Total newbie - Go easy on me!

[vodzurk]

Apologies for not replying to all you guys/gals who have been fantastic in your advice... am recently back from honeymoon where i only had a phone to check internet on.

The honeymoon involved 2 days of renting a rib, and hoping around the islands at Dubrovnik. Learnt a lot about anchoring (cant pull it up? well, don't wrap it around a cleat for leverage!), waves (uh oh, weather has changed and 45 mins away from harbour!), reversing (a great "ooooh s**t, boats full o water!" moment). Also re-iterated how much we both love it. Hope one day (next summer?) we'll be confident enough to tow something of our own down to the south coast so we can anchor and swim again!

Haha Far from it, unfortunately. Very much full time employed, five days a week with the day job, and play in a band, usually at weekends, but we've cut back to only about 20 - 30 gigs a year these days which leaves a little bit of time to go sailing.

I also have a very patient, understanding wife who also happens to work shifts so doesn't tend to notice if I'm missing at weekends now that the kids have pretty much all grown up, and she's long since learned to love me despite my faults (one of which, I guess, is that I get a little obsessed with my interests)

Good luck with the whole getting married / honeymoon thing! If you happen to be back by the last weekend of September, my local sailing club is holding a "taster day" 24th September (http://www.fossc.org.uk/images/Taster_Day_2016.pdf).

Far from cruisers on the Bristol Channel, it's sailing dinghies on a lake in Frampton-on-Severn, but the club is a very friendly place, only a short skip up the M5 from Bristol, the day is free, no bookings required.

If the sun shines and we get a bit of wind, it'll be lovely.

Hi tatali0n,

Apologies, we only got back from honeymoon 2 days before your clubs taster day, and well, everything was "no" for that, needed to collapse and get mind back to non-holiday mode . Though to be honest, at this moment I don't think we're too open to considering sails. It might be a thing in a few years, but for easy-access, it does seem like engines are where it's at for easy fun. Work/home demands are too high to start a long learning process (I started a spare-time study course 3 years ago, and now hate every minute of the bloody thing. It's sucking out my life, so am now little scared of committing to any long learning paths). Quite surprising how much of a busy life you seem to lead and yet have time for boatyness! I'm guessing once you're over the learning/experience bump its more a "think I'll hop on the boat for a few hours" thing? For me at the moment it's a million-item-long checklist.

Vodzurk,
To, partially, answer one of your questions. Lots of yacht and sailing clubs have members with motorboats. Although I live in Bristol, I'm a member of Cardiff yacht club, we have lots of motorboats. I'm not sure of the situation at Portishead cruising club. I'm pretty sure Cabot cruising club has motorboats. There is also another club in Bristol, I think they're called Bristol motorboat club. Their clubhouse is the barge, Sabina near Redcliffe bridge.
You may find some details on the BCYA website, see my signature.
Allan

Hi Allan,

I think Cardiff might be a good contender for anything we do... as the train station 5-mins from our door has a service to Cardiff.

I guess my initial concern for the first months will be to keep the boat near to Bristol... as I've yet no experience towing the thing.

Cardiff Yacht Club
http://www.cardiffyachtclub.co.uk/
It looks like it might also be a good place for us to leave anything we buy (under 8 meters)...

Joining fee (one off) - £100
Family membership - £240pa
Work Levy - £100pa
Bar Levy - £50pa
Moorings up to 25' - £250pa
Total - £740.

In comparison, a 5m berth at Portishead Marina looks to be £1100pa.

Bristol Motorboat Club
Can't find this. Did find http://www.balticwharfsailing.com/ but it seems to be purely sailing.

Cabot Cruising Club
http://www.cabotcruisingclub.co.uk/
Seems to involve more alcohol than the Cardiff Yacht Club, bonus!

Think I'll see what they're up to when I've a spare Wednesday night (sadly busy for a few weeks).

Portishead Cruising Club
http://pccsail.com/
I like the look of their "Cruise in Company" events! Looks a great idea considering the advice earlier in this thread.


Back to work for now... overrun my lunch break!

 

[vodzurk]

Vodzurk,
+1 to join a club.
Though, there are many different kinds of club out there. Some are as much if not more about the social side of life rather than the sailing which if you are wanting to use your limited leisure time to learn boating on the water can be a bit of a bore. Then there are membership clubs you can join which give you access ( for a monthly fee) to various types of boats which would give you and your partner the chance to find out what kind of boat and sailing you both enjoy and can afford. Then there are shared ownership "clubs" which for the price of a Fletcher and trailer could offer you a fast rib on the Solent for 6 weeks a year or a canal boat that is big enough for you and some friends to holiday on each year. Or both as your wealth increases!
I guess the point I am trying to make is to take your time to look at and try a few different boat clubs and ownership options before doing what a lot of us boaters do which is to just go out and buy a boat.

Hi Lioness,

Thanks for your tips!

Do you know of any nearby (Bristol + 1 hour drive around it) membership clubs allowing access to a variety of (motor) boats?

I've seen the shared ownership type ones... they look great... get something 4x larger than the price you're paying, plus the other members have incentive to get involved to show you the ropes. Unfortunately, the wife wants something that is "ours and nobody elses'" (sigh).

Getting experience of a few types would probably be invaluable... it's just finding out how to do that! Am regretting renting ribs on our honeymoon now... as there are plenty of ribs to rent down on the Solent, plus we've had our PB-lvl2 in a rib, so kinda have a feel for those.

