Trailer Sailors!

[Zagato]

Thanks for the suggestion Lakesailor but not keen!

It would be easier if looks of my toys were not so important but I do get a lot of pleasure from beautiful lines and design I am getting drawn into a Drascombe Drifter, there were two for sale at 8-9K, look near perfect for my needs and traditional characteristics, I could admire it from my kitchen window

Cannot find a pic of the earlier Drifter but this is a later version...

 

[Lakesailor]

I know what you mean about the looks. However, you can't see what it looks like when you are sailing

 

[aquaplane]

I have had 2 boats where I have had to get the mast up and down, both with a single bolt through the mast foot.
The First 18 I could easily do it on my own with nothing more than a crutch to lower it into.
The 20'er I have a pole from the base of the mast to the end of the forestay and a rope from there down to the bow roller and back to a winch. I have done that single handed too but it's easier with someone tailing the winch as I lift the mast.
So it's not too difficult, but it's easier with a "system" once you get over 20'. I wouldn't go above a 24' boat though.
You are talking about having a cabin and trailing to different areas, I'm thinking you want a bigger boat than the one where you can throw the mast up and down in 5 minutes.
The Winkle Brig is little but it looks like what you are looking at.

 

[SHUG]

..... not bad for a 22' boat with cabin that will shrug off a force 8......

In your dreams!!! Clearly you have never been in an open sea Force8.

 

[Searush]

I know what you mean about the looks. However, you can't see what it looks like when you are sailing

Whilst I appreciate the saying, when you know your boat looks good, you sit proud in the cockpit & enjoy people looking at you. Otherwise you slouch, hidden in a corner hoping no-one recognises you. It's a world apart & will affect your enjoyment of sailing her.

That is unless you really can carry off the "I don't give a damn what you think, I'm happy" mindset. It can be done, but takes a lot of effort to cultivate if it doesn't come naturally.

 

[Penton Hooker]

In your dreams!!! Clearly you have never been in an open sea Force8.

Whether Zagato has or not I don't know, but I have and I really don't see why one of the bigger Drascombes should not be able to ride it out.

Click on:
http://www.drascombe.nl/fotos15.htm
Not me, but it looks pretty rough!

 

[Kelpie]

Whether Zagato has or not I don't know, but I have and I really don't see why one of the bigger Drascombes should not be able to ride it out.

Click on:
http://www.drascombe.nl/fotos15.htm
Not me, but it looks pretty rough!

Am I right in thinking an open Drascombe will swamp unrecoverably if rolled? This is what happened to Webb Chiles mid-ocean (an amazing story). I would have thought a Drascombe would be of the size where F8 poses quite a threat from being rolled if caught beam-on. Maybe the Coaster is a better bet?

 

[Penton Hooker]

No way can I relate to Webb Chiles exploits! I suspect that most open boats, if rolled in those circumstances, would be in an unenviable state.

As for being unrecoverable, I suspect that that would also depend on other damage sustained and subsequent sea-state. I do know from experience that an older style Longboat will sail when swamped, but does require a flat sea to be able to bail successfully. However, if a Drascombe was to float much higher then perhaps the tendency to turn turtle would be greater.

All in all, the Drascombe, as an open boat is probably more sea-kindly than any other production boat. It may not be high tec, may not make an ex dinghy racer feel at home, but it is a darn good sea boat and can probably take more punishment than most crews can.

Having a lid on it, similar I suppose to rowing boats designed for ocean crossings, has to increase its survival chances.

 

[northwind]

Thanks for the suggestion Lakesailor but not keen!

It would be easier if looks of my toys were not so important but I do get a lot of pleasure from beautiful lines and design I am getting drawn into a Drascombe Drifter, there were two for sale at 8-9K, look near perfect for my needs and traditional characteristics, I could admire it from my kitchen window

Cannot find a pic of the earlier Drifter but this is a later version...

The earlier Drifter is better classed as a "Trailable" boat rather than a Trailer Sailer. Similar to a Shrimper, as they draw quite a lot and are heavy.

 

[northwind]

Such as...?

Hawk 20, BayRaider 20, BayRaider Experdition.

 

[Penton Hooker]

Hawk 20, BayRaider 20, BayRaider Experdition.

Better, really? I'm not convinced.

Better sailers, maybe. Better sea-boats, I doubt it. More modern, undoubtedly. Beautifully built, yes, but to my eyes the appearance is not nearly so 'right' as that of a Lugger or Longboat. The Drascombe concept has remained true to its original concepts and values. Why fix something that doesn't need fixing?

At the end of the day, they are different. As for being better, better at what?

 

[Lakesailor]

The Drascombe concept has remained true to its original concepts and values. Why fix something that doesn't need fixing?

