To Pan or not to Pan?

[Georgio]

Nothing wrong with letting the CG know you have a potential problem but this isn't really a PanPan.

We caught something around our prop en-route to Pool last year, I called the CG just to make them aware that we may require assitance but would try and sort ourseles out first. We ended up dropping the hook just ourside poole entrance and went for a swim to clear the prop. All ended well and the CG called us a short time after to ensure all was not ok.

Being able to sail on and off your mooring is a nice thing to be able to do but not realistic for many if you keep the boat in a crouded marina. I would have thought most marina's would rather send a launch out to help you than watch you bounce of their customers boats.

I feel it is important to be as self sufficient as possible on the water, but at the same time if there is a problem I have no problem with making the CG aware so that when it sudenly get's more serious they will already know who you are.

That's my 2p anyway.

 

[Gordonmc]

I am with the no pan-pan team.
When my engine dumped its oil into the bilges I sailed to my alternate port... a marina and told them on Ch. 80 I would be sailing in and could I have a berth.
Not only was there no offer of taking lines, they allocated a berth that would be impossible for me to get to with the prevailing winds.
However, sail in I did and tied up on the first hammerhead.
While the adrenaline was going for a while the situation didn't warrant a pan-pan which could have been interpreted by CG as sufficient for a shout.

 

[chriscallender]

Hi Captain Bob

Scenario 1 : I think there's no generic answer. If "good weather" means a windless day and in the middle of a very busy shipping channel or being swept by the tide onto a sandbank or something, a pan-pan might just be appropriate, or there might be other ways. This situation happened to me once, I lost the engine leaving Fowey on a flat calm day. Initially I dropped the hook and started trying to fix the engine problem, but a large coaster on the horizon heading towards the harbour entrance made the problem more urgent. In the end, I called the harbour patrol on their working channel and they very helpfully towed me in for free (although I offered to pay). I guess if I'd been in open water and not in any danger I'd have been working on getting the engine going (which I later managed, so it was just a question of not having enough time). Or waiting for wind to head back towards any suitable harbour.

Scenario 2 has also happened to me years ago with an old outboard engine. On a busy river you're likely to find yourself alongside someone before you've even got time to think of sailing or calling on the VHF. When it happened I just used the remaining momentum to raft up alongside someone (fortunately had the fenders out already) and figured out what the problem was, then applogised sheepishly to the guy I had awoken (again he was very helpful).

Anyway all I can really say is that you need to weigh up any situation you find yourself in, but a pan pan would only be if you needed urgent help and there was no other way to solve the problem. I once heard a yacht use Pan Pan instead of Securite to report its position in fog and the coastguard were pretty quick to reeducate so the Pan Pan prefix will waken them up pretty quickly.

But you'll find that almost anyone is willing to help you with engine problems if they can, because its a case of "there but for the grace of God..."

 

[damo]

"Not only was there no offer of taking lines, they allocated a berth that would be impossible for me to get to with the prevailing winds."

Might I suggest that there was a misunderstanding here? If you told them you were sailing in, they might not have realised that you were SAILING in, since it is such a rare occurence.

Also you might have been unlucky and talked to the ignorant Saturday assistant /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

I have watched a yacht with engine trouble drift onto mud at the top of a big spring tide when they had ideal conditions for sailing back towards the lock. I think they were too embarrassed/ignorant to call panpan, and asked the marina to do it for them (which is never a good idea - the CG always want to speak directly to the casualty if possible) - the inshore rb towed them in, and the marina dory took them to their berth.

 

[CaptainBob]

Many thanks for everyone's answers. Very useful stuff.

 

[flaming]

Definitely not a panpan as long as you can sail in my opinion.

As to the sailing back into your berth, it does depend on your skills, but one tip is that fuel berths are normally pretty open and easy to get to. And once you're on the fuel berth you can guarantee the full attention of the marina staff, especially if there is a big MOBO circling ready to fuel....

 

[Anonymous]

This thread has been very useful to me to remind me that I should always have my ground tackle ready to deploy instantly - pull the pin and down with the hook - when in circumstances where engine failure would result in danger. I used to, but have fallen out of the habit - so now I will make it one of my essential checks before leaving my berth or moorings.

It should be possible to have the hook going down within two minutes of making the decision at the helm, and that includes getting to the anchor or turning on the windlass supply, securing the helm, fitting handles or levers to the windlass, etc. and there should be no components that could jam or seize through lack of use or due to being under load.

 

[damo]

And as has already been mentioned, have sail covers off and sails ready to hoist - there was a yacht wrecked on Alderney IIRC which had engine failure after stowing their sails before entering Bray.

 

[webcraft]

No, definitely not.

