Trailer Sailors!

[Kelpie]

Out of interest, and I apologise if I'm highjacking the thread, but what might be the average day sailing to extended cruise ratio for all you with 'proper' yachts?

We are lucky to have a yacht as well as a Wayfarer, and the yacht just never gets used for day-sailing. Either it goes out for a week's cruise, or it stays on the mooring.

And if I could jump on the pedantry bandwagon: trailer sailors are what you call people who sail on trailer sailers

 

[tigr]

mast raising on an 18 footer

We have an 18ft Bradwell, it has a tabernacle which makes everything easy. During transport the mast overhangs both ends a bit, I tie it to the pulpit and it goes over the roof of the Discovery3 so is quite high up. I also tie it to the tabernacle and then to a wood frame tied to the corner of the pushpit. I move the wood from to the centre, and carry the mast so the base fits onto the tabernacle and rests on the wood frame. I push the mast down and put in a bolt to the top of the tabernacle the tie a rope to the forestay (which has the furling reefing on it) then I lead the rope back to the cockpit and wrap round a foresail winch. I have not needed to but could run it through the reefing pulley. I then push the mast up and take the strain by pulling the rope which is controlled by the winch at some stage I go onto the cabin roof and keep pulling on the rope round the which till it all goes up, then with one hand on the rope I slot in the lower pin into the tabernacle and attach the forestay, not always in that order. I used to tie off the rope by now do not bother, I also used to attach the rearmost shrouds but may do if I think it is going to be windy but normally I am confident in the tabernacle taking all the support.
Everything seems under control due to the tabernacle and rope to winch. I have sometimes catch something on the way up but just take a turn off the winch and let it slip back letting down the mast. The same as I do when I do the reverse and take the mast down to go home.
This is done in a few minutes, it takes longer to undo all my over-lashing everything as I am paranoid something will come loose on the motorway!
Just a matter of putting the pins in the shrouds and slotting the boom in although I am thinking of leaving it on in the future. For the motorway I leave rudder and outboard in the cabin and hook these on before I reverse down the slipway.
Last time I did this in a real downpour and left the hatch slid forward so everything got soaked, this meant wife and children slept in a hotel and I had a cold night on board with the dog.

I just need to make the trailer better so the boat actually rolls off.

 

[electrosys]

Without doubt the Drascombes (and Original Devon's etc) are ideal for trailer sailing an essentially 'open' boat. But the real reason behind their premium prices lies - as with De Beers and the diamond market - in the manufacturing licence strategy that the Watkinson estate has adopted. A simple case of demand exceeding supply in the secondhand market.

I don't think the Devon range has anything to do with the Watkinson estate. Read their website for the story. They were quite happy to pay for the name, but were shown the door.

Well, I'll admit that I didn't spell it out - but what I was really referring to was the Watkinson's refusal to release any more plans for one-off construction, amateur or professional, thus restricting the supply of boats onto the market, and thus artificially inflating the prices of both new and secondhand boats in the process.
Exactly the same financial dynamics apply to the Devon range, although as you rightly point out, they were not in any way responsible for the current state of affairs.

One consequence of this is, as the OP has already discovered, that some sellers are demanding unrealistically high prices for boats in very poor condition, purely on the strength of their name-tag.

 

[ProDave]

Two comments from the above post. (post #22)

I leave my shrouds and backstay connected at all times. Why would I want to undo them? When I drop the mast, they go slack, and I just coil them up and secure them. I then know they are ready to raise the mast, already in the right place and the right length to stop it and secure it when it goes up.

Last sentence "just need to make the trailer better" is about the most important thing. A lot of the difficulty, or ease of launch, and in particular recovery, is down to how good the trailer is, how many rollers, in the right place for that particular boat, etc etc.

 

[Penton Hooker]

The one thing you should bear in mind is that drascombes sail like a dog.

The rig is floppy, and combined with a loose footed main mean that beating to windward is very frustrating exercise.

I had a Devon lugger for a season, while it was fun, coming from sailing dinghies the rig was very frustrating.

The rudder arrangement is another pain in the backside, dropping a heavy arrangement of steel plate and pipe through the slot in the deck, and worse trying to ship the thing when approaching a beach is fraught with hassle.

