The return of the cruiser racer....?

[wotayottie]

I think you're making my point for me! You as a cruising man wouldn't want to cruise the current offering of cruiser racers. So what we have are boats that only really have one purpose - to race but because they have to equipped to cruise are much heavier and more expensive than they could be.
In the past the argument has been that to get bigger fleets you need to encourage dual use boats. Looking at the current state of the fleets, and the boats that are actually available to buy we see that those days are over. The proportion of boats who cruise as well as race is very low.

Whether or not the collapse in fleet numbers can be blamed on RORC's policy of encouraging CRs is moot. RORC are the ones with the tools to make changes to what is competitive.

If there were still big fleets of CRs we wouldn't be having this debate because racing in big fleets is fun.

My argument is that without change this sector is doomed. And the smaller boats are suffering too... sure fleets are holding up at the moment, but other than the J97, can anyone name a CR available to buy today that rates less than 1.000?

So maybe it's time to try something different?

We do have numbers of cruiser racers racing and whats more without the spending race referred to above. Its that unmentionable system - NHC. I know that it isnt popular amongst those who race IRC but it is popular in the mixed cruiser fleets. This Sunday we will get 18 boats sailing NHC against a maximum of 10IRC. By the end of the series the corrected times will be within a few seconds of each other so its well worth while fighting for that very last bit of performance. The top 3 boats range from .91 to .98 and include a Sigma 35 and a Comfortina 32.

But I know that I am flogging a dead horse here. The sad thing is that IRC is declining but participants just wont look at the alternative.

I don't mind not winning too much. I do mind not winning a sailing race because it has been turned into something completely different, which is a spending race. And as you say, if we do turn up and do our best with a minimalist effort, there are people who are likely to be unpleasant about it - probably simply as a reflection of the same culture that says "take your Elan 310 away from our regatta"..

Never sailed a big regatta other than classics. Do you really get that sort of reaction to your Elan?

In a way I'm making the same sort of point as Flaming, which is that we could perhaps be doing a better job of reducing costs. He wants bare interiors, I would like an allowance for a smaller sail wardrobe and also for encouragement for boats smaller than mine (which IRC provides, but some other organisations do not).

I also fit the description in your last paragraph, I hope. Over the winter series we've had a skeleton crew but still count national titles in four different classes (all but one of them against Olympic team members) and we know how we rate against the top guys nationally in boats in our bracket when we're all sailing one designs. If we did the glamour regattas we'd probably end up with reinforcements who have won more than one worlds - but it appears that we'd still have no hope without spending $40,000 more in sails. I don't see that as healthy or necessary for the sport.

EDIT - I should add that I do appreciate the fact that IRC gives an allowance for just carrying a furling jib+ heavy weather jib, and that may make us competitive without having to fill the boat with jibs and a Code Zero. The problem is that it can't work with a short overlap rig.

Whilstever you have wealthy men wanting to win, a handicap like IRC will continue to be a spending race. In a way you see the same sort of issue in F1. Despite ever more prescriptive technical regs limiting what teams can do, you get ever more money thrown at the tiny bits left that can make a difference. One design is one partial answer, though I do wonder how good controls can ever be. Performance based handicaps are the other answer since if spending £20k on new sails only gives an advantage for a couple of races, even the rich think twice.

 

[savageseadog]

Maybe IRC aka CHS has run its course for small boats?
Do all rating rules have a shelf life?
When it was created, a fast CR under 35ft meant something very much like a Sigma 33.

But I think nobody's taken up on my other point, that it's very hard to have a rating system that works with disparate boats over a range of conditions.

If you take two boats, and one of them planes fast down wind above F4 and the other doesn't, the planing boat will be going 50% faster when conditions suit it. On a W/L it might knock 5% off its elapsed time.
When conditions don't suit it, it will not.
So it becomes very difficult to have a rating that's good for both offshore and short-circuit, strong winds and light.

I suspect fiddling with the handicap system will only make it worse?

