Muddy32
Member
w/l are the bane. -How many of those who go cruising deliberately set off to beat upwind - for fun?
The return of the cruiser racer....?
- Thread starter flaming
- Start date
flaming
Well-known member
They do give the best racing though... You ran some pretty good ones yourself I seem to recall!
Muddy32
Member
Yes and had a lovely Reach across Lyme bay to run the Match Racing at Portland-- yes - more w/l courses- 38 races I think - a bit boring for me!!
Muddy32
Member
Yes and had a lovely Reach across Lyme bay to run the Match Racing at Portland-- yes - more w/l courses- 38 races I think - a bit boring for me!!
flaming
Well-known member
60 mile reach....? A bit boring for me....
The other problem with reaching legs in the context of this discussion is cost.
For example... At Dartmouth this year there was a race with decent breeze... Just the 1 if I recall... And we had a great beat and set off down the reaching leg with the J112e and the Sunfast 3600 that owed us time. The reach mark wasn't quite perfectly aligned, especially as we were going to the shorter ww mark, so the first leg was too tight for us to fly a kite. However the J and the Sunfast hoisted their code zeros, and that was game over for that race really.
The more wind angles you put into an inshore race the more sails you require the competitors to have to remain competitive. For us to have a code zero would require us to fit a little bowsprit, buy the sail and the furling gear, and upgrade one of the turning blocks at the masthead for a kite halyard to be able to take the luff tension. Since we're an inshore only boat that's a lot of outlay for us to do when the only time we would have flown one all season was that 1 leg of that race.
lw395
Well-known member
Obviously at heart you want to sail planing sportsboats on short w/l courses.
Personally, for my own boat, planing dinghies, level rating on w/l course with waves would be my choice for most weekends.
But sailing boat racing is a broad church.
A lot of people want to do passage races, reaches, gybe marks, some people even dare to race longer than the wind blows from one direction.
Do we want inshore racing to be a separate branch of the sport, or do we want a continuum, where inshore races overlap with passage races, passages races with cross-channels, on to the Fastnet, Round Britain, ARC.... ?
On the whole CHS does a fair job, but no yardstick system, rating or formula will ever be perfect.
I don't think it's right to blame IRC for the lack of people coming into the sport. Rhe sport has evolved in certain directions and people (and their lifestyles) have moved in another.
Personally, for my own boat, planing dinghies, level rating on w/l course with waves would be my choice for most weekends.
But sailing boat racing is a broad church.
A lot of people want to do passage races, reaches, gybe marks, some people even dare to race longer than the wind blows from one direction.
Do we want inshore racing to be a separate branch of the sport, or do we want a continuum, where inshore races overlap with passage races, passages races with cross-channels, on to the Fastnet, Round Britain, ARC.... ?
On the whole CHS does a fair job, but no yardstick system, rating or formula will ever be perfect.
I don't think it's right to blame IRC for the lack of people coming into the sport. Rhe sport has evolved in certain directions and people (and their lifestyles) have moved in another.
TallBuoy
Member
I think I can write Flaming's response to this before he does .....
All the more reason for the agencies that oversee racing to adapt and lead rather than follow the evolution.
lw395
Well-known member
I think I can write Flaming's response to this before he does .....
All the more reason for the agencies that oversee racing to adapt and lead rather than follow the evolution.
In which dystopia, the Royal Ocean Racing Club says, 'sod the Fastnet, I need to be home for Strictly'?
wotayottie
New member
Is there a lack of people coming into the sport? Does anyone have any numbers on that? And are we talking about numbers coming into the sport of sailing or into the sport of sail racing?
Much sail racing is club based and one thing I have noticed is the reluctance of younger people to join clubs. In a world where most young people are either time short or money short, those who can afford to sail yachts often just buy a week or three on a med charter rather than the weekly slog of being a club member and having a boat to look after. Certainly what has happened to my offspring and their pals.
I'm a member of three yacht clubs. All three have stable membership but the racing waxes and wanes. This seems particularly to be the case with the really keen racers like Flaming who take their racing very seriously.
awol
Well-known member
Jenny RORC
New member
Do you mean have two different certificates? if so, that is not the case.
The only additional certificate a boat can hold is a Short-Handed certificate which is specifically for 1- or 2-handed classes or races if the boat races in a different configuration than for full crewed races.
flaming
Well-known member
Jen, how many boats do you have that swap configurations between inshore and offshore through a season? For example, how many of the boats that Did both the IRC national championships and the Fastnet this year changed their configuration and re-rated?
Jenny RORC
New member
I don't have numbers, plus people change their sails/configurations for a myriad of reasons. As an estimate for your meaning, ie regular changes, you could count them on two hands.
