Time for me to get another boat!

[MapisM]

P, generally speaking, I can only second everything Deleted User said.

Other than that, just a couple of thoughts:

1) based on last Jez comment, I suppose you could grab her at a steal price.
If that is the case, and if what you've seen gives you enough confidence, I'd rather take my chances and bring her at home as she is.
Spending money with a local surveyor, which for all you know could be the best friend of the broker or the seller, is extremely unlikely to produce any other effect than taking some cash out of your pockets.

2) if you would still prefer to have a survey/seatrial/oil samples done locally, depending on where the boat is located, I might suggest you someone for the job - and possibly also go there and keep an eye on the process for you. Just pm or email me for the details if you wish, but mind, I can't give you any guarantee.
In fact, if you don't want to send someone like Jim Pritchard from the UK (which is what could give you a decent peace of mind, but surely at a cost), I would rather think about my previous suggestion #1, first and foremost.

Anyhow, all the best, whatever you'll decide!

 

[vas]

cherry picking from Jez and MM comments, and based on the "narration" you've been given, I'd arrange another trip down there for a seatrial myself (maybe take another one who wont have the rose tinted glasses on) and if everything's fine, buy her.
Life too short to bother if hours are 500 or 600 or 800. Teak on the platform and carpets are consumables and definitely less than your other quests on removing screen, replacing alloy/ss framing, resealing etc.

my 2 drachma

cheers

V.

 

[capsco]

If it is the one I think it is, at today's exchange rate even full asking price makes it way below £40K. MM had it right, just buy it.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Life too short to bother if hours are 500 or 600 or 800.

Maybe in mechanical terms but in terms of the value of the boat, it definitely is worth bothering with. Whether its justifiable or not, the market pays less for a 1000hr boat than it does for a 500hr boat so Pete needs to be as sure as he can be about the hours. Secondly, when he sells the boat on eventually, any prospective buyer is going to be asking the same question him/herself so Pete needs to have some evidence to justify the number of hours he says the boat has done.

The broker says the boat has done 500hrs. How does he know that? If I was Pete I would be asking the broker to provide some evidence for that statement. And I would also be asking the seller to repair the hour meters even if that means zeroing them

 

[petem]

I've asked the broker for any documentation to support the alleged hours.

The hour meters are part of the tachometers. Sometimes they can be revived by dismantling them and blowing a hairdryer on the connecting ribbon. I could give this a go, post purchase, which would at least enable me to prove the hours to a future seller. New gauges are around £300 each. This will be factored into whatever price I offer but I do have to bare in mind the boat is already very cheap.

 

[petem]

If it is the one I think it is, at today's exchange rate even full asking price makes it way below £40K. MM had it right, just buy it.

Well I'm certainly in danger of spending £2-3000 on a survey / engine inspection. That pays for a fair chunk of remedial work and I don't believe the seller will be willing to shift much on price. Note that the broker is an official Princess and Beneteau dealer and former Fairline one so not some backstreet operator.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Note that the broker is an official Princess and Beneteau dealer and former Fairline one so not some backstreet operator.

Is the boat being sold by the dealer or by the dealer acting as a broker for the seller? If the former, then is there any warranty on the boat? I don't know where the boat is but if it was Italy, the dealer would be obliged to give you a warranty under Italian consumer laws.

This is also good news on the engine hours situation. If they can't justify the hours in any other way, ask them to give you a formal document confirming the hours when they sold the boat

 

[petem]

Unfortunately it's a brokerage boat Mike so no protection on that front.

 

[TwoHooter]

Interesting discussion and I'm sure others have been faced with the same dilemma:- grab a bargain or run away from something which really is a pig-in-a-poke.

FWIW we faced a similar issue this year when buying our Nordhavn 40. It was what we wanted, we were quite sure of that, and the one we were looking at was the only one in the world we could afford after looking at what else was available and factoring in the cost of a trans-oceanic delivery or shipping, plus VAT. The issues were some known defects and an almost complete lack of service history. We did, however, have live hour meters and we were able to pick up enough information about the two previous owners to be very confident they hadn't interfered with them. BTW the main engine was on 1750 hours which perhaps sounds a lot but is barely run in for a Lugger which ought to go for 30,000 hours in a Nordie.

We decided to engage a really good engineer and I spent a whole day with him crawling over every inch of the boat and its machinery, while my wife tested all the domestic appliances etc. We then did a sea trial followed by a lift-out and hull inspection. During the sea trial we measured temperatures carefully with infra red heat guns and I got oil samples on all 3 engines (main, wing, genset) and both transmissions. The engineer then worked out a worst-case scenario for the cost of repairing the things we suspected might be a bit of a problem, and we made an opening offer. We had to go up a bit from that but were still in our comfort zone.

Turns out we got a bargain. The re-commissioning process is nearly complete and we haven't found a single horror story. There is still a question mark over one bit of machinery but the cost of replacing that (if it becomes necessary, which I doubt) turns out to be less than our engineer thought. But spending a full day on board at the dock, plus a proper sea trial (nearly 6 hours, we ran every piece of equipment on the boat, anchored, lifted the tender off and ran that, etc. etc.), plus a lift-out and hull survey on a boat with live hour meters, all with an engineer who definitely did not have rose-tinted spectacles, is a heck of a big difference to what I think is being proposed here.

OTOH we were spending over 7 times as much as Petem, and that does make a difference.

 

[petem]

Thanks all. Just had a very fair quote from Jim Pritchard who will also cover engines / drives and take oil samples. So I will hopefully proceed on that basis.