The worst possible outcome would be encouraging a new genre of boats at the expense of making the existing fleet obsolete.

It's the reason why a racing fleet is broken up into classes. There's no doubt though that some existing boats benefit from from favourable handicaps, in many cases it's accidental. New boats can be optimised to work well under IRC of course.

 

[lw395]

It's the reason why a racing fleet is broken up into classes. There's no doubt though that some existing boats benefit from from favourable handicaps, in many cases it's accidental. New boats can be optimised to work well under IRC of course.

It's the reason sportsboats got kicked out of mainstream IRC and later fizzled out.
How many regattas have separate IRC classes for bowsprit boats?

 

[lw395]

But the existing fleet is rapidly going to stop sailing anyway - if you look at the RORC inshore or offshore results and take out the SunFasts and JPK's (which were never primarily designed for racing inshore) there are no other boats there in class three or four that were designed in the last 15 years so unless we start building more 30 to 35 foot boats now there will not be any even vaguely serious boats racing inshore in another 10 years time as trying to race 30+ year old boats starts to become very expensive to the point where it would have been cheaper to have a new boat built in the Far East than the amounts that people are currently spending doing up old quarter or half tonner's.

You have to ask why people want to race vintage fraction tonners instead of the other options for their budget.
If the best rcing was always the fastest, we'd be sailing foiling moths or extreme multihulls.

 

[wotayottie]

Todays race was a 3 hour time limit round the nav marks in the bristol channel. Near spring tides and 15/20kn wind with some steep seas thanks to wind over tide at headlands and sand banks. We had 15 nhc out and 8 IRC.

At the finish, the first 5 of the NHC fleet were seperated by 15.8% in corrected time. The first 8 of the NHC fleet were seperated by 8% in corrected time with 5 of those 8 within 2.5 minutes total spread after 2 hours racing. Several were just a few seconds in front of or behind the next boat. No doubt in my mind who had the best racing and in which fleet the last bit of extra effort mattered most. And this is the pattern that repeats every series - after a few races, the racing in NHC is really tight often with just a few seconds in 2 hours deciding the winner.

FWIW we won todays race since I got the start right for the first time in a while and 20kn over the deck with some rough water is just what my boat likes. The boats we were sailing against included a First 31.7, a First 40.1 Comfortina 32, Sigma 35, another Benny First. In short a selection of older cruiser racers. Maybe a bit tatty and old by your stanbdards but cheap to run as a result. So as I suggested above, economic cruiser racing is still happening and with very tight results and lots of competition.

Come and join us!

 

[Kerenza]

Todays race was a 3 hour time limit round the nav marks in the bristol channel. Near spring tides and 15/20kn wind with some steep seas thanks to wind over tide at headlands and sand banks. We had 15 nhc out and 8 IRC.

At the finish, the first 5 of the NHC fleet were seperated by 15.8% in corrected time. The first 8 of the NHC fleet were seperated by 8% in corrected time with 5 of those 8 within 2.5 minutes total spread after 2 hours racing. Several were just a few seconds in front of or behind the next boat. No doubt in my mind who had the best racing and in which fleet the last bit of extra effort mattered most. And this is the pattern that repeats every series - after a few races, the racing in NHC is really tight often with just a few seconds in 2 hours deciding the winner.

FWIW we won todays race since I got the start right for the first time in a while and 20kn over the deck with some rough water is just what my boat likes. The boats we were sailing against included a First 31.7, a First 40.1 Comfortina 32, Sigma 35, another Benny First. In short a selection of older cruiser racers. Maybe a bit tatty and old by your stanbdards but cheap to run as a result. So as I suggested above, economic cruiser racing is still happening and with very tight results and lots of competition.

Come and join us!

apologies if this is a bit parochial.

