EU visitors

 

[sailaboutvic]

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Personally I think we all trying to get answers to question that no one knows the answer yet and all that's happening is some taken wild guess at the out come .
Looking at the worst that can happen .

For then who happy to park there boat in one country and stay in just that country seems like some kind of residents may be the answer ,

for tho who are only out for part of the summer shouldn't have a problem too to meet the 183 day rule .

For them like myself who are cruisers and not just liveaboard , it's normal for us to visit at less three different countries each year , this year we on our fourth so far I think they could have a problem and finding a way around may not be as easy with so many countries now part of the EU .
There only a very few where they can pop into while waiting for their next time they can enter an EU country .

The only country I can think of where staying longer then Aloud may be Greece ,
its about the only country that from any one part to another part the same rules can be over looked by the official, the country is so big and wide with so many islands ,
which most don't want to abide by the same rules as Athens and only interested is keeping the money flowing into their own pocket .
It also the only country that if you really want to if pass experience is anything to go by you could keep your head down and wouldn't get involved if any officially.

 

[Garold]

Re: Back to Liveaboard

I agree Vic. It’s all a guessing game at the minute.

There may be workarounds for say Nortada who is in one country, and there may be solutions for adventurous full time cruisers like you who may dodge between EU and non EU countries.

But for us it’s a bit more tricky if the freedom of movement ends. We are on board for 6-8 months per year and at the moment we would prefer to stay in Greece for about a year.

I think that Jordan may have the same problem of wishing to stay >90 days in EU countries though not all on a boat. I’m sure there are others.

Sadly the reason we have to talk about this now is because it’s only 7 months away and the future is not clear. However, maybe some of us can strategise and put a few things in place to diminish the risk. For some people the final answer may be a boat advert.

Garold

 

[Tony Cross]

Re: Back to Liveaboard

Incidentally, I assume everyone interested has seen and signed this EU initiative?

https://eci.ec.europa.eu/002/public/#/initiative

For more information also see...

http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-18-4566_en.htm
http://ec.europa.eu/citizens-initiative/public/initiatives/ongoing/details/2018/000003
https://www.eucitizen2017.org/

 

[Fr J Hackett]

Re: Back to Liveaboard

To have a guess at answering the question for the liveabords and long term cruisers. The simple solution for the EU would be formal clearance and exit with passport stamped to indicate dates of entry and leaving.

 

[nortada]

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I agree Vic. It’s all a guessing game at the minute.

There may be workarounds for say Nortada who is in one country, and there may be solutions for adventurous full time cruisers like you who may dodge between EU and non EU countries.

But for us it’s a bit more tricky if the freedom of movement ends. We are on board for 6-8 months per year and at the moment we would prefer to stay in Greece for about a year.

I think that Jordan may have the same problem of wishing to stay >90 days in EU countries though not all on a boat. I’m sure there are others.

Sadly the reason we have to talk about this now is because it’s only 7 months away and the future is not clear. However, maybe some of us can strategies and put a few things in place to diminish the risk. For some people the final answer may be a boat advert.

Garold

Thank you Garold you encapsulate the fundamental problem.

The majority of contributors on this thread have to start thinking about where to winter and that leads on to what we are going to do next year.

Unfortunately these decisions cannot be made at the eleventh hour and as there are no facts we are left with best guesses. What further complicates the situation is that attitudes in the different EU countries vary widely and they then apply the rules as they see fit or don't.
Not very British.

It is my belief that attitudes at the coal face will change little and Brussels is very unlikely to be up to speed on the liveaboard issues on day one so initially, it will all meander on much as before for months if not years. :encouragement:

For many liveaboards the fundamental question is, do I continue to run along 'under the radar' or do I put my hand up, formally declare my presence and try to sort it out. Like Pandora's Box. there is no way back.

I suppose one solution is to encourage somebody else to volunteer their presence and see what happens.:encouragement.

Garold, as we both know, rather than me, this thread is your initiative so many thanks for firing all off.

 

[Crisby]

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Getting passports stamped for formal clearance will surely be a requirement if we are subject to the 90 day rule, that is something I personally do not want to see, unless extensions are available.

I know it’s all a guess at the moment but the longer it goes on and the closer we get to our ‘go date’ the less confident I become.

Chris

 

[nortada]

Re: Back to Liveaboard

Getting passports stamped for formal clearance will surely be a requirement if we are subject to the 90 day rule, that is something I personally do not want to see, unless extensions are available.

I know it’s all a guess at the moment but the longer it goes on and the closer we get to our ‘go date’ the less confident I become.

Chris

Whatever Brussels may say, I think it will be down to the country in question.

 

[sailaboutvic]

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@ Nortada
"It is my belief that attitudes at the coal face will change little and Brussels is very unlikely to be up to speed on the liveaboard issues on day one so initially, it will all meander on much as before for months if not years."

I think this is a real possibility.
especially some where like Greece so to Garold and Chisby I wouldn't lose any sleep over it right now . ,
some of us are old enough to remember the days before EU went leaving the UK , we posted the custom papers before we left ,
although not liveaboard in them days we did sail to all the northern Europe country and I trying to think back a time when I got my passport stamp or was checked, on how long we was in that country ,
marinas took our details but that was it .
Nortada , your in the staying in one country camp , I think if I was you I be looking at getting some kind of resident in that country .
unless we being fed another loads of lies by them in power , by what I been reading then with resident ant going to have a problem

 

[Graham376]

Re: Back to Liveaboard

Interesting, I thought the Portuguese authorities advise HMRC when you get Portuguese Residencia?

So to be absolutely clear, you can get Portuguese residencia but nothing else changes and you continue to pay all UK taxes and keep the boat on the SSR etc, etc, etc.

One thing, with their open boarders, how can Portugal confirm you minimum 183 residing in Portugal or is like many other things Portugese it is just nodded through?

If necessaty, we could go back to Portugal before 23 Sep and legitimately meet the 183 day requirement for 2018.

Graham, do you think your current situation could survive Brexit?

For us, and many other liveaboards in similar situations, this could be the way ahead.

My other thought is to head down the visa path but this could run foul of the Schengen rules for non-EU visitors

No, the Portuguese don't talk to HMRC if you only apply for residence but may do so if you get into the tax system here. May contact DVLA if you swap driving license but I haven't done that.

Having residence has not had any adverse effect on anything. We still live in UK part of the year, pay taxes, boat on SSR etc. No earnings in Portugal, only current account at bank so no need for tax returns.

No check on time spent here when applying for residence but, having an address gives the impression that one is actually resident.

Whether this arrangement will stand the test of time and trouble ahead, I have no idea. If flying direct to Portugal with residence (or any other country where residence held) then passport may be stamped for unlimited stay but, if driving down via France as port of entry for instance, then will the 90 day rule apply ???? Lots of motor home owners in the same situation as us.

My own thoughts are that having official residence in an EU state and basing the boat there may be better than just being a nomad.