Trailer Sailors!

[Zagato]

I have recently been looking into trailer sailors in the direction of Drascombes Cruiser/Coasters/Drifters.

Doing a search I came across an old SEAL 22 for roughly 3K which is a very pretty little boat or a modern Jeanneau Sun for 9K.

With a gunter rig, such as the Drascombe has, it is easy to raise the mast but how do people get on with the full length standard mast when trailer sailing? Or are these boats really not trailer sailors!

Edit - discounted the Seal/Jeanneau and alike, back to the Drascombe and happy to do so!!

NOW SELLING MY DRASCOMBE DRIFTER FOR A CRABBER24. The sailing success I have had in my Drifter has given me confidence to jump in with both feet for a Crabber. Asking 8K...

 

[doughnut]

I can't comment on either of the 2 boats you mention but I have a Jag 22 and have a system which means (if I had to) I could raise/lower the mast single handed. Not sure exactly, but I would guess the mast is about 25-26 feet long.

I have an A-frame which is very similar to the one described on Bob Conways Catalina 22 mast page. I just use the main sheet and block to control the ascent/descent - if the shrouds get jammed or anything looks out of place I can lock the whole thing in place and sort it out before continuing.

I find the hard part is locating the base of the mast on the hinge on the deck (i.e. manoeuvring the mast when its horizontal). With two people it is awkward but straightforward, but by myself it would take several minutes and I would probably look for a stand like Ken Hastie uses a few feet behind the transom.

Single handed or otherwise, I would be disappointed if it took me longer than 20 minutes to raise/lower the mast and secure it for travel.

Having said all this though, I trailed my boat twice then decided to get a mooring for the year because of the aggravation of setting up/down each time I wanted to sail. In the future I can't see myself trailering for anything less than several days sailing due to the hassle at either end of the trip.

On the mooring I would say I use about 3 hours non-sailing time to get a days sailing (including a 1hr 10 min journey each way). If I were trailing the boat there for the day I'd guess that I would have 5-6 hours non-sailing time which is a big chunk of time out of a single days sailing.

 

[Lakesailor]

If you are intending to trail-sail as a regular thing the 20ft boats are going to be a pain in the arse.
They are much heavier than the 17-18ft boats and the masts are bigger and heavier.
You want a boat with a tabernacle which allows safe and controlled mast raising and lowering. I've had boats with mast derricks and a simple shoe fit mast step. They are awkward and even the best "A" frame arrangements adds to the time you need to rig/de-rig the boat.
Get back to your original idea of a day-sailer and avoid the cruiser-type boat or you'll get fed up of the faff and go off sailing.

 

[Neil]

I takes me 25 mins from arriving at the slip with the trailer, completely unrigged, to be ready to put it in the water, so I have about an hour's overhead for a day's sail, which I find acceptable. Having a gaff rig, the mast is shorter and easy to step single handed, by hand, without any A-frame, or the use of ropes.

It's not a perfect solution; I'd like to be able to stroll down the jetty, step aboard and then sail off. For the price I paid for the boat new, I could have had a proper cruiser (old), with enough left over to sort it. But then 3 or 4 years mooring charges would be the price of the boat......bit of a bummer if you don't actually manage (weather, family, work) to get out on it much...

 

[William_H]

Mast raising

I find mast raising is not really a problem on my 21fter with 27ft fractional mast. The more you do it the easier it becomes. I reckon I have done mine 100 times up and down so used to it. Yes I have done it single handed but 2 is easier.
However I do keep my TS on a mooring. Perhaps more from local set up and convenience. I did trail the boat for 3 years when I first bought it.
I would absolutely recommend a real cruiser TS for shelter and comfort especially in UK compared to the day sailer. (open dinghy)
The disadvantages of TS are the weight and bulk on the road and associated trailer maintenance concerns.
This is obviously directly in proportion to the size. Plus of course the need to operate a large car to tow it.
Here in Oz there is a 28fter marketed as a trailer sailer. (RL28) Or Magnum 850 is a 26fter also TS. Or a Sunmaid 25 with diesel engine!