I was (5th) in the irc fleet and there was certainly every reason to try hard today, and the crew did. And they had a good day out on the water.
I would love to be rated in NHC but the races would be too short to make it worthwhile- as it was we had to anchor for an hour (using our electric windlass and 50m chain while the crew cooked lunch and watched the volvo racing) before we could get to the lock and a further hour to get in. It actually took longer than the race. If I'm not a cruiser racer who is?
The 31.7 is perfectly capable of winning the irc race and the 40.7 beats me every time.
So we won't be joining you but if there was dual scoring you could join us.

 

[Chris 249]

Down here in OZ, nhc-type handicaps have been in very common use for about 130 years and certainly fill a need. However, if they are the only option to race under, it's very demoralising. No matter how hard you try and how good you get, you can still easily be beaten by someone who doesn't try very hard, has a much bigger, newer and faster boat AND finishes well behind, but just happens to be finishing a little closer than usual. There's nothing stopping a TP52 eventually winning on NHC even if it gets beaten over the line every week by a Snapdragon 24.

It's sometimes said that these systems reward consistency, but that's just incorrect as a quick check at events that use dual scoring will show. Take a recent championship in a class I sail in. One boat counted 7 wins from 7 starts, against a fleet including two Olympians including a 2016 gold medal winner. That's consistency that is hard to beat.

The handicap winner counted 29,36,28,36,22,26,27 finishes over the line. They were clearly less consistent than a boat that counted all firsts, which disproves the common claim that these systems reward consistency or a boat that is sailed to its maximum. Clearly the boat that scores all firsts ahead of a gold medallist is more consistent and much closer to its maximum.

Secondly, while the handicap winner improved their finishes it wasn't by much, and of course the crew who were winning just don't have much capacity to improve. They've already won two world titles in the class, they train hard - even for them just to stay at their level they are working much harder than the mid-pack guys need to do to improve dramatically.

This sort of stuff happens all the time. It shows that while NHC systems are good as a way to spread the prizes, if people want to challenge themselves to sail better these systems have major limitations. Secondly as noted earlier it's rather frustrating to beat newer, bigger, faster boats with much better sails across the line and then lose to them just because they always sail poorly and get a big handicap for it.

The last little bit of effort doesn't really matter under NHC style systems. If you don't make much effort your rating will be adjusted to account for your lack of effort. In the end there is no difference between the crew who try really hard and the guys who turn up late with a dirty bottom, don't bother to trim, hike or steer well or to set spinnakers - they just get a bigger handicap later.

NHC can therefore not replace an IRC style handicap for all sailors, and yet not all of us want to race the latest carbon racing machine. Some of us want a system that gives boats an equal chance (as much as possible) no matter what boat and what configuration we sail in. It's a tall order (and as LW395 says, in some conditions some boats will break away and win easily) but it's worth trying.

 

[flaming]

Todays race was a 3 hour time limit round the nav marks in the bristol channel. Near spring tides and 15/20kn wind with some steep seas thanks to wind over tide at headlands and sand banks. We had 15 nhc out and 8 IRC.

At the finish, the first 5 of the NHC fleet were seperated by 15.8% in corrected time. The first 8 of the NHC fleet were seperated by 8% in corrected time with 5 of those 8 within 2.5 minutes total spread after 2 hours racing. Several were just a few seconds in front of or behind the next boat. No doubt in my mind who had the best racing and in which fleet the last bit of extra effort mattered most. And this is the pattern that repeats every series - after a few races, the racing in NHC is really tight often with just a few seconds in 2 hours deciding the winner.

FWIW we won todays race since I got the start right for the first time in a while and 20kn over the deck with some rough water is just what my boat likes. The boats we were sailing against included a First 31.7, a First 40.1 Comfortina 32, Sigma 35, another Benny First. In short a selection of older cruiser racers. Maybe a bit tatty and old by your stanbdards but cheap to run as a result. So as I suggested above, economic cruiser racing is still happening and with very tight results and lots of competition.

Come and join us!

NHC serves a purpose, but if it was put under the pressure of being used to rate boats which are only used for racing (regardless of whether they are CRs or pure racers) then I suspect it would crumble rather rapidly. And golf style handicaps are not popular with people who take racing fairly seriously.

