The return of the cruiser racer....?

[flaming]

Rorc are strong believers in one number systems, and I doubt very much they would ever seriously think about a multiple number for their own rating system. Horses for courses/every dog has his day.

What about a Fastnet which is a long beat out to the rock and a run back? One big windward

But offshore everyone understands that it's horses for courses. And the difference is that there is a chance of a course suiting something like a J/88 and it winning. Currently it is well known that a ww/lw track puts boats such as the 88 (Which is hardly extreme) at a massive disadvantage.

Currently RORC tell us that the rating is balanced for 1/3 beating, 1/3 reaching and 1/3 running. And offshore that seems like a sensible compromise for a 1 number system. All they'd have to do would be to create an inshore rating that was 2/3 beating and 1/3 running and hey presto we could see boats like the J88 or the Far east28 stand a chance of winning a race. And that might just get designers and buyers interested again.
Can't hurt the existing fleet either, as if RORC's numbers are right then they're not disadvantaged, just not massively favoured either.

The more I think about it, the more I like it...

 

[TallBuoy]

But offshore everyone understands that it's horses for courses. And the difference is that there is a chance of a course suiting something like a J/88 and it winning. Currently it is well known that a ww/lw track puts boats such as the 88 (Which is hardly extreme) at a massive disadvantage.

Currently RORC tell us that the rating is balanced for 1/3 beating, 1/3 reaching and 1/3 running. And offshore that seems like a sensible compromise for a 1 number system. All they'd have to do would be to create an inshore rating that was 2/3 beating and 1/3 running and hey presto we could see boats like the J88 or the Far east28 stand a chance of winning a race. And that might just get designers and buyers interested again.
Can't hurt the existing fleet either, as if RORC's numbers are right then they're not disadvantaged, just not massively favoured either.

The more I think about it, the more I like it...

Now there's an idea.

As many courses other than a true W/L course involve a reach to some degree, the bias doesn't need to be 2/3 beat 1/3 run. I don't know how the secret spreadsheet works (because its a secret!) but maybe it could be 60% beat, 30% run, 10% reach for example, or any other compromise which makes it more relevant.

 

[markhomer]

Now there's an idea.

As many courses other than a true W/L course involve a reach to some degree, the bias doesn't need to be 2/3 beat 1/3 run. I don't know how the secret spreadsheet works (because its a secret!) but maybe it could be 60% beat, 30% run, 10% reach for example, or any other compromise which makes it more relevant.

Taking this further , a lot of irc racing i see is over windward leeward courses , if the ratio formula is true above , surely irc can run a quick win lee calculated rating and put that on the cert , could easily be done and reflect the racing that a big proportion of irc racers are actually doing , on other hand it may be a load of tosh . Nearly all irc run in scotland where i am is run on win lee courses .

However i will look into this , im an irc measurer and its the only reason i have an irc rating , i race win lees in a not very sporty sportsboat and get hammered . Even local handicap system is fairer to me .

 

[wotayottie]

But offshore everyone understands that it's horses for courses. And the difference is that there is a chance of a course suiting something like a J/88 and it winning. Currently it is well known that a ww/lw track puts boats such as the 88 (Which is hardly extreme) at a massive disadvantage.

Currently RORC tell us that the rating is balanced for 1/3 beating, 1/3 reaching and 1/3 running. And offshore that seems like a sensible compromise for a 1 number system. All they'd have to do would be to create an inshore rating that was 2/3 beating and 1/3 running and hey presto we could see boats like the J88 or the Far east28 stand a chance of winning a race. And that might just get designers and buyers interested again.
Can't hurt the existing fleet either, as if RORC's numbers are right then they're not disadvantaged, just not massively favoured either.

The more I think about it, the more I like it...

That sounds like a very good idea for the typical windward leeward course. Comparing the time beating with the time surfing downwind, it could even make sense to be 60/40 beating running. Certainly if the RORC split really is 1/3 each I can see the point you are making.

 

[flaming]

Now there's an idea.

As many courses other than a true W/L course involve a reach to some degree, the bias doesn't need to be 2/3 beat 1/3 run. I don't know how the secret spreadsheet works (because its a secret!) but maybe it could be 60% beat, 30% run, 10% reach for example, or any other compromise which makes it more relevant.

