The realities of boat buying at the bottom end of the market

[garethep]

I'm contemplating buying myself a boat...I've identified a couple of models that would meet my requirements and the going rate seems to align with my budget of c.£15k.
I've done loads of reading up on the recommended process for buying and all the things to look out for but, at this level, most of the likely options are to be found on the likes of eBay or Facebook marketplace where questions about surveys, vat status or registration just get the email equivalent of a "blank look" from the seller.
So I could look at boats sold by brokers but you are then laying over the odds and I'm not certain there is a huge amount of protection in reality, likewise is £5-600 for a survey really giving much protection over and above what a conciencious DIY inspection would provide.

Noting that, at this price range, the value is really the engine and trailer with a free hull attached, what are the really key things that a chartered engineer with a reasonable experience of messing about in boats should take as imperative and which can safely be "glossed over"

Go gentle on me...I'm new to this

 

[wallacebob]

£15,000 isn’t bottom end of market in my world. Many people buy a doerupper for £150!

 

[Mr Googler]

I wouldn’t say broker brings any protection that you can’t do yourself

Main thing is see a bill of sale showing the current seller is the owner and get a bill of sale if you buy

Survey is tricky. The protection there is avoiding the purchase of a lemon. If a simple boat on a trailer with an outboard….id probably be fine without a sea trail. Something with inboards / outdrives …..I’d get a mechanical survey minimum. Depends on your level on knowledge regards the systems involved really. The cost to repair an outdrive on a 30yr old boat are the same as a 2 year old boat which is where the economy of scale goes wrong.

I’m likely not best to advise though as I’ve bought 3 boats virtually unseen!

 

[oldgit]

I'm contemplating buying myself a boat...I've identified a couple of models that would meet my requirements and the going rate seems to align with my budget of c.£15k.

Go gentle on me...I'm new to this

"So I could look at boats sold by brokers but you are then paying over the odds and I'm not certain there is a huge amount of protection in reality, likewise is £5-600 for a survey really giving much protection over and above what a conciencious DIY inspection would provide."

Buying any motor boat is the best opportunity anyone will ever have to get shafted big time.
Folks usually sell boats for 3 reasons...
They are buying a better/ bigger boat 25%
They are getting out due to age or poverty. 25%
They have finally had enough of tearing up pound notes on a boat long past its sink by date and looking for another gulliable mug to relieve their pain 50%.

Can you tell which is which ?
A friend was in the market for a boat last year around this budget and asked for little advice.
Then ignored all of it.
The boat despite having been looked at by several local marine engineers, who are now curiously hard to contact, it has recently now been taken to yet another company to try to get the vessel to work as it should.
For what the boat cost and the money thrown at it, could have bought the finest example in the country and had change.
Get all the help you can and Caveat Emptor.

 

[Seastoke]

Well Gareth one post in 19 years means you will be looking a while. If you explain what boat trailer and engine we can help.

 

[garethep]

Thanks all,
Trying to take all the points raised.

Yes I get that the market goes lower than this....I also know that I'll spend more on a £150 boat than a £15k one and I don't have the desire to do a full rebuild for the fun if it (one day maybe but not now)
The comment about "various marine engineers who are now hard to contact" rings true.....I am working in the assumption that I will have to fix any problems myself or "write off" the problem item. Which does limit my options

I'd be fairly confident rebuilding a "mechanical" diesel engine if spares available, have no experience at all with stern drives and electronic engines terrifying me mainly because the costs of the various black boxes rather than any principled objection.

The boats I am looking at would either be a hardy pilot or a sunseeker 235 or Mexico. Something like a fairline Sunfury or targa 24 may also be an option.

No philosophical objections to outboards but would rather diesel because getting petrol on the west coast of Scotland is a pain.
Needs to be able to live on a mooring or on a trailer on the drive....the costs of a marina berth would make it unviable

My worry is that, any survey worth the cost will find "insurmountable issues" on any boat and any that doesn't won't have any comeback if they should have done....I'm not certain I would know enough to tell which kind I had commissioned until it was too late.

Would no "Bill of sale" to the current owner be a deal-breaker? I suspect that rules out the vast majority of most of the boats I've spotted.

And yes, I have rather left it a bit long to make my first post

 

[kashurst]

At that price range you are buying a project. All boats need a lot of maintenance. The older boats at lowish prices generally haven't had much proper maintenance in a long time. All the systems and engines are also old, so getting stuff reliable again will be a bit trial and error, patience and some money. Flexible fuel pipes will probably need replacing, drinking water systems will likely have frost damage etc. Engines and drives will need a real service. So have a look on line at the prices of servce parts etc if you see something interesting. And you will need to do the work yourself, otherwise it gets very expensive very fast for not a lot.

The expensive bit in any boat are the engines and drive/gearbox. If that is suspect walk away unless you can rebuild them yourself. Or better just walk away.
The best way to determine a boats engine etc is to trial it properly - as best you can. A lot of these boats are on speed restricted rivers so you can't usually max them out. But if the boat has two engines, you can drive the boat on one engine at time to make it work harder at the speed limit available.

In my experience boats that have been on rivers or lakes age better than boats kept in sea water. But they do go green. (it washes off easily enough) edit: and they have to have a boat safety certificate! Which helps a bit especially with anything running on gas.