 

[wotayottie]

Sorry to say it Flaming but I reckon there is a sort of snobbery / puritanism amongst IRC sailors. " Doesnt matter if the fleets collapse through disinterest, we are the true racers!".

Maybe thats cruel but there is a lot of hand wringing but no solution in sight

 

[flaming]

Sorry to say it Flaming but I reckon there is a sort of snobbery / puritanism amongst IRC sailors. " Doesnt matter if the fleets collapse through disinterest, we are the true racers!".

Maybe thats cruel but there is a lot of hand wringing but no solution in sight

I don't entirely disagree, but for a solution to be viable it has to actually work. A handicap system is great for entry level racing, and for racing cruisers with varying amount of gear on board etc, but for racing where boat prep is part of the game it doesn't work.

In short, I don't think your analysis of the problem is off, just your solution!

 

[TallBuoy]

So this and Flaming's previous thread have run some distance, and we've been 'round the buoys' several times, and there are a number of issues.

In summary (as I see it):

- Keen racers prefer fixed ratings on the boat, so their individual performances are worthwhile in affecting the result.
- Cruising folk don't want to strip out their boats or spend lots of money to go racing
- Clubs, RORC, and the RYA want to stop the decline in participation, and increase it again
- manufacturers want to sell boats and make a profit
- one design racing is much fairer, easier to manage, and more fun.
- the same issues have been kicking around for years (PYS, NHC, local handicapping etc)

So what is the solution ???

IMHO there needs to be a collective approach, whatever that might be, which takes all stakeholders into account and develops a long term strategy to move the sport forward. Who takes the lead on this? My experience of sitting on an industry based committee tells me it can't be done by volunteers in their spare time.

The simple answer is that there is no simple answer!

 

[bedouin]

The answer of course is that you need multiple fleets - or classes - broken down by more than simply IRC. So put planing boats up against planing boats; those with expensive sails against others who race that way and leave a class for cruisers who are carrying a normal cruising inventory etc.

 

[savageseadog]

Todays race was a 3 hour time limit round the nav marks in the bristol channel. Near spring tides and 15/20kn wind with some steep seas thanks to wind over tide at headlands and sand banks. We had 15 nhc out and 8 IRC.

At the finish, the first 5 of the NHC fleet were seperated by 15.8% in corrected time. The first 8 of the NHC fleet were seperated by 8% in corrected time with 5 of those 8 within 2.5 minutes total spread after 2 hours racing. Several were just a few seconds in front of or behind the next boat. No doubt in my mind who had the best racing and in which fleet the last bit of extra effort mattered most. And this is the pattern that repeats every series - after a few races, the racing in NHC is really tight often with just a few seconds in 2 hours deciding the winner.

FWIW we won todays race since I got the start right for the first time in a while and 20kn over the deck with some rough water is just what my boat likes. The boats we were sailing against included a First 31.7, a First 40.1 Comfortina 32, Sigma 35, another Benny First. In short a selection of older cruiser racers. Maybe a bit tatty and old by your stanbdards but cheap to run as a result. So as I suggested above, economic cruiser racing is still happening and with very tight results and lots of competition.

Come and join us!

Club racing embraces lots of differing boats, often under IRC. There isn't too much at stake and due to the weather over a series different types of boat usually have their day. IRC works probably well enough to be reasonably satisfactory.
The situation with regattas and the more prestigious offshore series and races is rather different. It takes a lot money, time and effort to compete in things like Cork Week, JOG and ISORA and owners get fed up when boats with unfair advantages under handicap ruin the racing.

 

[flaming]

The answer of course is that you need multiple fleets - or classes - broken down by more than simply IRC. So put planing boats up against planing boats; those with expensive sails against others who race that way and leave a class for cruisers who are carrying a normal cruising inventory etc.