Another thing worth mentioning is that splitting out the ratings into inshore and offshore would possibly have other benefits. Quite a lot of offshore orientated boats do almost no inshore racing because they aren't competitive with their offshore IRC rating. For example they may have chosen to pay the rating penalty for extra kites that they wouldn't want to sail with round the cans, or they have a genoa that they wouldn't use on a ww/lw, or a supersize kite, or any number of things that make sense when you're going offshore but don't get used round the cans.
Allow those boats to also have an inshore rating with only 3 kites, or without the genoa and suddenly a little bit of round the cans stuff might be worth doing.

 

[Keen_Ed]

Or you have RORC’s recommended solution - don’t just run windward/leewards. Include round the cans too.

 

[flaming]

Or you have RORC’s recommended solution - don’t just run windward/leewards. Include round the cans too.

2 problems with that.

1. That's not what the sailors want to do.
2. Even if you do that you never get close to 1/3, 1/3, 1/3 on an inshore course.

 

[wotayottie]

Another thing worth mentioning is that splitting out the ratings into inshore and offshore would possibly have other benefits. Quite a lot of offshore orientated boats do almost no inshore racing because they aren't competitive with their offshore IRC rating. For example they may have chosen to pay the rating penalty for extra kites that they wouldn't want to sail with round the cans, or they have a genoa that they wouldn't use on a ww/lw, or a supersize kite, or any number of things that make sense when you're going offshore but don't get used round the cans.
Allow those boats to also have an inshore rating with only 3 kites, or without the genoa and suddenly a little bit of round the cans stuff might be worth doing.

according to RORC earlier this week you can do that sort of thing now.

 

[Chris 249]

Sorry but wrong again. When PY was properly operated , adjustments depended on the results of the previous race so you ended up with several impalas on different handicaps. PY was performance based.

We never had more than one Impala in our PY races but we did have two Sigma 33 and they sailed off very different handicaps because one was badly sailed and the other was an ex IRC sailor of some capability. In the end their handicaps were 901 and 1012 respectively and the slow boat still couldnt sail to its number.

Not according to the way everyone else used it, or the way the book I have says it was used for yachts, or in PY listings I have which go back to 1963.

Here's the current link to adjustment of PY - it does not refer to adjusting individual boats, but classes as a whole.

 

[Kerenza]

Well I've still got the boats old ims certificates, so I'm sorted.

 

[lw395]

Not according to the way everyone else used it, or the way the book I have says it was used for yachts, or in PY listings I have which go back to 1963.

Here's the current link to adjustment of PY - it does not refer to adjusting individual boats, but classes as a whole.

That's what dinghies do, and what most yacht clubs used to do AFAIK.
But some clubs also do/did personal handicaps based on PY. Sometimes dual scored to get an improver's cup or something.
I'm not sure how that works when the same yacht entered by the same owner often has a different crew or even helm in the same series?

Other clubs also adjusted a class PY for such things as an individual boat not carrying a kite, or having a fixed prop etc. Or made up PY's for non-class boats by adjusting the PY for a boat that looked a bit similar.

 

[Yacht Yogi]

I also agree that having two different "IRC Ratings" for Offshore or Inshore would be a great idea. I spent quite some effort (and money) sorting out my J/109's rating ahead of the Fastnet, dropping it to 1.004 to get just inside the Class 3 cut-off. This also included 4 spinnakers to give options for a wide range of wind angles and conditions. However, I know that I would be carrying a penalty for the extra spinnaker in an inshore race and that I could get more upwind speed in the generally lighter inshore winds by using a bigger head-sail. This puts me at a bit of a disadvantage against an "inshore optimised" boat. Having the Inshore/Offshore double rating would allow me to set up the boat to be more equally competitive against people who only do inshore races while still allowing me to maximise offshore performance when needed.

Deciding whether an event is to be classed as Inshore or Offshore just needs to be done by the organisers (perhaps following a RORC guideline) and posted in the Notice of Race. Generally I would think that if the upwind mark is selected on the race day taking into account actual wind then it uses the Inshore rating and if it's something fixed like the Eddystone Lighthouse or Nab Tower then it uses the Offshore rating.

