Thoughts on the Figaro Beneteau III

[wotayottie]

I also can't work out how the foil is going to maximise RM at the right time, which is either going upwind or when you're crashed out and boatspeed is low.

You have three factors dont you - the hull shape, the keel and its bulb, and the foils. When boat speed is low going upwind, the heeling moment will tend to be low too and the main righting effect will be the hull shape and the keel leverage. As speed increases the foils start to add righting moment to that of the keel and hull but with increased speed comes increased heeling moment. Likely the designers will have reduced keel weight because the foils help with righting moment. It will all be a trade off but presumably the designer has done his sums allowing for the extra drag of the foils.

But lighter, newer, boats designed from the off to be A-Sail boats are simply faster downwind when sailing angles with a large A-sail than they ever would be sailing deep with a smaller Sym kite.

Why would the sym kite always be smaller?

I sail a boat thats not remotely fast enough to benefit from an asymetric and sailing angles . But leaving aside the boats that are so fast they effectively beat all the time, I have often wondered if a hull that was light enough to fly an asymetic and benefit from sailing angles would be any faster than the same hull sailing dead downwind with a big sym spinny. Say something like a J109 -m if that could be rigged with a sym spinny and sail dead down wind, why would it be slower to the mark than its asymetrically rigged sisters?

 

[Keen_Ed]

The forward winches do jib sheets and halyards. Aft do runners and probably kite sheets as well (*). There will be plenty of clever systems for swapping during gybes etc.

* Just seen that of course, the jib sheets are set up to be cross winched.

 

[flaming]

Why would the sym kite always be smaller?

Space basically. A Sym kite flies off a pole 6 feet or so off the deck. An A-sail flies off a pole at deck level. And the deck level pole extends a lot further than the conventional pole. For example the J109 class kite is about 120sqm. Our Sym (on a boat that is about 6 inches longer) is 99sqm.

I sail a boat thats not remotely fast enough to benefit from an asymetric and sailing angles . But leaving aside the boats that are so fast they effectively beat all the time, I have often wondered if a hull that was light enough to fly an asymetic and benefit from sailing angles would be any faster than the same hull sailing dead downwind with a big sym spinny. Say something like a J109 -m if that could be rigged with a sym spinny and sail dead down wind, why would it be slower to the mark than its asymetrically rigged sisters?

Actually in the case of the J109, the sym kite would very definitely be faster on a ww/lw track in medium - strong winds. Simply because the hull doesn't plane, so once you're at hull speed pointing at the mark is the way to go.
Something like the Fig though, that does plane, will be a lot, lot faster sailing angles.

 

[lw395]

....



Why would the sym kite always be smaller?
.....?

Also a sym kite is generally less efficient, as the leach shape is a compromise. So the heeling moment is bigger per sq m as soon as it's off a dead run.
Sailing 'angles' almost always pays. The question is more 'when does it pay to sail a big enough angle that the spi tack can be on the centreline?'
Sometimes the optimum angle is much smaller, it depends on the true wind/apparent wind/boat speed vector triangle and how that changes with wind speed.
If you are reaching off at 45 degrees, you have 41% more distance to sail, to go >41% faster generally means planing.
But not all downwind legs are true runs.
If the course is 20deg off downwind, the a-sail may do well even in light air by virtue of sheer area and lower (sail) drag enabling the boat speed to come up and get the apparent forwards.

It doesn't always work, which is why in some slow asy dinghies e,g, RS200, what you really want to do in light air is goosewing the kite.

 

[flaming]

Here is a new video showing lots and lots of detail:
https://www.facebook.com/yachtingworldmagazine/videos/1488750617874872/

I still have lots of questions about this boat design.
The first winch, right in front of the skipper, controls the running backstay? Should this be the most accessible winch?

Yes, mast bend will be a big control on these boats. On similar boats it's often the first step to de-powering, even before the mainsheet or traveller. Suspect that will be the case here.

The next winch, just a foot forward, controls the halyards? Is it necessary that this be so close to the skipper?
Where is the jib sheet winch? This is the winch I use most often.

As KE says, forward winches will do both jib sheets and halyards. I think I read somewhere that the main halyard at least is on a lock, so adjusting tension using a downhaul is a lot easier, and may not even need a winch.

There is essentially no bunk inside. Sure, a bean bag is fine while racing, but what about the days before and after each race?
Lots of other questions too.

Bigger bean bag that follows in the support van. Or a hotel.

 

[Foolish Muse]

You never know, I might be right!

It's sure going to be interesting when we finally get film of these in real conditions. I haven't heard but are they making a complete switch from the II to the III at one time? Or will there be races with IIs and IIIs racing at the same time, if in different classes? That's what I'd really like to see.

 

[Keen_Ed]

All boats released to owners at the end of next year. So 2017 in Fig 2s, 2018 in 3s.

http://www.yachtingmonthly.com/news/beneteau-announces-production-foiling-monohull-54366

 

[Foolish Muse]

I'm just waiting for a whole bunch of II's to be on sale, real cheap.

 

[Keen_Ed]

https://youtu.be/xpFgrLCV-bc

https://youtu.be/W_eS8AW6Trc

 

[Foolish Muse]

Nice videos, but I'd swear they are going out of their way to NOT show us how the foil is working or any of the other features of the boat.

 

[flaming]

https://youtu.be/xpFgrLCV-bc

https://youtu.be/W_eS8AW6Trc

Speeds of 12-13 in 20kts of wind and pushing 15-18 in 25kts. Doesn't look like they're especially high either.

Pretty decent I think.