Sail as close as you can safely get to a suitable harbour / port of refuge then call someone (harbour master perhaps, marina, boatyard ) either on VHF or on your mobile (all the phone numbers are likely to be in your almanac)

(Most marinas will take a dim view of you sailing in and would rather come out and give you a tow)

Alternatively go to anchor somewhere sheltered with plenty of swinging room and give yourself time to look at the problem.

You can of course also call the CG on 16 for advice, but there is quite a high probability that they will upgrade it to a PanPan situation even if you haven't called it. This happened to me off Portpatrick several years ago when the prop dropped off a Jeanneau Sunshine as we were turning into the entrance with the wind on the nose at 20 knots. It was not a sailable into situation, so we turned round and drifted around while I tried to phone the HM - but it was late season (end of Oct) so I called the CG, explained there was no emergency but that I had an inexperienced female crew, a pretty rubbish forecast and would have to go round the Mull of Galloway in a F6 the dark or sail back to a port in the Clyde, so a tow into harbour from a local boat was my preferred solution. I said I specifically didn't require the services of the RNLI, but they sent them anyway and we were ignominiously towed in to my great embarrassment.

(I think if it happened again now I would probably sail over to the Irish side and maybe go into Glenarm . . . I would certainly think long and hard before calling the CG for advice.)

I certainly didn't consider a Pan Pan at the time - in fact it never entered my head, and it shouldn't be entering yours. Pan Pan is for a potentially dangerous situation, not engine failure. If you can't at least sail near enought to a port to get a tow in then you need to consider a large enough outboard as an auxiliary to your auxiliary. If you need the backup of a service like the AA at sea then you probably shouldn't be there IMO.

Get some practice at close quarters manoevering under sail and you will feel a lot happier when you are at sea. You could consider hiring an instructor for a day's own boat tuition concentrating purely on this.

- W

 

[fireball]

[ QUOTE ]
If you need the backup of a service like the AA at sea then you probably shouldn't be there IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]
That is a little harsh! There are plenty of things that can go wrong with an engine and time/place/weather make it in-advisable to do without outside assistance. There are pay4 services (ie sea start) that are specifically there to assist with non-emergency failures - if you are in their operating area and a member then I'd start with their services (after all, you are paying for them!).

 

[Aardee]

Only had a similar experience once. Motor failed while entering Portsmouth Harbour, en route to Port Solent. Notified the Harbour Patrol, who kept a close eye as we sailed through the entrance & down the harbour. We managed to sail as far as the outer waiting pontoon at PS, where we moored up prior to being towed in.

As has been stated above there's no harm in notifying the relevant authorities, even if you think a PanPan isn't necessary. There's definitely something comforting in the knowledge that help can be on hand if things turn seriously pear shaped.

 

[whipper_snapper]

Yes. I *always* have a specific plan for engine failure when in such circumstances. I discuss it with the crew and allocate tasks. Often, with an offshore breeze, the simplest plan is unfurl a headsail and run away, but even that requires that everyone knows what will happen and is not sitting on the sheets or hasn't got a mooring line wrapped around a sheet, or has not, in a fit of enthusiasm, put a sail tie around the headsail!

 

[webcraft]

[ QUOTE ]
There are plenty of things that can go wrong with an engine and time/place/weather make it in-advisable to do without outside assistance.

[/ QUOTE ] No argument from me there. If it is an emergency and there is a potential for things to go horribly wrong in the not too distant future then you are justified in putting out a Pan Pan - and nothing in my previous post contradicts this.

The question asked was should I put out a Pan Pan if my engine won't start because I don't trust myself to sail in. If you put out a Pan Pan then 9 times out of ten the CG will cover themselves by sending a lifeboat out or at least putting them on standby. This is tantamount to using the RNLI as a breakdown service IMO.

If you need this sort of support and Sea Start operate in your area then use it, but don't put out a Pan Pan, and don't think about sailing outwith the very limited areas Sea Start operate in.

Far better in my opinion to learn how to sail. You will feel more comfortable at sea and enjoy your sailing more.

Now what is harsh about that?

- W

 

[Anonymous]

Do you suppose that the CG would have behaved differently had you told them you had an inexperienced male crew? /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif Maybe they were not quite certain as to the nature of the emergency /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[Endeavourquay]

I would try to sail on, but...I think there are a lot of people (including myself) that are very wary of calling Mayday or Pan pan, worried that others might think the situation trivial.
Its the circumstances that count, I remember being on a friends boat, February at dusk, trying to get into Langstone Harbour against wind and tide, when the engine broke and we were heading backwards towards the Island/shipping lanes, I had to force him to call a Pan Pan, after hed spent an hour trying to fix it and 'seeing if anyone passes that can give us a tow' we had my young daughter on board, seriously scared and cold.
The next occasion that I needed a pan Pan was when I grounded in Chichester and was being swept/bounced on the boats side, across the sandbank towards the entrance on a falling tide, 23kn gusts, again winter and again dusk. I was terrified and needed help urgently but was too shy to call pan pan incase it was thought trivial, I called the harbour master up instead, and he got help to me within the required ten minutes so that my boat could be dragged off the bank.