The boat I had was a later one, which had had its "internal" tanks filled with expanding foam to meet the RCD standards, so it was heavy, earlier ones, if flooded barely float.

I am amazed that people place so much affection for what is a very old flawed design. There are much better day boats than the drascombe!

If you'll excuse me contradicting you then I will!

The rig is floppy, if you don't tighten it! Okay, so it will never be bar taut, but a Drascombe (generically speaking) is a fine cruising dinghy with a well proven pedigree. I'll agree that a loose footed main is a dog when running but to windward it's no problem. But then I sail both the rivers and the sea, I've fitted a boom and she's a joy to sail, can even plane in a good wind! A dreary dog? No, no way.

Flawed design, now that is rubbish, it really is. I have a Longboat, a sea kindly and safe boat that can sail well, a design that has stood the test of time. I previously owned and sailed a Contender, several Wayfarers and a Fireball. Know which boat I'd rather be bobbing about in the North Sea when there is a gale blowing!

As for the rudder, just takes some getting used to but it is a logical design that works.

Sailing a Drascombe is more akin to sailing a similar sized keel boat but just because you failed to master it is no reason to slate what is an all time, thoroughly well proven classic.

I've had my Drascombe for over thirty years now, other boats have come and gone. The racing fad has long since burnt out!

 

[Zagato]

The one thing you should bear in mind is that drascombes sail like a dog.

The rig is floppy, and combined with a loose footed main mean that beating to windward is very frustrating exercise.

I had a Devon lugger for a season, while it was fun, coming from sailing dinghies the rig was very frustrating.

The rudder arrangement is another pain in the backside, dropping a heavy arrangement of steel plate and pipe through the slot in the deck, and worse trying to ship the thing when approaching a beach is fraught with hassle.

The boat I had was a later one, which had had its "internal" tanks filled with expanding foam to meet the RCD standards, so it was heavy, earlier ones, if flooded barely float.

I am amazed that people place so much affection for what is a very old flawed design. There are much better day boats than the drascombe!

Shame you couldn't get the hang of the rig in a season! Luckily others have enjoyed the classic rig with over 5000 built! The Coaster & Cruiser do come with a boom and are incredibly light at 500KG, not bad for a 22' boat with cabin that will shrug off a force 8. It's the reason so many have been trusted for challenging crossings and circumnavigations. The open Luggers reputation precedes it of course and the Long Boat was designed and sold to fulfill demand as a training boat, maybe you should have gone in one first to gain the experience for the rig! I bought the 22' Longboat straight from a dinghy and found it to be a very response, quick boat and easy for a single hander also. They will never be a Dart or similar but they are not designed for that type of sailing, they are simply a very stable versatile well thought out boat.

 

[Zagato]

The Hunter Liberty, or in this case, it's Minstrel sibling? Meant to be good TSs
Sorry Zag if this takes te thread back to 'which boat...' territory.

Thanks Gem, there is one for sale at the moment, I'm pretty sure it will be a Drascombe once a decent one eventually comes up :but it's really interesting researching all these other boats.

A 24' Cornish Crabber would be my ideal looking boat but ouch they are not cheap. I would stretch up to 10K now I have sold my old SAAB 2 Stroke but I couldn't justify spending more on a boat - you get real value for money with a Folksong eh mate

 

[DownWest]

An alternative for those who doubt the Drascombes sailing abilities could be Oughtred's Caladonia Yawl. And you can buy plans unlike the Drascombes/Devons. Having one built might be over budget though.

Always liked the Liberty and must be quick to rig. Seem to go for £6k

 

[Lakesailor]

I can see Weight-Creep on this thread.
I thought ist was about a daysailer that you can easily trail about and launch/recover.

Hunter Minstrel, Cornish Crabber 24'?

 

[DownWest]

I can see Weight-Creep on this thread.
I thought ist was about a daysailer that you can easily trail about and launch/recover.

Hunter Minstrel, Cornish Crabber 24'?

Hence my post about the CY. A lugger, so unstayed masts just plug in. At 19ft6" but unballasted, not too big to trail and launch. Good seaboats by several accts. The Liberty also has unstayed masts, so gets some points for ease of rig.