 

[Foolish Muse]

The reason why I want a better explanation of the foil is specifically because of the gentleman's statement that the foil replaces water ballast in the II. Water ballast is most important when beating into the wind and we want to keep the boat upright so the keel drops down as close to vertical as possible. This means the least amount of leeway and the best pointing. But beating into the wind is the slowest point of sail for the boat.

The effectiveness of any foil is very directly related to the speed of the boat. Lift increases with the speed squared. A 10 metre boat is not going to be particularly fast when beating (compared to an IMOCA 60) so the foil will have small effect at the low speed. My question is will the foil really replace water ballast when beating - exactly when it is needed most?

 

[flaming]

The reason why I want a better explanation of the foil is specifically because of the gentleman's statement that the foil replaces water ballast in the II. Water ballast is most important when beating into the wind and we want to keep the boat upright so the keel drops down as close to vertical as possible. This means the least amount of leeway and the best pointing. But beating into the wind is the slowest point of sail for the boat.

The effectiveness of any foil is very directly related to the speed of the boat. Lift increases with the speed squared. A 10 metre boat is not going to be particularly fast when beating (compared to an IMOCA 60) so the foil will have small effect at the low speed. My question is will the foil really replace water ballast when beating - exactly when it is needed most?

Some slightly outdated thinking there FM.

With boats that are supposed to plane sailing angles downwind the ballast, whether human, water, canting keel or foil is required in a way that it simply isn't on a boat such as yours (or the one I sail) who sail downwind by poling back. Have a look at video of TP52s etc sailing downwind. Those guys are still hiking. And additionally, you will see the ballast (of the human kind) moving aft when A-sail boats are sending it down wind. Water ballast doesn't have the ability to move aft, whereas a foil should be able to help keep the nose up and prevent it from nosediving, as the now famous nose dive video of a Fig2.

These boats are of course OD, so they don't really care that they're not as quick as possible upwind. Just so long as they are easy(ish) on the skipper and generate fantastic images downwind for the sponsors.

They should also be a lot, lot faster on a reach. If you look at that video, notice how high they are carrying that white kite. That seems very shy for what looks like a breezy day and no weight on the rail. And the faster it goes the more stability it has.... Should make for some great video.

I was a sceptic, but the videos have gone a long way to selling me on the concept.... I want a go now...

 

[Foolish Muse]

And here I thought the goal of the new boat was to be faster on all points of sail. I just have a nagging feeling that the II's will point much higher than the III's on a beat and point much lower than the III's on a deep run. And the extra ballast of the II's is a godsend in the rough waters / high winds where they sail. But I'm more than happy to be proven wrong on all of my questions.

I've given a lot of thought to my perfect boat design and it would be a canting keel to move weight to windward, dagger boards to point the boat like a dart rather than a crab, and DSS foils for reaches and runs. Lots of moving parts but boy would it be fast.

 

[flaming]

Figaro 3's Main dimensions
Length overall 10.85 m
Hull length 9.75 m
Waterline length 9 m
Beam (width) 3.47 m
Waterline beam (width) 2.5 m
Draft 2.5 m
Light displacement 2900 kg
Ballast weight 1100 kg
Figaro 3's Rig and sails
Upwind sail area 70 sqm
Downwind sail area 144.5 sqm
Mainsail area 39.5 sqm
Jib area 30.5 sqm
Asymetric spinnaker area 105 sqm
Rigging type Sloop Marconi 9/10
Rotating spars No
Mast position Deck stepped mast
Spars Mast in Carbon fiber and boom in Aluminum

Figaro 2's Main dimensions
Length overall 10.15 m
Hull length 10.11 m
Waterline length 9.82 m
Beam (width) 3.43 m
Waterline beam (width) 2.5 m
Draft 2.15 m
Mast height from DWL 15.68 m
Light displacement 3030 kg
Maximum displacement 3600 kg
Ballast weight 1100 kg
Ballast type Cast iron fin with lead bulb
Water ballast Lateral water ballasts
Water ballast capacity 2 x 220 liters
Figaro 2's Rig and sails
Upwind sail area 68 sqm
Downwind sail area 123 sqm
Mainsail area 38 sqm
Genoa area 30 sqm
Symetric spinnaker area 85 sqm
Rigging type Sloop Marconi 7/8
Mast position Deck stepped mast
Spars Mast in Carbon fiber and boom in Aluminum

So the F3 sets more sail area on a lighter platform.

And the water ballast in the 2 is only 220 kg, or basically 3 people sat on the rail. That's not very much...

I'm not sure the 3 will be slower upwind, especially as the 2 is a notoriously average upwind performer.

 

[flaming]

I've given a lot of thought to my perfect boat design and it would be a canting keel to move weight to windward, dagger boards to point the boat like a dart rather than a crab, and DSS foils for reaches and runs. Lots of moving parts but boy would it be fast.

They built it.

https://www.maverick49.com/

 

[Foolish Muse]

They built it.

I forgot to specify 30'-35' and a symmetrical spinnaker. I thought these would just be assumed.

 

[Keen_Ed]

https://www.shawyachtdesign.com/Performance-keelboats/Shaw-11-inshore/

https://www.shawyachtdesign.com/Performance-keelboats/Shaw-10/

No DSS though.

 

[Foolish Muse]

Nice boats for a crew and a neat canting keel, but horrible designs for singlehanding. Massive cockpits, running backstays and wheels instead of tillers.

No one yet builds what I have in my imagination. I'm like a kid drawing jet airplanes with guns firing full blast. But I'm happy just to settle for a Figaro II when they go on sale next year.

 

[flaming]

I forgot to specify 30'-35' and a symmetrical spinnaker. I thought these would just be assumed.

If you spec a hull and appendages like that you'll have to have an a sail. S sail just won't work.