So threads that clarify what is a pan pan to encourage people to use it if needed are good, those threads that suggest you struggle on beyond your limitations and capability rather than use pan pan, can encourage people to take risks too far.

We are lucky that there is Sea Start available in this area, but I know of lots of skippers who have never heard of it and dont know that like the AA/RAC they can call for help and join there and then.

 

[webcraft]

[ QUOTE ]
Do you suppose that the CG would have behaved differently had you told them you had an inexperienced male crew? Maybe they were not quite certain as to the nature of the emergency

[/ QUOTE ] I don't think that made the slightest difference and is a red herring /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

My point was that for a combination of reasons I wanted a tow in to Portpatrick in preference to sailing to a (distant) alternative in deteriorating weather at night. When I contacted the CG I was hoping they would find a local boat to tow us the half mile into the harbour - I was certainly not wanting a lifeboat, and would have preferred to have sailed back to the Clyde rather than have the RNLI come out to what was not an emergency.

All of which is rather of the point of the thread. Should Capn' Bob put out a Pan Pan for no other reason than his engine has stopped? If there is no immediate danger then no, he shouldn't - and I am surprised anyone on here would argue with that.

 

[l'escargot]

[ QUOTE ]
...if you motor across a bar or through a narrow channel with your sail covers on and your anchor lashed down...

[/ QUOTE ]
One of my pet hates, sails and anchor should also be ready for use whenever motoring.

 

[webcraft]

[ QUOTE ]
Same question, but you're part way up a river... does the situation differ if you're not at sea? If so what do you do if you're stuck up a river without a paddle (or an engine)?

[/ QUOTE ] This is a scenario which is more open to debate and depends entirely on the situation.

It happened to us tacking up the river to Kinsale in S. Ireland. The wind got flukey and we came to the bend in the channel by the fort. We attempted to fire up the aging MD6A . . . there was a click and a nasty smell of burning and that was that, the dynastart had burned out.

We had never been into Kinsale before, did not know the chanel and the wind was gusty and on the nose. Looking in the pilot I could see that we were likely to find a lot of moorings, so assumed we would be able to find an empty one and pick it up, then contact one of the marinas and ask for a tow. We decided to tack on up the river for a couple of miles.

It was not easy - a lot of short-tacking and a bit of apprehension as we were not totally sure of the channel, but we watched the echo sounder carefully and at no time did I feel we were in any danger. We got to the big open area opposite the main marina and went for a buoy far away from any expensive looking boats. To avoid any heroics we picked it up very inelegantly alongside the cockpit, making it fast to a stern cleat before transferring the line to the bow.

If we had been much less experienced then we might not have had the confidence to do this. However, it would have been a very easy move to turn and run downriver to clear water, where we could have contemplated our options.

Another option would have been to drop the hook just out of the channel and phone a few of the numbers inthe almanac to try to organise a tow.

Of course there are circumstances where it is a real emergency - the river might be full of shipping, the wind direction completely wrong for sailing in either direction and the weather might be turning really nasty. A Pan Pan could result in quick action by a nearby vessel which saves you from going aground or worse.

The important thing is to be able to tell the difference between an inconvenience and a genuine emergency.

Once you have dealt with an engine failure by sailing to your destination or to anchor or onto a mooring you will feel good about yourself and it will give you new confidence. We should all practice close quarters boat handling under sail as often as possible . . .

- W

 

[webcraft]

[ QUOTE ]
those threads that suggest you struggle on beyond your limitations and capability rather than use pan pan, can encourage people to take risks too far

[/ QUOTE ] I don't think any posts on this thread have suggested that.

IN your own case, bouncing across a bar like that, I think you were pretty reserved sticking to a Pan Pan - a lot of skippers would have called a Mayday and quite justifiably from your description of the event. Being able to differentiate between an emergency and an inconvenience is something that comes with experience.

I do think that anyone chooses to go to sea in a sailing boat should be striving to expand their limitations so that they can deal with an unexpected lack of engine by using the sails though. Anyone can practice picking up a mooring, MOB and other close quarters sailing exercises, and if you want expert helpo then getting an instructor on your own boat for a day is not prohibitively expensive.

- W

 

[damo]

My observation is that many, if not most, boats are used rarely. So for many owners the once or twice a year sail is for going somewhere - time for practise and gaining different experiences is time "wasted".

It is even worse for the little mobo with the family aboard out for a blast in the summer - it probably doesn't have an anchor aboard anyway, judging by all the panic calls on vhf in the summer.