The work of actually launching and retrieval being more significant to me than mast raising. A power winch could help a lot. Also significant is effort to raise ballasted keel. Look for a boat/ trailer combination with shallow draft, flat bottom and lots of rollers on trailer which enables you to winch the boat on rather than float it on. I once had to winch mine on from dry sand. doable but hard work.
IMHO my type castle 650 is ideal for TS. I know it is not availbale in UK but might give you some ideas on attributes I consider desirable. I have had mine for 32 years. so yes satisfied. olewill

 

[DownWest]

Pedant mode: Drascombes have gunter rig not gaff.

Local mate has a 15ftLOD + sprite gaff cutter. He had some trouble with the mast hinge, so I made him a proper tabernackle. He trails it with the mainsail and jib on the spars and furler (another diy job from a bike hub) and can be sailing in under 10min from arrival, single handed. 5min if 2 handed. Both the forestay and innerstay are on two to one tackles that one hauls on while shouldering the mast, cleat off, job done.
The mast overhangs the transom a bit, but not a problem and legal
http://www.whisstock.com/popup.php?pop_id=home_055

Here she is.

 

[TSB240]

Gin Pole

We have a 24ft trailer sailer.

No tabernacle but single bolted mast foot.

tried using a wooden A frame on 32' tall fractional rig.

Insufficient control in cross winds and requires 2 people

Now use a Gin Pole arrangement (ex windsurfer mast) with clip on temporary shrouds.

We reckon on 3 hours from trailing to sailing.

 

[Zagato]

Thanks for the replies, your points say why Drascombe Coasters and alike are priced at a premium, 22' long so a good length, bounce back up if knocked flat, handy cabin with all you need, tabernacle and simple rigging, and it's only 480KG so easy to launch.

I travelled 55 miles to launch my old Drascombe and it took me 30 mins to get her rigged and in the water, so say an hour and a half a day tops for launching, rigging etc.

It was about the same when I had a boat on the mooring, either putting the tender in, messing about with another engine or having to wait for a costly ferry to get to the boat then having to take the cabin cover off, sail covers off, get the sheets ready, untie tillers, boom, check engine, etc you could easily argue launching something like a Drascombe is a lot easier and quicker.

You can also have the boat in your garden saving hundreds on mooring fees, she will be better looked after and will not deteriorate so quickly as opposed to sitting on a mooring.

You can see why good trailer sailors are say a 5K+ premium over similar non trailer-able boats. As with RIBs which are so popular these days you can launch quickly but also have the advantage of taking your boat easily to different waters, even abroad. I sail from Chichester Harbour but can't wait to take it to my fathers old stamping grounds in Lyme Bay and take him out in Falmouth Estuary. Scotland also has some great waters and you can be there towing in 8 hours. Adds another great dimension to your holidays

There is an interesting fact that Drascombe owners are mainly between the ages of 55 -75 years old, these old boys come out regularly on their own or rallies all over the country, they have launching down to a tee! It's a pleasure to watch them rig the boat on the hard and slip it into the water, nothing is strenuous or done with difficulty...

 

[Zagato]

Pedant mode: Drascombes have gunter rig not gaff.

thank you!

 

[Searush]

Pedant mode: Drascombes have gunter rig not gaff.

Local mate has a 15ftLOD + sprite gaff cutter. (snip)

That will be a spritsail then, I suppose? Or is Sprite the boat design name?

That's the trouble with being pedantic, people will pick up on your mistakes too.

It may be a Gunter rig, but the spar is still called the Gaff, so I wouldn't be too pedantic about it, the only difference is the sail cut & the angle of dangle on the gaff.

 

[electrosys]

Thanks for the replies, your points say why Drascombe Coasters and alike are priced at a premium ...