It's Bristol cruising club at Sabina, friendly bunch and cheap beer!

Yep yep, will be dropping by there! Unfortunately can't justify it (wife won't let me) at the moment after almost 4 weeks of drinking EVERY SINGLE DAY due to honeymoon, wedding and stag do... I think I'll die if i stop by a bar (I can't do this whole "you don't need to drink" thing in a bar).

Best bits of advice yet!

The problems with going out and buying a boat now are twofold. Firstly you dont really know what you are looking at when you see one. Secondly boats are way easier to buy than to sell and as someone who can easily be taken advantage of because of lack of knowledge .......... !

Powerboats in particular can be very appealing when you first come to boating. After all, you can drive a car so whats to worry about driving a boat. Lots as it happens but thats the way people think. But in the fullness of time when you know what you are doing they become more boring. Whereas sailing is all about developing a skill and the enjoyment of the journey, motorboats tend to be about the destination and speed for speeds sake. I guess thats why a far higher proportion of sailors go in for the training courses than mobo drivers. And anything from a half to two mpg doesnt help.

Yeah, I agree... it's worrying that there could be a significant (to us) outlay, yet we could be lumbered with something we'll grow to loath or just bored of. That's why initially we're thinking a speedboat @ under £5000. Quick/easy access... hopefully able to keep it in the garage (cut costs/save for something bigger)... and get a feel for it. Could be that the speedboat is something that gets us sick of boating overall... which I guess would be a kinda good thing in itself, as the financial damage would be limited . Or it could be "dammit, we wanna go to France in it now, need bigger!". Could be "dammit, wanna go to Spain but can't afford so much fuel, must learn sailing!"... I'm hoping that I'll have more free time come summer next year to invest into more non-committed learning (though will probably leave sailing lessons until summer-2018... wanna at least dedicate a summer to the first boat).

The mpg was a bit shocking to learn... £100 per hour on fuel not being unusual for a 10m dual-engined motorboat was a shock. I think with regards our first boat likely to be a single engined ~800kg boat, and only used every other weekend... I think it'll be affordable to start with. That's assuming we don't have to pay for mooring or lifting (the later now looking likely... a 1.6 Astra on a slip looks like it might destroy the clutch).

As for not knowing how to assess what we buy... it is a concern. Any suggestions? I know there are surveys available, but is this worth it for a <£5k boat?

Have to totally disagree with the Bosun. Nothing boring about motorboats, especially on long trips. With our last boat we would aim at 100 miles per day over a ten hour period. With our new boat which isn't ready yet we'll be able to travel vastly greater distances in a fairly short time although more dependent on conditions with a fast boat. You don't have to be wet and cold to prove you are a sailor (or seaman if you prefer). I can sail by the way but much prefer power. Each to his own!

Lol, everybody has a different opinion... love that .

You say "more dependent on conditions with a fast boat"... really? I'd have thought something like a Sealine S28 would be alright up to (including) Beufort 6? (don't know much about wind measurements yet, but chart shows that as up to 30mph winds and 4ft waves). Are sailboats comfortable beyond even that?

Can I ask what your new boat is?

I think sailing is more about the journey, power-boating the destination.

A gross over-simplification, I know, and more a reflection of my own mindset than anybody else's choice of float. I also know that the main thing is to be at sea, no matter the means.

A friend of mine once proudly showed me a photo of his brand new, shiny powerboat. A big, glossy grp thing with a flyaway bridge, etc. I cheekily asked him where on earth he was supposed to haul the sails up, his testy reply:

"The only canvas on my boat is the canvas we use to strap the champagne bottles down whilst we're doing doughnuts around the rag and stick brigade!"

I do know for me that nothing quite matches the magic of that moment when the sails first fill, the boat heels pliant to the wind and you finally still the rumble of the engine and begin to sail. At that point the boat seems to come alive, and Dad will then typically glance at the GPS, watch the ETA stretch out as the ground-speed falls away, and mutter discontentedly that we're never going to make it in now before the pub shuts, and start to expound on the merits and virtues of motor-sailing.

Dad is, at heart, a power-boater

If I were retired, I'd definitely be doing sail-training. The size/value/cost looks massively different to powerboats. £30k on powerboat doesn't get something as comfortable to spend a fortnight on as a £30k sailboat.

You're probably right about sail/power being about journey/destination . I think for myself it's gonna be a bit of a mix to start with... just having some level of fun and getting the feel for it at the same time. Then hopefully something bigger (probably with engine) that I can spend weekends on... leading to something bigger still (plural engines) that I can spend weeks on, at which point the journey becomes important. Ok, the last step is currently a dream, but hopefully the path to it will start over the next 6 months.

Also, I agree with your dad... a pint after a day on the water seems the best way to cap it off!

 

[bitbaltic]

I'd have thought something like a Sealine S28 would be alright up to (including) Beufort 6? (don't know much about wind measurements yet, but chart shows that as up to 30mph winds and 4ft waves). Are sailboats comfortable beyond even that?

Planing mobos like the Sealine are intended to go fast in flat water. Displacement mobos are better for handling big waves. We were en route from Cardiff to portishead a couple of weeks ago in a top-end F6. We were passed by a planing mobo of the sealine sort, he was having great fun but also a wet and bumpy ride. He also looked like he knew what he was doing. These boats are not at their best in that sort of weather for extended periods.

Go look at the bristol channel in a F6 westerly with the tide going out. It can be an absolute washing machine. A gale in the Bristol channel produces the kind of sea state you might see in a storm elsewhere (or in the books).