Morgan. Has it's fans. Most people wouldn't want one as a gift.
(The supercar version may be more complete, but ????)

 

[northwind]

If you'll excuse me contradicting you then I will!

The rig is floppy, if you don't tighten it! Okay, so it will never be bar taut, but a Drascombe (generically speaking) is a fine cruising dinghy with a well proven pedigree. I'll agree that a loose footed main is a dog when running but to windward it's no problem. But then I sail both the rivers and the sea, I've fitted a boom and she's a joy to sail, can even plane in a good wind! A dreary dog? No, no way.

Feel free to contradic me, I'm glad you like your boat, however drascombes seem to be viewed through rose tinted specs, i.e. its a classic and therefore its perfect.

The floppy rig; I tried every trick in the book, including adding blocks to the shrouds, but its simply not designed to take tension, and for pottering around this is fine, however as you have pointed out, you have added a boom to solve one of the problems with the original design. The pointing ability is shocking, probably nearer to 100-110 degrees, which makes progress slow.

The lack of aerofoil shaping on the rudder and centreboard means the helm is unresponsive, the engine is aft of the rudder making it a pain to access and steerage is poor. And the rudder arrangement is positively dangerous. My wife could not ship the thing, and even with the block of wood under the stock when its lifted, you then have to tie the tiller to the mizzen mast to stop it from falling down. Wrestling with this with children in a boat is a nightmare.

I'm glad you like it, I'm not a racer either, as I have said previously they are fine pottering boats, if you accept their design idiosyncrasies, most drascombe owners will come up with a long list of the "modifications" they have made to their boats, most of which are either to try and improve performance, such as adding a boom, or make rigging easier. The design is therefore poor, as there are not many other types of boat that people put as much effort into "improving" to make the thing sail better.

Know which boat I'd rather be bobbing about in the North Sea when there is a gale blowing!

As happy as you may be in a gale, bear in mind if you ever did get swamped you'd be in real trouble, as there is no real built in bouyancy. (I had an RCD one, and they had filled every possible space with closed cell foam, so the boat was then heavy, and I had nowhere to store anything! ).

As for the rudder, just takes some getting used to but it is a logical design that works.

Its not a logical design, its a simplistic answer to a problem, i..e I designed a boat and I want the rudder here, how do I make it work. A logical design is a light pivoting blade, not 20kgs of steel, with a flat blade. It was designed this way as it was the only way of making it work, i.e. using the weight of the rudder to make it hang down. Having to use an oar when you have wrestled to ship the thing is not logical, its a compromise to overcome a poor piece of design!
[/QUOTE]

Sailing a Drascombe is more akin to sailing a similar sized keel boat but just because you failed to master it is no reason to slate what is an all time, thoroughly well proven classic.

Sailing a Drascombe is NOTHING like sailing a similar sized keel boat. I mastered mine fine thanks, but it was the most disappointing boat I have ever sailed.

Everyone who owns, (as the owner of any class of boat will tend to do), will get defensive of their boat, and I'm glad you like it, however the biggest shame is that the Drascombe range have never been evolved, i.e. in 30 years, they've done nothing to evolve the design, the hull shape is good, the size is good, but the rig and the rudder are awful.

I'm sure the number of new boats will continue to dwindle, and the builders will continue to blame each other for the loss of sales, rather than thinking how they could improve and evolve their product. There are probably enough around secondhand, to service the niche market they serve and being made of GRP means that boats now survive abuse and being abandoned, and provide decades of good service.

Like I say, I'm glad you like yours, however its not fair to say they are "perfect" Just as no boat is "perfect" But its fun to debate.

 

[Kelpie]

Life would be dull if we all liked the same boat!

About the rudder- having never sailed a Drascombe, I was under the impression that the rudder could sping through 360 degrees, making it uniquely robust especially when there is a risk of making sternway (e.g. lying to a sea anchor with the mizzen set). Presumably a pivoting rudder could not do this?

 

[Zagato]

In your dreams!!! Clearly you have never been in an open sea Force8.

I have much nicer things to dream about

Owners tend to pack their Luggers, Longboats and Cruisers with buoyancy whilst the Coaster is a redesigned Cruiser with built in buoyancy (at the expense of cockpit space! ) it will apparently pop back up if knocked flat and this is the model most move up to eventually.

The example I gave of a Coaster coping with the Force 8 (perhaps I should have been more specific and "shrug off" was perhaps a tad positive in description! ) came from an experienced sailer who described to me how he got caught in a Force 8 in the Solent and feeling relieved to get into Chi Harbour found conditions worse than outside, the tide playing it's part I suppose but he got home OK!

I didn't find the rudder a problem as I would always come in under the engine having already pulled it out. I am happy to come in under sail with a dinghy but hadn't got to that level with the Longboat!