In every major event that is literally what happens.

e.g. Cowes has a sportsboat class and a Fast 40 class to separate the planing boats from the non planing. And also has a cruiser class using the ISC rating system. Part of my problem with what IRC has become is that these are actually split for opposite reasons... In that it's practically impossible for small planing boats to win under IRC, but the fast 40s would likely walk away with an IRC class that included them.

A lot of people are starting to ask why only the people who can afford a Fast 40 should get the fun of that type of boat, when a scaled down version would probably be cheaper to buy than an equivalent CR....

IRC has also, for years, published advice to split classes by DLR as well as just the TCC, but entries normally do not make that feasible.

 

[flaming]

So this and Flaming's previous thread have run some distance, and we've been 'round the buoys' several times, and there are a number of issues.

In summary (as I see it):

- Keen racers prefer fixed ratings on the boat, so their individual performances are worthwhile in affecting the result.
- Cruising folk don't want to strip out their boats or spend lots of money to go racing
- Clubs, RORC, and the RYA want to stop the decline in participation, and increase it again
- manufacturers want to sell boats and make a profit
- one design racing is much fairer, easier to manage, and more fun.
- the same issues have been kicking around for years (PYS, NHC, local handicapping etc)

So what is the solution ???

IMHO there needs to be a collective approach, whatever that might be, which takes all stakeholders into account and develops a long term strategy to move the sport forward. Who takes the lead on this? My experience of sitting on an industry based committee tells me it can't be done by volunteers in their spare time.

The simple answer is that there is no simple answer!

Some good questions, but lacking the one that started both my threads!

Which is "Given that IRC encourages good solid CR designs, but these designs are mostly no longer being made by manufacturers, what next?"

 

[wotayottie]

Some good questions, but lacking the one that started both my threads!

Which is "Given that IRC encourages good solid CR designs, but these designs are mostly no longer being made by manufacturers, what next?"

Well thats simple to answer. Race what is available.

- Keen racers prefer fixed ratings on the boat, so their individual performances are worthwhile in affecting the result.

I've heard that said many times and I still think its a load of nonsense. Once a fleet has settled down, the only way you can win in NHC is by individual performance improvement race after race whereas in IRC if you dont have the cash to kit out the boat with all the latest go faster kit you are unlikely to succeed

 

[flaming]

Well thats simple to answer. Race what is available.

Can you name any other equipment sport in the world where the necessary equipment basically isn't available to buy new? Hardly a tactic for encouraging fleet growth is it...?

I've heard that said many times and I still think its a load of nonsense. Once a fleet has settled down, the only way you can win in NHC is by individual performance improvement race after race whereas in IRC if you dont have the cash to kit out the boat with all the latest go faster kit you are unlikely to succeed

But that's what IRC is for - the people who are prepared to kit out the boat to a certain standard of kit. Mostly it's really for people who would love to race OD but who either don't have any OD fleets in their area, or for whatever reason those ODs don't suit them.

I get that you're keen on NHC, and it has its place, but when you're talking about top end racing NHC simply isn't the answer.

 

[wotayottie]

But that's what IRC is for - the people who are prepared to kit out the boat to a certain standard of kit. Mostly it's really for people who would love to race OD but who either don't have any OD fleets in their area, or for whatever reason those ODs don't suit them.

Thats the core problem really - the absence of sensibly priced modern one design fleets. What you really need is a modern design Sigma 33 or Impala, but the racing market is pretty small so major manufacturers dont bother with it. There must be the thick end of 750 boats moored in Cardiff bay yet the fleet racing is maybe 30 at best. If those proportions are reflected elsewhere, you can see why makers like Bav pay lip service only to lower priced race boats

 

[TallBuoy]

Some good questions, but lacking the one that started both my threads!

Which is "Given that IRC encourages good solid CR designs, but these designs are mostly no longer being made by manufacturers, what next?"

I don't know!! Nobody knows !! Who is going to resolve it ??

 

[flaming]

I don't know!! Nobody knows !! Who is going to resolve it ??

I dunno, but maybe a first step could be for the rating office to admit that there is a problem...