Sailing boats are generally more comfortable than mobos, certainly planing mobos, of equivalent size as the weather gets rougher. Pretty much all sailing yachts over about 25ft (and lots of smaller ones) are designed to be at sea for several days and sail long distances rather than just weekend like most planing mobos, so they are more likely to encounter worse weather and built accordingly. It's not wise to think of 'upper limits' of weather because when you get close to gale conditions the crew not the boat (however big it is) becomes the limiting factor, and where you draw a line largely depends on who's on board and what their and your experience is, rather than whatever it says about heavy weather in the manual.

 

[vodzurk]

Planing mobos like the Sealine are intended to go fast in flat water. Displacement mobos are better for handling big waves. We were en route from Cardiff to portishead a couple of weeks ago in a top-end F6. We were passed by a planing mobo of the sealine sort, he was having great fun but also a wet and bumpy ride. He also looked like he knew what he was doing. These boats are not at their best in that sort of weather for extended periods.

Go look at the bristol channel in a F6 westerly with the tide going out. It can be an absolute washing machine. A gale in the Bristol channel produces the kind of sea state you might see in a storm elsewhere (or in the books).

Sailing boats are generally more comfortable than mobos, certainly planing mobos, of equivalent size as the weather gets rougher. Pretty much all sailing yachts over about 25ft (and lots of smaller ones) are designed to be at sea for several days and sail long distances rather than just weekend like most planing mobos, so they are more likely to encounter worse weather and built accordingly. It's not wise to think of 'upper limits' of weather because when you get close to gale conditions the crew not the boat (however big it is) becomes the limiting factor, and where you draw a line largely depends on who's on board and what their and your experience is, rather than whatever it says about heavy weather in the manual.

Thanks for your reply bitbaltic, great info!

So... with equivalent experience (say one guy had 100 hours experience in a mobo, and another guy had 100 in a sail-bo)... the sail-bo could generally remain "safe" in worse conditions?

I didn't realise the Bristol Channel was quite so subject to weather... I thought its main problem was the tide and the currents it generates... I didn't realise that the weather effects are amplified, so great info there (probably obvious to everyone else, d'oh!).

So with a Sealine, the F6 you witnessed... what would be the danger of a less experienced skipper? Can those things actually capsize quite easily if caught unaware by a side-wave? Or is it more that it'll just be one hell of a bumpy ride? The later sounds strangely attractive .

I think for the upcoming 5 years we'll certainly be fair-weather boaters... though The Dream™ (10+ years from now) is international boating so will tune my obsession towards displacement stuff.

I wish we'd filmed the waves when the weather changed on our honeymoon rib adventure (we were too busy dealing with it in this rib)... the changed waves were scary to us to start with (they weren't breaking, so don't know if they count as "waves"), and we noticed all the other pleasure boats had vanished, but after 30 mins trying to return to harbour we got comfortable with it. Also noticed that we had to reduce our speed so as not to get battered, think we were doing 8-10mph. A great experience, though we'd not head out in it, it was good to get through (especially timing the waves to our turns and speed... I don't think we were in any risk of capsizing, but still a great experience). I think we recorded the day in OpenCPN, will try to have a look at what info I can pull from it (don't understand the application very well yet). Watched this last night, video titled "big waves"... and chuckled a bit.

 

[bitbaltic]

Thanks for your reply bitbaltic, great info!

So... with equivalent experience (say one guy had 100 hours experience in a mobo, and another guy had 100 in a sail-bo)... the sail-bo could generally remain "safe" in worse conditions?

It doesn't really work like that.... there are so many differences between boats, in condition, usage and crew capability that you can't generalize in that way. To keep it to sports planing mobos like the Sealine, most planing mobo skippers wouldn't be out in heavy weather because that's not what they are predominantly used for- a flat hull is designed for a flat sea! So your mobo skipper's 100 hours might include less heavy weather experience than someone who had done a single 12 hour offshore trip on a sailing boat, and count for nothing if caught out in a blow. Conversely, in coastal cruising planing mobos can get away from bad weather and into port more quickly than a sailing yacht or displacement mobo, which is inherently safer when you realise the blow is coming. And on and on. There are far too many facets to boil it down to a simple 'this is safer than that' because the boats are used and designed for totally different applications. Big displacement mobos, like lifeboats, are obviously very safe at sea, but you probably don't want to receive their fuel bill.

In the Bristol Channel you do not really want to be out in anything in marginal conditions, especially when you are learning.

I didn't realise the Bristol Channel was quite so subject to weather... I thought its main problem was the tide and the currents it generates... I didn't realise that the weather effects are amplified, so great info there (probably obvious to everyone else, d'oh!).

It funnels the wind as well as the tides, and is very exposed to the prevailing westerly winds. When the tide is moving westward (ebbing out) and the wind is blowing from the west (air moving east, ie in the opposite direction) in particular, you can get a very rough sea in conditions called 'wind over tide'. This happens frequently at all times of year. Some places it is worse than others, particularly where the tide runs in a channel. Take a windy weekend drive to the cliff road between Portishead and Clevedon when the tide is going out and the wind is doing F6+ from the west- it's worth seeing the state of the sea below you.

A couple of weeks ago during the Holms Race we were off Steepholm island in completely windless conditions and waves of 1m or so were being generated by the incoming tide alone, not swell from elsewhere or anything to do with weather, just the disturbance resulting from the mass of water funneling into the narrowing Channel. You can imagine what that is like in an easterly blow.