I have a challenge for you: Define 'inshore' and 'offshore', without leaving loopholes or events that don't fit into either category....
Remember we are not just talking about UK racing and prevailing conditions here, but all sorts of races around the world.
flaming
Well-known member
I don't have numbers, plus people change their sails/configurations for a myriad of reasons. As an estimate for your meaning, ie regular changes, you could count them on two hands.
I have a challenge for you: Define 'inshore' and 'offshore', without leaving loopholes or events that don't fit into either category....
Remember we are not just talking about UK racing and prevailing conditions here, but all sorts of races around the world.
To me inshore is races of less than a couple of hours (intended) duration, usually starting with a windward leg setup from a committee boat and finishing in the same bit of water, if not necessarily exactly the same place. And would be races where the course is changed depending on the wind conditions. Good examples would be the IRC nationals, Dartmouth week, Hamble winter series, Warsash Spring series, Taittinger Regatta. But I think duration would be the key point, as would of course include races that start and finish from a fixed line ashore but are short club races where the course is selected for the wind strength and direction.
Offshore would be races of more than say 4 hours intended duration or which start and finish in different ports. For example I would expect the JOG inshore series to count as an offshore race as they generally last about 4 hours or more and normally finish at a different port to the one they started in. But this is fine, as the course is relatively fixed and depending on wind conditions could suit either a good upwind or good downwind or good reaching boat. RTI should be an offshore event again because the course is fixed.
Cowes week would be an interesting one, I could see an argument for either one, and I think would perhaps depend on the intentions of the course setting team. If their intention is to give mostly ww/lw racing then should categorise as an inshore series, if the intent is to include more reaching legs then class as offshore for rating. But that is the sort of event where I would expect the NOR to state which rating should be used.
Basically by having both ratings available, and being clear about what split of upwind, downwind and reaching they constitute it would be clear to the club organising the racing which type of racing they are trying to run. Let the clubs choose the most suitable for the racing they intend to run, rather than telling the clubs what the rating is suitable for, despite the fact that most inshore racing is ww/lw because it's a lot easier on the race committees to run.
I think if there are currently between 5 and 10 boats changing their certificates twice a year or so to mode the boat from inshore to offfshore, with the associated cost and hassle, there are probably more that would benefit from holding two ratings for different purposes. My argument would be that more offshore specific boats would turn up to events like the IRC nationals if they could do so with an IRC certificate that is optimised for inshore racing without going through the process of changing. I think in many years the certificate deadline for the national champs is before an offshore race. So it is not even possible for a boat that is doing that offshore event to then do the IRC nationals without compromising their rating for either the offshore or the championships. That is not helping participation.
Ingwe
Active member
I don't have numbers, plus people change their sails/configurations for a myriad of reasons. As an estimate for your meaning, ie regular changes, you could count them on two hands.
I have a challenge for you: Define 'inshore' and 'offshore', without leaving loopholes or events that don't fit into either category....
Remember we are not just talking about UK racing and prevailing conditions here, but all sorts of races around the world.
Simple just use the existing World Sailing definitions from the offshore special regs eg for inshore -
"Special Regulations for inshore racing are intended for use in short races, close to shore in relatively warm and protected waters where adequate shelter and/or effective rescue is available all along the course, held in daylight only. "
and then classify every race that requires Cat 4 or higher as offshore.
blade
Member
Don't really understand all the rating systems that have been mentioned in previous posts as I have never raced in the UK. Have been racing here in Spain for a number of years and they use the ORC rating system. Have been racing my own boat for the last 5 years and hopefully have attached page 1 of a 3 page International rating certificate. This has the facility to use different ratings according the course used and whether it is onshore/coastal or offshore. Can't claim to have much understanding of it but does appear to work. Perhaps Flaming can understand the data presented on the certificate.
wotayottie
New member
Well thats odd. Early last week I phoned the ratings office to ask about just this issue and was told that a boat could have different ratings for different sail rigs. I was even told the extra cost for having a second rating. In fact I'm pretty sure that Kerenza of this forum has two certificates for two different sail sets.
mrming
Well-known member
You can flip between two configurations reasonably quickly by applying for an updated cert and paying for expedited, but you can’t hold more than one crewed IRC rating at one time.
Kerenza
Member
Only one certificate at a time, I'm afraid.
Gets a bit expensive too....
Gets a bit expensive too....
wotayottie
New member
That explains the misunderstanding. Effectively you can have two or more different ratings for different sail set ups but you can only use one at once and to go from one to the other you have to pay the RORC rather than just take another out of the chart table drawer. Effectively this answers Flamings wish in post 125 albeit expensively.