I agree about Crabber 24s, way too big. I wonder if the Seal 22 could be fixed to be an easy launch and rig. Sometimes discribed as a dinghy man's next step to cruising. Ticks quite a few boxes
DW

My gunter rigged Oughtred 15fter still only takes about 15min to launch, and that is with a stayed mast that steps on the keel. Use the jib halyard to hoist the mast after finding the step, mainsail and gaff/yard/stick all left attached. But unlike my mate's gaffer (above) not something I would try afloat.
DW

 

[BAtoo]

I had a Drascombe Longboat Cruiser & mast raising was a single-handed event. Good for day sailing, but they are not great sailers.......

The mast on a 22ft sloop is a very different thing - my son's Pandora is definitely a 2-man job to raise the mast - & to lower it...

 

[VicS]

Raising and lowering mast on my 19ft Sea Wych is not something I undertake lightly.

I use an A frame and the main sheet. I don't do it on a windy day,. I would not fancy trying it afloat.
I lower it on my own but I try to have someone handy, even if not actively assisting, when raising it.

In reality since the boat yard makes no extra charge I usually get them to do it with me assisting.

 

[ProDave]

I normally raise my mast on the trailer before launching on the slipway. If your trailer has a winch, and your boat has a bow roller, then the trailers winch fed over the bow roller pulls the mast up using the forestay. You have to first lift it up to nearly 45 degrees before winding on the winch.

But now I have decided to use the clubs crane out rather than recover to the trailer (harder than launching) I lower the mast in the harbour before crane out. Again that's quite easy for two, again using the forstay or jib halyard it can be lowered by one person up on the harbour wall, with the second person on the boat guiding it ready to place the mast in the crutch.

 

[JimC]

There are much better day boats than the drascombe!

Such as...?

 

[oldharry]

Such as...?

Hawk 20, Spitfire (18ft), Salcombe Yawl 18ft..... to name but a few. Drascombes are nice trad boats, but heavy and slow. They have a specialist niche in the market but are by no means the overall 'best', though well buolt and very solid.

There are quite a few mini cruisers on the second hand market ideal for trailer sailing, starting with Percy Blandfords old 60s designed 17ft Lysander, which enjoyed a production run in a GRP version. Then there are the 18ft Tucker designs that transferred to GRP build, like the Silhouette and the Caprice, and the slightly bigger Coribbee. He also designed the lift keel Matilda, which, drawing only 12 inches plate up made an ideal trailer sailer. Then there are the smaller Rydgeway boats, the Pirate and the Prelude, alongside several 20 plus footers all capable of being towed by the average family car.

But the work required to launch and set up a trailer sailor increases disproportianately as the length and weight goes up. Setting up the average 18 - 20 footer is relatively easy, compared to say a 22 footer with its longer heavier spar and greater weight.

My first boat - a plywood Lysander, could be up and sailing within half an hour of arriving at the slip. My last trailer sailor, a Matilda, lived on a mooring and only came out for towing away for a holiday, and winter lay-up. I had her set up so that she too could be rigged and launched single handed within about 40 minutes. I several times wished I had a 4wd drive to handle her safely on indifferent slipways, though. Weighing at just under a ton on her trailer, she was about the biggest boat I would want to handle on and off a trailer on a slipway without help.

Single bolt mast hinges are a pain for the trailer sailing man. Lose control of the spar in say a gust of wind, they break. Often on an older boat the spar makers no longer have spare castings, and tracking down a suitable replacement can take weeks.... In my view, a proper tabernacle is a must. easily set up, no serious strain on the mast or its fittings if things go awry during raising or lowering = short of dropping the thing altogether - and yes I have done that too! And got away with it, without damage....

The biggest problem for single handed spar handling is ensuring the bottle screws dont capsize - they can be irretrievably bent before you realise anything is wrong! I always carried two or three spares and used at least one each season! Worse still if you are winching the mast up

 

[VicS]

The biggest problem for single handed spar handling is ensuring the bottle screws dont capsize - they can be irretrievably bent before you realise anything is wrong! I always carried two or three spares and used at least one each season! Worse still if you are winching the mast up

Possible useful tip:

I have a number of lengths of thin shockcord which I use to stand the bottle screws up by tying them to the guard rails etc before raising the mast.