So with a Sealine, the F6 you witnessed... what would be the danger of a less experienced skipper? Can those things actually capsize quite easily if caught unaware by a side-wave? Or is it more that it'll just be one hell of a bumpy ride? The later sounds strangely attractive .

I know nothing about mobo stability so you will have to ask some of the mobo owners here. The danger of bigger waves comes with being beam-on to them. The generally accepted formula in the sailing yacht world is that being hit beam-on by a breaking wave of a height equivalent to the beam of the yacht prsents a risk of capsize. e.g. for my boat with a 3m beam that means a risk of capsize if hit by a 3m breaking wave. I would expect the stability of the average high-sided planing mobo to be less than this, but again as they are not designed to be out in that sort of weather so it is not seen as an issue. Moreover genuine breaking waves are rare inshore except in the surf zone, even in bad weather most big waves which look like they are breaking really just have breaking tops. In storm conditions however these things are out there. There is a chapter in Adlard Coles' Heavy Weather Sailing on handling motorboats in heavy weather from the third edition onwards, which may help with some of these questions more than I can. Link to the latest 7th edition but older editions are similar and available cheaply.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Heavy-Weat...5148774&sr=8-1&keywords=heavy+weather+sailing

I wish we'd filmed the waves when the weather changed on our honeymoon rib adventure (we were too busy dealing with it in this rib)

Not that I wish to be a continuous killjoy but if you are going to get a rib like that can I suggest that if you have not read it you read the following report. It's a sad tale but it shows how little things in recreation boating can add up to complete disaster and it gives a lot of positives about good practice with a small rib. A lot of it will have been covered in your PB2 but it is a worthwhile read.

https://assets.digital.cabinet-office.gov.uk/media/547c6f30e5274a4290000011/Milly.pdf

 

[vodzurk]

It doesn't really work like that.... there are so many differences between boats, in condition, usage and crew capability that you can't generalize in that way.

...

In the Bristol Channel you do not really want to be out in anything in marginal conditions, especially when you are learning.

Ah, ok, thank you for the explanation (and your time in giving it). It certainly wasn't a query i was aiming to put into practice any time soon... I expect our firsts year will be 100% fair-weather boating, certainly not deliberately pushing into any riskiness! .

It funnels the wind as well as the tides, and is very exposed to the prevailing westerly winds. When the tide is moving westward (ebbing out) and the wind is blowing from the west (air moving east, ie in the opposite direction) in particular, you can get a very rough sea in conditions called 'wind over tide'. This happens frequently at all times of year. Some places it is worse than others, particularly where the tide runs in a channel. Take a windy weekend drive to the cliff road between Portishead and Clevedon when the tide is going out and the wind is doing F6+ from the west- it's worth seeing the state of the sea below you.

Good idea... Mmm... think I need to start a checklist of things we need to investigate/observe/learn... there seem to be a lot of them! This thread is certainly proving a good start point for me.

Not that I wish to be a continuous killjoy but if you are going to get a rib like that can I suggest that if you have not read it you read the following report. It's a sad tale but it shows how little things in recreation boating can add up to complete disaster and it gives a lot of positives about good practice with a small rib. A lot of it will have been covered in your PB2 but it is a worthwhile read.

https://assets.digital.cabinet-office.gov.uk/media/547c6f30e5274a4290000011/Milly.pdf

Yes, the Milly accident has been pointed out at least half a dozen times during the past 6 months to us. And I do appreciate the concern (and don't think you a killjoy, more a double-check that we are aware).

We are pretty religious with the kill-cord. The only exception to the kill-cord advice that we sometimes do is keeping the engine on, in neutral, if far from assistance... the thought terrifies me of the engine not restarting (one rental we've had was a two-stroke, and had the oil-in pipe obstructed... when we returned the boat and handed the keys over, it didn't turn on again). "Thanks" to the Milly accident we both know full well when switching to be very careful and absolutely not to touch the throttle until hooked up. With other boats nearby or in a harbour, yep, engine off when switching! (And only switching if feels safe to do so). I know, it's probably still advised to cut the engine when switching .

Additionally, using a Kill-Cord was constantly drilled into us on the PB2 training. However, the implications of a "hook" were not (to my memory). During our return to harbour I mentioned earlier in bad weather (to us... which was probably laughable to anybody else), that was definitely a concern I had... that if I mis-time a turn to slip over the crest of a wave, that I didn't not know what would happen if we did. That said, our care was pretty high, we certainly weren't pushing any envelopes in that weather, no hooks occurred .

 

[Reptile Smile]

Well.

I used to live on a motorboat in Bath Marina, and made several lovely trips to Bristol. Once in a motorised tender on a date with a girl who basically never spoke to me again. Hey ho.

You might want to add to your list of places to investigate Chepstow and District Yacht Club (I'm currently Commodore). We're a small bunch of folks who like messing about in boats. We have, we believe the cheapest moorings in the Bristol Channel. I would be astonished if you found them un-affordable, but of course that's not to say it's the place for you - just that it's worth investigating (stunning surroundings, very secluded).

Now, with regards to your other points, please don't think I'm offering advice here, only personal experience. I'm certainly not wearing my official Commodore hat, just relaying my experience.

I did a lot of sailing windsurfers and some dinghys as a kid. In 2012, I wanted to sail something bigger, so bought a boat in Bristol Harbour for 400 quid. I got a friend to help me move it to CDYC. Loved it. (BTW - regarding Bristol Harbour waiting lists - I joined the sailing boat waiting list 4 years ago and probably have another 3 to go. Motor boats are shorter lists but prob not much sorter. Also, some people love trailer launching and some people get bored of it very rapidly!)