 

[dunedin]

2 problems with that.

1. That's not what the sailors want to do.
2. Even if you do that you never get close to 1/3, 1/3, 1/3 on an inshore course.

Are you sure the sailors only want Windward / Leeward courses? I was about to say that the boring Windward / Leeward format is one additional reason why I never raced my previous racer/cruiser.

 

[lpdsn]

Are you sure the sailors only want Windward / Leeward courses? I was about to say that the boring Windward / Leeward format is one additional reason why I never raced my previous racer/cruiser.

Reaches become a bit of a precession with minimal chances of overtaking unless the boat to be overtaken is significantly slower.

 

[wotayottie]

Not according to the way everyone else used it, or the way the book I have says it was used for yachts, or in PY listings I have which go back to 1963.

Here's the current link to adjustment of PY - it does not refer to adjusting individual boats, but classes as a whole.

This https://www.dropbox.com/s/u4m28h5lxpmr9rc/PY%20handicap%20adjustments.pdf?dl=0 link is to the official RYA document from 2006. It makes it clear in para 9 in particular that handicaps can be adjusted race to race for individual boats and it gives specific adjustments for individual boats, not classes, for such thibngs as props and headsail sizes and spinny / no spinny etc. Includes allowance for crew skill factor.

 

[flaming]

Or you have RORC’s recommended solution - don’t just run windward/leewards. Include round the cans too.

To further add... RORC themselves run an IRC national championships. It was 8 races long this year. 3 per day Friday and Saturday, 2 on Sunday. First 2 on Friday and Saturday, and both on Sunday were ww/lw courses around laid marks. 3rd race on Friday and Saturday had some reaching in. You were not going to be competitive in that event with anything other than a boat optimised for ww/lw.

 

[BabySharkDooDooDooDooDoo]

This https://www.dropbox.com/s/u4m28h5lxpmr9rc/PY%20handicap%20adjustments.pdf?dl=0 link is to the official RYA document from 2006. It makes it clear in para 9 in particular that handicaps can be adjusted race to race for individual boats and it gives specific adjustments for individual boats, not classes, for such thibngs as props and headsail sizes and spinny / no spinny etc. Includes allowance for crew skill factor.

Unless I am missing something I can't see anything in that document suggesting that individual boats should be reviewed separately leading to different numbers for the same class.

 

[doug748]

That's what dinghies do, and what most yacht clubs used to do AFAIK.
But some clubs also do/did personal handicaps based on PY. Sometimes dual scored to get an improver's cup or something.
I'm not sure how that works when the same yacht entered by the same owner often has a different crew or even helm in the same series?

Other clubs also adjusted a class PY for such things as an individual boat not carrying a kite, or having a fixed prop etc. Or made up PY's for non-class boats by adjusting the PY for a boat that looked a bit similar.

This used to happen in Plymouth, it was called the local handicapping factor, I think. Apart from juggling the figures differently, it was so similar to NHC that I wondered what all the fuss was about.

Primary yardsticks were also used as a best guess for boats new to the fleet. I was once the recipient of the handicap for a UK Folkboat, whilst sailing a Marieholm IF Boat. This was rapidly amended when we lapped half the fleet.

I don't think anyone worried too much about skippers or crews in the ragged trouser divisions.

 

[Chris 249]

Unless I am missing something I can't see anything in that document suggesting that individual boats should be reviewed separately leading to different numbers for the same class.

Yep, the whole point of PY was that boats that were physically the same get the same PY.

 

[Muddy32]

The Royal Dartmouth Regatta tries, and offers racing for all three [indeed 4 groups]. Numbers are slowly increasing but the problem for us, is to get sufficient "sports boats" to come. Launching facilities, moorings/marinas and accommodation ashore all play a part.

The answer of course is that you need multiple fleets - or classes - broken down by more than simply IRC. So put planing boats up against planing boats; those with expensive sails against others who race that way and leave a class for cruisers who are carrying a normal cruising inventory etc.