 

[TQA]

When I was looking for a trailer sailor back in the late 80s, I was looking around 17-18 feet and always asked people why were they selling. After hearing we are buying a 22 footer. usually a Jaguar several times I decided to buy a Jaguar 22.

Yes it is tough for one person to raise and lower the mast but doable.

Likewise launch and recovery is tough but I was really happy with my decision.

The pluses of more storage, better performance and standing headroom with the pop top up more than outweighed the negatives.

 

[William_H]

Trailer sailiung

Just a few comments from previous posts.
Getting the base of the mast into the mast step is a major part of any mast raising due to the fact that we must move the mast forward to minimise overhang.
My answer is to have a post at the stern rail which supports the mast. This has 2 heights. One low for towing the other quite high for mast raising. (a telescopic pole). First thing on arrival is to raise the mast by lifting it to the top support. (at the transom). The cabin top has bulges which mean the mast can not be fitted into the base when near horizontal. (in the low support). The mast support is (or should be) sufficiently stiff so that with rollers fitted to the support I can slide the mast back with me pushing from near the bottom of the mast so single handedly get mast into base.
I can raise my mast(I think) by simply lifting and pulling on a line to the forestay but for ease and so safety I always use 2 poles to the bottom of the forestay to improve pull angle. So that with a 3 purchase tackle the mast can be raised from low with the aid of a halyard winch. I purpose fitted rings on side decks for spin poles.
Fractional rig boats have sidestays that and chain plate that is aft of abeam the mast. So side support is lost as soon as mast is leaned back coming down. Or no side support until right up. I manage as a habit by simply being on the cabin top supporting the mast sideways. yes sometimes it is a bit iffy. Especially as I always raise mast when the boat is in the water. (no real reason just habit). Now a McGregor 26 (no endorsement from me) has separate sidestays going about 1/3 of the way up the mast which have a chaijn plate on the cabin top exactly at the level and alignment of the mast pivot bolt. This means these small stays will be tightened when mast goes into base and stay tight right through the traverse of the mast. It can not fall sideways.
Other methods I have used are separate ropes to a point about 1 metre above the chain plates to artificially tension the cap shrouds. This goes forward to a pulley each side then back to the cockpit as they must be adjusted as the mast traverses from low to high.

Just keep practicing and mast raising becomes easy. olewill

 

[Zagato]

I can see Weight-Creep on this thread.
I thought ist was about a daysailer that you can easily trail about and launch/recover.

Hunter Minstrel, Cornish Crabber 24'?

Yes your right, and I don't know how much these boats weigh

The beautiful Drascombe Drifter 22 is 1200KG and can be launched with a rough old Jag (! ) This is definitely included in my dream boat list but again well over my budget although significantly cheaper than a Crabber 24!
Interesting pics in this link of the Drifter being launched and mast erected!

http://www.drascombe.org.uk/drascombe drifter 22.htm

I am not worried about towing weight as I just bought a new Defender but have no experience of launching heavier boats than a Drascombe.

There are many other boats out their that have been suggested Dart, Salcombe Yawl etc but what I am looking for now is a more stable family boat, with cabin (OK you were all right! equally happy being motored around estuaries and coping with any unforeseen rough conditions around the Solent.

I haven't seen anything yet that knocks a Coaster off the top spot for my money (but I am still researching some of your suggestions), light at 500KG to launch but very stable, easy to rig and sail - especially like the versatile rig e.g ability to just use the mizzen & jib! Your not sitting right next to the engine, plenty of dry storage etc and I like the traditional characteristics it has. I would have a completely wood boat but am too scared of them and having looked at a wooden Lugger which had been repaired poorly in the past it has put me off so tan sails, wood spars etc will have to fulfill my aesthetic desires on a GRP boat. I just wish the Coaster had a higher freeboard and more attractive cabin (to me!) but that's where an old Drifter might come in......

 

[Lakesailor]

My last but one boat fills most of your criteria. I was out having a sail on her on Saturday.

One I prepared earlier

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