In the next 5 years, I had another 5 boats. I didn't keep sinking them, you understand - I just kept seeing another boat I liked. I bought a 24" Jeopardy in Essex, and brought it up the Thames estuary, and back along the K&A canal. I then had a disastrous Caprice, a wonderful Hurley 20, an outstanding Achilles 24 that was in Kent and couldn't repeat my previous trick - got stuck in Reading. Finally got my current Caprice, but always keep my eyes out. None of them cost more than 600. Each time I sold the previous one and bought the next one.

So I'm trying to get across the idea that you can have a metric shedload of fun in boats and not spend a lot.

I also think that whilst you have to treat the Severn Estuary with respect (and it really has handed my arse to me several times), people have been navigating it since Roman times. You have to bear in mind some simple rules, and stick to benign days. Then life is good. I certainly have never (in a sailing boat) had two engines on my boat and sometimes have barely had one. I think sometimes people hanker after the spirit of yesteryear, of Swallows and Amazons, of adventure and learning, and then tell you off when you do it.

Like I said, it's not advice - I'm just saying I learnt by doing it, by throwing myself into it (not the Severn!). I joined a club and found the people were amazing, and got a lot of learning done that way. Now almost all of my sailing is single-handed, but that's just the way I roll. A club is also a great way to buy cheap boats!

Don't be scared of it. But do do what's right for you. For some people, that's courses - for some, it's learning by doing.

But either way, welcome! It sounds like you're one of us now, and not one of them...

 

[vodzurk]

Well.

I used to live on a motorboat in Bath Marina, and made several lovely trips to Bristol. Once in a motorised tender on a date with a girl who basically never spoke to me again. Hey ho.

You might want to add to your list of places to investigate Chepstow and District Yacht Club (I'm currently Commodore). We're a small bunch of folks who like messing about in boats. We have, we believe the cheapest moorings in the Bristol Channel. I would be astonished if you found them un-affordable, but of course that's not to say it's the place for you - just that it's worth investigating (stunning surroundings, very secluded).

Cheers for the heads up!

I think our plan has now become to first get a motorboat (moving a step up from original speadboat plan to one with a berth as this gives us more range with stopovers). After that, I think we'll probably be in a mega-expensive marina for a month or two, getting to grips with the boat in a safe place. This is looking like Portishead (very near) or Swansea (2 hours away) so far. But after that... we'll see how we feel about relocating whatever boat we end up with.

Now, with regards to your other points, please don't think I'm offering advice here, only personal experience. I'm certainly not wearing my official Commodore hat, just relaying my experience.

I did a lot of sailing windsurfers and some dinghys as a kid. In 2012, I wanted to sail something bigger, so bought a boat in Bristol Harbour for 400 quid. I got a friend to help me move it to CDYC. Loved it. (BTW - regarding Bristol Harbour waiting lists - I joined the sailing boat waiting list 4 years ago and probably have another 3 to go. Motor boats are shorter lists but prob not much sorter. Also, some people love trailer launching and some people get bored of it very rapidly!)

In the next 5 years, I had another 5 boats. I didn't keep sinking them, you understand - I just kept seeing another boat I liked. I bought a 24" Jeopardy in Essex, and brought it up the Thames estuary, and back along the K&A canal. I then had a disastrous Caprice, a wonderful Hurley 20, an outstanding Achilles 24 that was in Kent and couldn't repeat my previous trick - got stuck in Reading. Finally got my current Caprice, but always keep my eyes out. None of them cost more than 600. Each time I sold the previous one and bought the next one.

So I'm trying to get across the idea that you can have a metric shedload of fun in boats and not spend a lot.

I think our first boat is likely to be a motorboat, so a little limited on the bottom end pricing. Motors are the only experience we've had so far, and don't have much in the way to invest time-wise to sailing. We'll be looking at two boats this Saturday that we're wayyyy excited about seeing! Hopefully one of them will be THE one.

In the longer term, sailing might be where we go... but neither of us can commit the time at the moment .

I also think that whilst you have to treat the Severn Estuary with respect (and it really has handed my arse to me several times), people have been navigating it since Roman times. You have to bear in mind some simple rules, and stick to benign days. Then life is good. I certainly have never (in a sailing boat) had two engines on my boat and sometimes have barely had one. I think sometimes people hanker after the spirit of yesteryear, of Swallows and Amazons, of adventure and learning, and then tell you off when you do it.

Like I said, it's not advice - I'm just saying I learnt by doing it, by throwing myself into it (not the Severn!). I joined a club and found the people were amazing, and got a lot of learning done that way. Now almost all of my sailing is single-handed, but that's just the way I roll. A club is also a great way to buy cheap boats!

Don't be scared of it. But do do what's right for you. For some people, that's courses - for some, it's learning by doing.

But either way, welcome! It sounds like you're one of us now, and not one of them...

Yep, hopefully soon we'll be joining you guys n' gals on the water.

I think we've both pretty much decided that by March we'll have our boat bought. Possibly much sooner. Chatter on this forum has made us wary of the channel, so long term we're aiming for Swansea for mooring. Short term, possibly Portishead, just to have the boat near and get used to it in small steps.