Without doubt the Drascombes (and Original Devon's etc) are ideal for trailer sailing an essentially 'open' boat. But the real reason behind their premium prices lies - as with De Beers and the diamond market - in the manufacturing licence strategy that the Watkinson estate has adopted. A simple case of demand exceeding supply in the secondhand market.

See: http://project-paltus.99k.org/ for an alternative, if you fancy building your own, or having one commissioned.

 

[Neil]

It was about the same when I had a boat on the mooring, either putting the tender in, messing about with another engine or having to wait for a costly ferry to get to the boat then having to take the cabin cover off, sail covers off, get the sheets ready, untie tillers, boom, check engine, etc you could easily argue launching something like a Drascombe is a lot easier and quicker.

Actually, I'd never thought about that bit much - even strolling down the pier, you still have to spend time before actually setting off.......

You can also have the boat in your garden saving hundreds on mooring fees, she will be better looked after and will not deteriorate so quickly as opposed to sitting on a mooring.

Also, when it's really blowing and lashing down, you can just look out your dining room window and not have to worry about what's happening to your boat down in the harbour.

As for accommodation, I've been meaning to rig a boom tent for the last couple of years - a mate and I were going to camp-sail-cruise. Never happened yet. On the other hand, I had plans to trail to a posh B&B on the Shannon Lakes with its own slip - sleep in a proper bed and head off each day after a cooked Irish breakfast. Haven't managed that, either!

Out of interest, and I apologise if I'm highjacking the thread, but what might be the average day sailing to extended cruise ratio for all you with 'proper' yachts?

 

[DanTribe]

[QUOTE
It may be a Gunter rig, but the spar is still called the Gaff, so I wouldn't be too pedantic about it, the only difference is the sail cut & the angle of dangle on the gaff.[/QUOTE]

Is that correct?
I always thought that the upper spar on a gunter rig was the yard.

 

[ProDave]

I feel this thread is just going over the same discussions as your previous thread.

And you are getting the same arguments for and against different types of boat and their ease (or otherwise) of trailer sailing.

As I have said before I can rig my boat in about an hour. That not only includes raising the mast (2 man job but with some extra tackle could be made into a 1 man job) but fitting the boom on (main sail already on boom) fitting the roller furling jib, fitting the outboard on the back etc.

The hardest part in my case is getting the mast onto the mast foot bracket. My mast is about 3 feet longer than the boat, so there's no way it could be towed with the mast still on the foot, the rear overhang would be illegal and dangerous. It really needs two to lift the mast onto it's foot, one to lift it and the other to guide it and put the pin in at the mast foot. A tabernacle would have the same problem, so unless the mast is very light I find it hard to imagine doing that bit single handed.

But as I have also said, I chose not to use my boat as a trailer sailor, because I don't want that bother each time we go sailing. But as others have said it can take half an hour to get ready to go out once we reach the harbour, but most of that is loading our gear on, fitting the GPS, depth finder and compass, removing the sail cover and removing most of the fenders.

I think it's the actual launching and recovery that puts me off trailer sailing. That is so dependant on what slipway you use. A "perfect" slipway will be wide, straight, constant gradient and lead down into the sea with a pontoon alongside (a pontoon alongside will greatly ease recovery) and it will lead down into completely sheltered water inside a harbour. Anything less than that, and it will be harder to launch and recover.

I could launch my boat at a slipway just 4 miles from home, but it's too shallow and leads straight out to open water with no pontoon or anything to tie up to. That would be hard work in anything other than dead calm, and then it would be no good for sailing.

My boat has a lifting keel. Some people seem to consider them extra work. In reality, it's about 2 minutes winding a handle 50 turns to lower it, and 50 turns to raise it. You don't lower it until the boat's in the water. My boat lives in a drying harbour so the keel is up, and only lowered when we go sailing.