 

[Whitelighter]

Thanks all. Just had a very fair quote from Jim Pritchard who will also cover engines / drives and take oil samples. So I will hopefully proceed on that basis.

whoop whoop

 

[MapisM]

I don't know where the boat is but if it was Italy...

For some reason, I also had in mind that the boat was in IT - hence the offer in my previous post. But petem explained me that she's not exactly round the corner also for myself...
Anyway, just in case this might be relevant for him, the law you are referring to applies also if the boat is owned by a company (as opposed to a private individual).
And even if I can't be 100% positive, I believe that the Country which would be relevant for this transaction has rules not dissimilar from the IT ones.

Anyway, P, you can't go wrong with Jim - if there's a lemon anywhere on the boat, he won't miss it.
All the very best, and keep us posted! :encouragement:

 

[CharlieAlpha]

+1 for the survey - you will be able to sleep nights - unless you are one of the very lucky ones who can simply dismiss the cost if it all goes wrong.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

FWIW we faced a similar issue this year when buying our Nordhavn 40.

Well done. It sounds like you did everything right and have been rewarded with a sound boat

 

[Greg2]

Some interesting views on the engine hours issue. I am not convinced that lower hours = lower price and without wanting to start the perennial debate many on here will know that low hours is not necessarily a good thing. Quite the contrary in fact. Maybe it makes a difference in sectors of the market that are outside my experience (i.e. larger/more expensive boats or the Med market) but apart from the odd broker chancing their arm with the 'low hours' spin I haven't seen it make much of a difference. Maybe it comes into play if you are talking 500 v 5,000 hours but otherwise I am doubtful that it makes a significant difference.

I understand Pete' s caution but failed VP hours meters is a common problem and boats still sell. Our last boat had the same issue and I ended up putting two new tachos on. A full explanation of the history and reason for the tachos to the buyer and it was not a big deal. Okay, so he had seen the boat and knew about the work I had done but the point is the boat sold and the buyer knew that at some point he would be selling it.

From the posts in this tread it sounds like the boat is a bit of a bargain, which it might not be if it came with a fully verified and gift wrapped history. My tuppence worth would be do due diligence with both survey/trials and working out some sensible worst case scenarios and if you are satisfied take a punt.

Easy for me to say though

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Some interesting views on the engine hours issue. I am not convinced that lower hours = lower price

I've bought quite a number of used boats over the years both in the UK and Europe and as far as I'm concerned, all things being equal in terms of specification, a high hours boat is always worth less than a low hours. Yes I accept that regular use is probably better for the engines but at the same time in all probability a 1000hr engine is nearer the end of its wear life than a 500hr one. And that isn't the only issue. High engine hours also implies more use of all the other equipment on board, generators, pumps, winches, domestic equipment, aircon etc etc and that means that all that equipment is nearer the end of its life too. Then generally speaking a high hours boat will show it on the inside in terms of wear on soft furnishings and woodwork and on the outside in terms of wear on grp and teak. Yes I'm sure there are high hours boats around which have been kept pristine by fastidious owners and vice versa of course but generally high hours boats are worth less.

 

[petem]

High engine hours also implies more use of all the other equipment on board, generators, pumps, winches, domestic equipment, aircon etc etc and that means that all that equipment is nearer the end of its life too. Then generally speaking a high hours boat will show it on the inside in terms of wear on soft furnishings and woodwork and on the outside in terms of wear on grp and teak. Yes I'm sure there are high hours boats around which have been kept pristine by fastidious owners and vice versa of course but generally high hours boats are worth less.

But high hours doesn't particularly relate to high wear on the rest of the boat. There must be many owners who spend weeks on board and hardly go anywhere. They're still using the A/C, cooker, fridges and weating out the carpet. Conversely there are owners who don't spend long periods on board but like to take the boat out of the marina.

Personally, I think the sweet spot for a sports cruiser is 50-75 hours a year.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

But high hours doesn't particularly relate to high wear on the rest of the boat. There must be many owners who spend weeks on board and hardly go anywhere. They're still using the A/C, cooker, fridges and weating out the carpet. Conversely there are owners who don't spend long periods on board but like to take the boat out of the marina.

As I said there are bound to be exceptions to the rule but I've looked at enough boats over the years to say that, generally speaking, high hours is reflected in the general condition of the boat

To anyone who disagrees I ask this question. If you were faced with 2 boats of the same model and same age, one having 500hrs and the other with 1000hrs, both in exactly the same condition and with the same spec, would you pay the same for either boat? If yes, would you pay the same if it was 500 v 1500hrs or 500 v 2000hrs and so on? Where would be the point at which you'd pay less and why?

 

[jfm]

I agree Deleted User

 

[scubaman]

As I said there are bound to be exceptions to the rule but I've looked at enough boats over the years to say that, generally speaking, high hours is reflected in the general condition of the boat

To anyone who disagrees I ask this question. If you were faced with 2 boats of the same model and same age, one having 500hrs and the other with 1000hrs, both in exactly the same condition and with the same spec, would you pay the same for either boat? If yes, would you pay the same if it was 500 v 1500hrs or 500 v 2000hrs and so on? Where would be the point at which you'd pay less and why?

And further, if both the 500 hr and the 1000 hr boats were priced exactly the same, there's no doubt which one sells first.

Irrational as it may be, the engine hours are among the first things mentioned on the spec sheets of used boats. They do matter to buyers and tbh they have mattered to me when buying a boat. A difference of lot less than 500 hrs has become an important factor when deciding between this boat and the next. 500 hrs is easily 5 years worth of cruising, after all.

For me it is also in the back of my mind when pootling.