As for learning... yeah... I think we probably need to get on with getting afloat. There's only so many videos I can take and I think I'm reaching my limit! The plan with regards the Channel will probably be to initially to keep it only an hour either side of high tide, and only in very good weather, with company if possible. For other learning, my next step is a VHF licence... probably online asap if we take the plunge on a boat this weekend.

Thanks for the warm welcome!

 

[Reptile Smile]

Yeah, I spent a year in Portishead when I was feeling flush. Crazy money but fabulous. Thoroughly enjoyed it.

Out of interest (living in Bristol myself), why Swansea rather than Cardiff?

 

[vodzurk]

Yeah, I spent a year in Portishead when I was feeling flush. Crazy money but fabulous. Thoroughly enjoyed it.

Out of interest (living in Bristol myself), why Swansea rather than Cardiff?

All down to the Pro's and Con's for us, assuming 7.5m boat:

Cardiff:

• PRO: Cheaper to get there by public transport than Swansea.
• PRO: Train goes direct from station 5 mins from our door...
• CON: ... but has a 40 minute walk at the other end.
• CON: Cost marginally more @ £1875.
• CON: Boating in the channel, which everyone and their dog says to stay clear of, it's dangerous, etc etc...
• CON: ... including extra wear and tear on boat from driving in the channel sludge.
• CON: Marinas not near town center.

Swansea:

• PRO: Looks cheaper @ £1750py for a "T" or "U" pontoon, whatever that is.
• PRO: Can mostly stay clear of the channels main current and head west along the Welsh coast...
• PRO: ... and have less wear and tear on boat from keeping out of the majority of the channel sludge.
• PRO: Marina is very close to town center.
• PRO: Train goes pretty close to marina...
• CON: ... but there's no direct trains, so have to switch or get coach.
• CON: More expensive public transport to get there.

 

[bitbaltic]

I think your pros and cons could be reconsidered a bit.

Am I supposing you are looking at Penarth Marina? If so you can get there by connecting at Cardiff Central to Penarth or Cogan rail stations. 10 minute walk to the marina.

The walk from Swansea Central to Swansea Marina is more like 25 minutes.

In terms of wanting access to a 'city centre' by which I guess you mean restaurants and bars. In Cardiff you can take your boat to Mermaid Quay, which has all that. We spent the summer in Swansea and quickly fell out of love with the area around it. With the exception of theYacht Club the restaurants and bars immediately around the marina are AWFUL. Better in SA1 but still not as good as Mermaid Quay.

On to more marine things. There is really not a wear and tear difference for channel 'sludge'. However there is a difference in fouling between the brackish water in Swansea and the fresh water in Cardiff. We had quite a bit more marine growth in Swansea than we would in Cardiff (usually just a thin slime coat at season end). The difference for your motorboat will be drag and increased fuel cost.

Swansea bay does definitely have a better average sea state than the inner channel around Cardiff. However, hate to tell you this, but it is still in the Bristol Channel and that means- locks. In Cardiff you also have the bay. so:

On any typical weekend in Cardiff you will be able to drive straight out of the marina (no locking down/up) into the always-flat waters of the bay. If you tire of the bay and the weather is nice, you can lock out to sea through locks which are available to you at all times of the day and almost all states of the tide. Cardiff is the only realistic all-tide port of refuge in the channel east of Milford Haven. This means that if you decide it's not nice out there, you can come back in and play in the bay. This has big advantages for beginners.

Contrast with Swansea. On a typical weekend you will have to lock down out of the marina itself and into the river-this takes time. There is no space for anything in the river so you will have to lock out through Tawe lock. The river outside Tawe lock is very shallow and the lock usually closes for 2-4 hours either side of low. Once you are out, then, you will have to stay out whatever the weather does. If you want to go out before seven am or return after 10pm in summer- you can't, and so if you go out for the evening guess what- you're staying out so be sure there is no south in the wind and you have a good anchor. These night time closures get worse in winter- just as you're buying your boat- when they shut up shop at five.

We found that these factors combined with vagaries of tide and weather really limited our use of our boat in Swansea, so do have a think about them. I think we might have overdone the fear factor for the inner Bristol Channel! In particular there is no better bit of water to learn to handle your boat on than Cardiff Bay. If you buy in the winter I would suggest you consider Cardiff first and then perhaps move to Swansea when the night's are longer.

 

[tatali0n]

Bitbaltic makes a very good point regarding the advantages of Cardiff over Swansea. Like him, we spent a few months of the summer down there and whilst I can't say we didn't enjoy ourselves, it was nice to get home back to Portishead.

Swansea Bay does give some shelter and had negligible tidal flow to deal with, but it does still border on open water, and the tidal range is still a factor, closing Tawe Lock for a few hours a day for half of any given month, and the lock operating hours are limited enough as it is. The restricted operating hours make trying to get anywhere up-channel with the tide out of Swansea a real pain in the proverbial.

On the other hand, it does have much more of a "seaside feel" than Cardiff, with sand and (that word again, relatively) blue water and places you can sail to and safely anchor without worrying too much about the tide; Mumbles, Ilfracombe, Oxwitch Bay, Tenby, Saundersfoot, Lundy, etc. However, other than Mumbles (or perhaps Neath?) to get to any of these places is, relatively, a quite an undertaking across an again, relatively, significant stretch of open water.

You also have to keep a blood sharp eye out for lobster pots, dratted things. We don't have trouble with them up our way, the tide washes them away

I'm a real fan of Portishead. I'm biased obviously, as Calstar is based there, but the marina facilities are excellent, the surroundings lovely, the three to four hours either side of tide give plenty of options for day sailing, and tide permitting, the lock is available 24 hours a day, which makes passage planning with the Bristol Channel tides a breeze, compared to the restrictions of sailing out of Swansea.