 

[Penton Hooker]

Northwind wrote re Drascombes:
Sailing a Drascombe is NOTHING like sailing a similar sized keel boat.
We shall have to differ on that but my lifelong pedigree is keel-boats and I don't have a problem sailing a Drascombe. For example, like a keel-boat I have to sail it about, unlike a dinghy that I can roll tack. It does appear that dissenting voices tend to come from racing dinghy sailors.

Re floppy rigs, not a problem. My daughter has a 103 year old Broads racing cruiser, you should see how much that flops! Anyway, back to Drascombes, the rig was never designed to be bar taut, but it is a darn sight easier to tension as well as being able to lower the mast at bridges by having a purchase above the furling jib.

Re the personalisation of Drascombes, hardly a weakness, the ability to adapt to local conditions is one of the absolute joys of the boats.

 

[William_H]

Safety

I could never be happy owning a boat that did not have a self draining cockpit. ie modern cabin that can be shut and footwell that is above water level. I have partly filled the foot well (cockpit) of my TS many times with mast near the water in a knockdown and within seconds all is forgotten as the water quickly drains.
I would insist on self righting and self draining. No matter how good looking. olewill

 

[ProDave]

I could never be happy owning a boat that did not have a self draining cockpit. ie modern cabin that can be shut and footwell that is above water level. I have partly filled the foot well (cockpit) of my TS many times with mast near the water in a knockdown and within seconds all is forgotten as the water quickly drains.
I would insist on self righting and self draining. No matter how good looking. olewill

+1

Capsizing, getting wet, and bailing out are not something I expect to do when sailing.

 

[craic]

...The Drascombe concept has remained true to its original concepts and values. Why fix something that doesn't need fixing?

With Drascombes the question should be the other way round: Why NOT fix something that DOES need fixing? : The rudder being in danger of bending in shallow waters, the majestic leeway when close winded (i.e. the windward capability), the tacking itself, the swamping, the bailing, the capsizing, and the righting from capsizing. -The rest is OK IMHO, BTW.

... At the end of the day, they are different. As for being better, better at what?

For me to call a boat 'better' it must of course be better in every vital detail at the same time: At sailing, at rowing, at motoring, at launching and recovery, at comfort, stowage capacity, seaworthyness and recoverability from mishaps. And at being better usable in a wider scope of conditions, calm, storm, shallows and high seas. If you take the Drascombe Longboat as benchmark, yes, there are better boats today, even in the strict criteria framework set out above. Clever boat design has moved well forward since the days of John Watkinson.

Re Trailer Sailers in general, there is one detail which is becoming ever more important, and rapidly more so: The trailering weight. If you look just a little ahead you can already see that the general trend goes to much lighter weight cars in the future. Meaning, heavier trailer sailers will lose marketshare due to fewer cars being able to tow them. It's a new design and building challenge to offer trailer sailers with the same seaworthyness as before, but at a much reduced trailering weight vs. today. Can be done, with waterballast.

 

[Penton Hooker]

With Drascombes the question should be the other way round: Why NOT fix something that DOES need fixing? : The rudder being in danger of bending in shallow waters, the majestic leeway when close winded (i.e. the windward capability), the tacking itself, the swamping, the bailing, the capsizing, and the righting from capsizing. -The rest is OK IMHO, BTW.

Any reasonably competent and sensible sailor can easily deal with the rudder arrangement. The set-up allows for the use of an outboard motor set in a central well and also avoids the difficulty and safety issues of unshipping a stern hung rudder. The Lugger/Longboat design also allows the boat to be beached stern to so that people on board can step ashore 'Dry shod'. There always has been a simple solution for rudderless steering, the ability for the rudder to be raised and steerage maintained in shallow waters by the provision of a sculling rowlock positioned on the transom. The only requirement is to think ahead about where you are sailing, it's no different for those of us who sail keel boats. The risk of bending the rudder stock is surely no greater than the risks associated with a transom hung rudder.

'Tis only a poor sailor that can't get a Drascombe to work to windward or go about successfully. I was recently out in a blow when a more modern, hi-tec day-sailor from a competitor was out. The wind was gusting well above a force six, we continued to go to windward, we were able to tack. The other boat dropped its sail and headed for home under engine. I don't think the self tacking jib that the other boat carried was at all helpful.

As for capsizing and swamping, I suppose a self draining cockpit could be incorporated but I rather suspect that that would mean a shallower cockpit. Not keen on that idea. As with any cruising boat the idea is not to capsize!
As for water ballast, negative buoyancy in other words, I can see some benefits but as yet, I remain unconvinced.

Each to their own but if I were in the market for a trailer sailor I would look very carefully at Drascombes/Devons. There are always folk who insist on knocking them, often to promote their own choice or even their own product, but the fact is that they are darned good boats, very satisfying to own and sail.