It's been mentioned before about maintenance of a lifting keel. I'm nearly there on that point. I did some modifications to my trailer over the summer to enable the keel lo be lowered on the trailer. Well I didn't get it quite right, and I can only lower my keel part way on the trailer. But I can now see the bit I missed, so have plans for another small modification to the trailer next summer which should get it right and allow the keel to be properly lowered for maintenance. If you do look at a lifting keel boat, look underneath at where the keel drops down while it's on the trailer, and see if there is an easy way to modify the trailer to allow the keel to drop.

All I can suggest is you keep on looking at boats. Don't rule anything in our out. Just look at any boat that is for sale on a trailer, with or without a cabin, and sooner or later you will find something that looks right. Before buying, you should at least ask the seller to show you how to put the mast up while on the trailer so you can see how easy it is, and work out if there are ways to make it easier.

 

[Lakesailor]

It may be a Gunter rig, but the spar is still called the Gaff, so I wouldn't be too pedantic about it, the only difference is the sail cut & the angle of dangle on the gaff.

Is that correct?
I always thought that the upper spar on a gunter rig was the yard.

...and so it goes on.

 

[northwind]

The one thing you should bear in mind is that drascombes sail like a dog.

The rig is floppy, and combined with a loose footed main mean that beating to windward is very frustrating exercise.

I had a Devon lugger for a season, while it was fun, coming from sailing dinghies the rig was very frustrating.

The rudder arrangement is another pain in the backside, dropping a heavy arrangement of steel plate and pipe through the slot in the deck, and worse trying to ship the thing when approaching a beach is fraught with hassle.

The boat I had was a later one, which had had its "internal" tanks filled with expanding foam to meet the RCD standards, so it was heavy, earlier ones, if flooded barely float.

I am amazed that people place so much affection for what is a very old flawed design. There are much better day boats than the drascombe!

 

[ProDave]

Out of interest, and I apologise if I'm highjacking the thread, but what might be the average day sailing to extended cruise ratio for all you with 'proper' yachts?

Well if you class my 18 ft boat as a "proper yacht" I can say that so far we have only used her for day sailing, but I do hope next year to start having little excursions with 1 night away.

My main reasons for liking the cabin are shelter if you need it, somewhere to store a lot of gear, and a heads with privacy so you don't have to pee over the side in company or use a bucket.

 

[VicS]

[QUOTE
It may be a Gunter rig, but the spar is still called the Gaff, so I wouldn't be too pedantic about it, the only difference is the sail cut & the angle of dangle on the gaff.

Is that correct?
I always thought that the upper spar on a gunter rig was the yard.

I think, because the gunter rig is a variation on the gaff rig, gaff is the correct term. Ceratinly it is known it as the gaff on the Mirror but it is quite commonly also called a yard.

Yard also refers to the horizontal spars of a square rigger and the supporting spar of a lug sail.

 

[DownWest]

Without doubt the Drascombes (and Original Devon's etc) are ideal for trailer sailing an essentially 'open' boat. But the real reason behind their premium prices lies - as with De Beers and the diamond market - in the manufacturing licence strategy that the Watkinson estate has adopted. A simple case of demand exceeding supply in the secondhand market.

I don't think the Devon range has anything to do with the Watkinson estate. Read their website for the story. They were quite happy to pay for the name, but were shown the door.

For the hairy bikers.... BOWsprite.

And it possibly is gaff for a gunter, but yard for a lugger. (I call it a yard on my gunter:<))

 

[Signed Out]

So many discussions going on in one!

And isn't a 'high-peaked gaff' very similar to a gunter?
And dare I say a Chinese lug is a junk, ha.

May I mention my old favourite (bar Folkies and Aphrodite 101s of course)- the Hunter Liberty, or in this case, it's Minstrel sibling? Meant to be good TSs with their water ballast (think so) and shallow draft, but more importantly- easy to rig. Ok the ketch won't sail high perhaps but I don't that this is perhaps Z's priority. The gunter version may point better, no idea.

Not quite as trad looking as others discussed in Z's various posts, but fulfil many of his criteria.

Sorry Zag if this takes te thread back to 'which boat...' territory.