However, for what you want at this point, I reckon Hue is absolutely right. Cardiff Bay wins hands down. The bay itself is picturesque, sheltered but big enough to give you plenty of practice, adventure and entertainment in a small powerboat, and Mermaid Quay is possibly my Dad's favourite sailing destination (I don't quite see why, although I'm not blind to its charms)

The Barrage locks are 24 hours on all but a couple of hours around low water on the biggest of spring tides, and the tidal flow in the shelter of Penarth Roads really isn't that much of a worry, especially with the prevailing westerly winds, although as ever, pick your weather. That's just as true of Swansea Bay as well through. Or anywhere else coastal for that matter.

Aside from Penarth, which is a very pretty waterfront itself, within reach from Cardiff you've got Barry, Newport, Flatholm, Steepholm, Sully Island, Weston, Burnham, Clevedon, Portishead and Watchet, albeit some of those would be a stretch in the sort of boat you're looking at starting with.

The biggest consideration for us, when we were in your same position however, was convenience. Portishead is half an hour down the road for us. Cardiff an hour and a bridge toll, Swansea more like two hours and a bit. It's a lot of travel time to add on to the end of a day's sailing, and therefore influences whether or not you bother to go out in the first place.

By contrast, when it's just a quick nip down the M5, the decision is much easier, so the boat sees an awful lot more of us than it would over in Cardiff or worse, Swansea.

How did you get on at the weekend? You seemed to hint you might've been looking at something?

 

[bitbaltic]

However, other than Mumbles (or perhaps Neath?) to get to any of these places is, relatively, a quite an undertaking across an again, relatively, significant stretch of open water.

I wanted to try going up the Neath but nobody would come with me lol

There seems to be nothing there so I wanted to do it on a lunchtime HW just to say I'd been there rather than overnight. Maybe next year.

The biggest consideration for us, when we were in your same position however, was convenience.

Agree 100%. The real reason we are/have been in Cardiff is we live there (although we might go to Neyland next year!). Here's an idea, after all Portishead and Penarth marinas are the same group, so perhaps the OP could enquire whether a contract could be transferred within the group. He could then start off in one location and try the other for free with his 30 days' gratis reciprocal berthing. It may well be that Quay Marinas would then allow him to settle permanently (or, for the rest of the contract) in whichever of the two he liked best (with appropriate fee adjustment). I've never heard of them doing this but I've never heard of anyone asking for it, either, it doesn't seem improbable that they'd be happy to do something like that.

 

[vodzurk]

Hi all, thanks once again for such great advice...

On reflection, I think you're totally right... that Cardiff is likely to tick all of our boxes. Throw into the mix that Portishead + Penarth are the same company, that could be something to take advantage of. I think the downside is that they're quite expensive, but then for our first full year, it will almost certainly be worth it whilst we get our sea legs.

The one we were looking at a week ago apparently sold 1 hour before we were viewing. It was on ebay, going at £5500 the last we saw, with buy-it-now @ £8000. If we liked, we were going to go for it. It was more than our original budget of £5k, but if truly as awesome as the advert, then I'd bite my lip and max out the overdraft. But it sold before we got there *grumble grumble* . Then a day later it's appeared on Boatshed Bristol for £11,500. We were both more than a little peaved about that! Link: Boat in question.

Other things are in progress though, just further away than Bristol... will eagerly update if/when that happens.

You also have to keep a blood sharp eye out for lobster pots, dratted things.

Do those things float?! Ok, probably a dumb question there, but for some reason I thought they sat on the floor.

However, other than Mumbles (or perhaps Neath?) to get to any of these places is, relatively, a quite an undertaking across an again, relatively, significant stretch of open water.

Ah, I didn't realise that there was any issue with heading west past the Mumbles. If the weather is good, is it risky or something? Part of The Plan™ when thinking of Swansea was heading west along Wales. I quite like the look of heading over to Tenby and Caldey Island come summertime.

 

[bitbaltic]

Got a link to the original eBay listing? Possibly the vendor would have hoped to get the buy it now price and pulled it from auction when it looked like closing below that. Then he puts it in brokerage with 8k probably being his bottom line. That's at least what it looks like as the boatshed listing talks about 'the owner' having undertaken works over the last year. If as you suggest you would have paid the 8k for it:

Consider making an appointment to see it with the Broker (who likely knows nothing of your eBay interest). If meeting at the boat make sure he brings its documents i.e. The ownership history as shown by successive bills of sale (thus you can assure yourself that the ebayer and present vendor are the same). Look over it PROPERLY- a viewing should take around ?3 hours. If you like it offer a little below the 8k subject to survey. If the bloke was ebaying it he clearly wants rid so I think you'll quickly get his bottom line. Engage surveyor, get boat.

Lobster pots don't float but the lines to buoys at either end of the string can get tangled in propellers and stop your engines if you run over them.

Going west to Tenby is not dangerous, what Tatalion means is that Carmarthen bay is open water and you are quite far from land on the rhumb line so you will need to be self sufficient with a reliable engine and able to deal with any deterioration in weather and sea state.

 

[tatali0n]

Lobster pots don't float but the lines to buoys at either end of the string can get tangled in propellers and stop your engines if you run over them.

Hehe. Yes, indeed. Sorry, I should've been clearer. It is the buoys and lines that are the peril. The former don't float well enough, and the latter often floats all too well

Going west to Tenby is not dangerous, what Tatalion means is that Carmarthen bay is open water and you are quite far from land on the rhumb line so you will need to be self sufficient with a reliable engine and able to deal with any deterioration in weather and sea state.

Absolutely.

In a 7m Bayliner like the one you were looking at, you'd do it a damn sight quicker than we would in our Westerly, which actually makes the weather and tide easier to plan for of course. But do pick your weather and do pick the tide.

That said, whilst I'm far from knowledgeable at the capabilities of cruising powerboats, you see a fair number of that size and spec nipping from place to place around about the Bristol Channel, so if power boating is to be your thing, that to me looks like the perfect first step

 

[vodzurk]

Got a link to the original eBay listing? Possibly the vendor would have hoped to get the buy it now price and pulled it from auction when it looked like closing below that. Then he puts it in brokerage with 8k probably being his bottom line. That's at least what it looks like as the boatshed listing talks about 'the owner' having undertaken works over the last year. If as you suggest you would have paid the 8k for it:

....

Hi Bitbaltic, I sent you a PM regarding some details I don't wanna post publicly, me being of the paranoid type. Will post on here once the whole thing is sorted .

In a 7m Bayliner like the one you were looking at, you'd do it a damn sight quicker than we would in our Westerly, which actually makes the weather and tide easier to plan for of course. But do pick your weather and do pick the tide.

That said, whilst I'm far from knowledgeable at the capabilities of cruising powerboats, you see a fair number of that size and spec nipping from place to place around about the Bristol Channel, so if power boating is to be your thing, that to me looks like the perfect first step

Yep, am expecting whatever we get to have a crusing speed of 25 knots or more... a small, light mobo. So getting across the channel should only take 20 mins from Portishead, then can follow around to Cardiff. For our first year we certainly won't be going more than a mile or two from shore (unless charts show sand bars, low water, etc). And even then, we'll be doing what we can to make sure the engine is in tip top condition, and has run for many hours without issue before taking her out (and then likely with company!).



On a completely unrelated note... this morning I drove down the Portway along the Avon (@ about 0820h)... and oh my god... the whole thing was just utterly full of garbage. I was quite shocked by how much wood and whatever was floating in it... without any way around, it was the whole width... and maybe a 100 meter stretch that was just crammed. Is this normal?! I cant imagine going through something so dense and *not* knackering your boat/prop!

 

[vodzurk]

Tatali0n:
Btw, like the video on your blog today... Nice to see one where the camera isn't bouncing all over the shop! (not that yours have done, just boat+youtube = seasickness just watching a lot of them!). Our own efforts at filming are pretty unstable too...

(Rib rental in Dubrovnik last month).

Am thinking that we get a GoPro immediately, along with a gimbal mount if we get a boat sorted... so can start a vlog of our progress as the years pass . Will be fun to see us on day 1 going "Ohhhh bugger, what have we done!" versus 5 years down the line.

 

[bitbaltic]

Hi Bitbaltic, I sent you a PM regarding some details I don't wanna post publicly, me being of the paranoid type. Will post on here once the whole thing is sorted .

Okey dokey... don't seem to have received anything though. You can find an email on the blog (in signature link) if that suits better.

On a completely unrelated note... this morning I drove down the Portway along the Avon (@ about 0820h)... and oh my god... the whole thing was just utterly full of garbage. I was quite shocked by how much wood and whatever was floating in it... without any way around, it was the whole width... and maybe a 100 meter stretch that was just crammed. Is this normal?! I cant imagine going through something so dense and *not* knackering your boat/prop!

A huge amount of junk comes down the rivers after it rains. Not unusual to see huge tree trunks etc out at sea and you usually see some bits of wood on any journey. What always worries me is you only see this stuff when it's calm or calm-ish, never anything when the sea state is up, but it must still be there somewhere!

 

[tatali0n]

A huge amount of junk comes down the rivers after it rains. Not unusual to see huge tree trunks etc out at sea and you usually see some bits of wood on any journey.

Plus the spring tide; the increased flow and range always scours a hell of a lot more flotsam and jetsam off the banks and into the water. Funny enough, the closest we came to capsizing the old Drascombe Lugger was because Dad was concentrating on picking his way through all the debris being pushed up the Severn by the tide so didn't notice a big, mean old tree leaping out from the bank to grab our mast.

Or something like that. Lots of tide carried debris was involved, as was a tree, a mast and the river bank. Whether the tree actually leapt out to grab us or whether distraction directed the boat into said tree remains a matter open to some debate

What always worries me is you only see this stuff when it's calm or calm-ish, never anything when the sea state is up, but it must still be there somewhere!

What you can't see can't hurt you!

To be fair, worries me too. Then again, we've not hit anything significant in the last 1500 miles or so, so I guess we'll just keep our fingers crossed our luck holds.

Vodzurk, smacking into something hard or sharp is always a worry, so you do have to keep your eyes open and drive at a speed appropriate to the conditions. However, perhaps the more pertinent risk is of all that crap risks getting sucked up into your cooling system, blocking the filter and overheating your engine.

In reality though it doesn't cause too much of a problem. The big stuff is easy enough to avoid, though you do have to actively alter course to avoid it sometimes, and the small, filter clogging stuff mostly floats on the surface, or is too big to go up the intake, so making sure you regularly check and clear the filter out as part of your routine maintenance seems to take care of that.