The hulls are made of fibreglass which is mostly easy to fix and cheap (ish). Don't buy a boat made from wood.

Surveyors can be a mixed bag. And they all have get out clauses so if they miss something it is still your problem. But if this is your first boat an engine and drive survey is probably a good idea. If you can take someone experienced with you on the trial. As to a full survey. As to the hull, if it floats that's about as good as you need. Anything you find later can be fixed in some way at a budget price. A bit of osmosis can be ground out over winter, washed repeatedly and filled correctly with epoxy in the spring. Spider cracks in gel coat aren't worth fixing if it is your first boat, well not until you have some more experience and some more spider cracks ;-)

Hull damage or superstructure weakness if the fibreglass has a wooden or balsa core - before you go and see anything find out if the hull has balsa cores (French boats) Decks sometimes have wooden cores which can rot so see if the deck is flexing excessively or feels squidgy - it goes down and is slow to come back up.
It should be pretty solid underfoot. Stand a long way back and look down the sides looking for bulges and depressions. It won't be perfect like a car but look for things that are not what the manufacturer has created - if not sure check the other side and see what it looks like in comparison.

You can sound a hull with a small plastic faced mallet. Out of the water tap the hull all over it should be rock hard and make a solid sounding thunk and the hammer bounces off.
Start at the transom where it joins the side of the hull to get a feel for it - that is usually a solid, strong point to give you a reference.
If it sounds soft or muffled there is possibly delamination or internal damage. If you are not sure test the opposite side and see if it sounds the same.

Interior wise, look for something acceptable or learn to use a sewing machine. Furniture reupholstery these days is very expensive. Just check for signs of leaks and bad smells. Leaks are often window frames or vents - again easy to fix but can be tricky to find the real point of entry. A minor leak left unattended can do a lot of superficial damage over time so bear that in mind when you are looking.
Bad smells are usually toilet related. Leaks and old sewage pipes or stagnant water in the bilges from leaks and /or tired plumbing. None of which is difficult to replace just ickky.

You may get lucky and find an old boat with a fastidious owner who will have kept it in good order, but they sell fast so you have to be quick about it.

To summarise the most expensive bits to look at hard are

engines and drives/shaft/gearboxes
fridges - boat fridges are ridiculously expensive for what they are
check out wood cores in superstructure and avoid any boat with balsa or wood core in the hull. (not that common in old boats)
and assume the batteries and battery charger are basically scrap - you may be surprised.
VAT wise - I wouldnt worry, no one is going to ask or investigate at this price point and age.
Proof of ownership - how long have they owned it? If no bill of sale, any old photos etc of trips out? If it has been someones pride and joy you will be able to tell.

Don't fall in love with anything. Work on the premise what ever you see will be rubbish and you may be surprised and get lucky.

 

[jimmcgee]

west coast of Scotland ?, have a look at a sealine 260 , although its a petrol

 

[jbweston]

Regarding the bill of sale. At this price level what you need to find out is if the person selling you the boat really owns it outright (or instead has stolen it or 'bought it' from a thief or has it on HP). You don't need a bill of sale unless the boat is part 1 registered, but you do need some evidence that he owns it and a bill of sale, an invoice to him when he bought it, maintenance invoices addressed to him going back years - any of these are supporting evidence. An unregistered boat is like any other piece of moveable property such as a TV, a table or a car, provided the seller owns it when you buy it, pay him and take possession it becomes yours. 'The title passes' as lawyers say.

You don't need any paperwork for the sale to be effective (unless the boat is registered). Any paperwork is (a) to satisfy you he's genuinely the owner, (b) to record any details of the sale you want in writing (like equipment included) and (c) for you to use to help you satisfy your buyer that you genuinely own it as and when you come to sell it.

 

[Seastoke]

The prospect of living on a small boat or on a drive is crazy, in the summer maybe . You would be better living on the streets where you can get a bed a shower and food.

 

[oldgit]

Any Hardy you can buy with the money available will likely be a better bet than the others mentioned.

 

[Davy_S]

The prospect of living on a small boat or on a drive is crazy, in the summer maybe . You would be better living on the streets where you can get a bed a shower and food.

I think he means that the boat itself could live on his drive or mooring. Not with him inside it

 

[Seastoke]

I think he means that the boat itself could live on his drive or mooring. Not with him inside it

God I am thick.

 

[Seastoke]

Have you thought about a motor sailer . Like the hardy in Dumbarton

 

[paulbrown22]

Any Hardy you can buy with the money available will likely be a better bet than the others mentioned.

Snap - £15k for a small Hardy (Pilot, Bosun, Navigator, etc) is strong money and definitely not a project. It should be a great example for that price and generally they are very well built, but can of course suffer from soft decks, etc., depending on how they've been looked after. Personally I wouldn't bother with a diesel-powered Hardy Pilot as they are pretty slow, I'd take one with a modern 4 stroke outboard. I have a Hardy Navigator on the Thames and love it for popping around Central London.

 

[Canopy Locked]

I'd take one with a modern 4 stroke outboard. I have a Hardy Navigator on the Thames and love it for popping around Central London.

I have a vision of you mooring outside Harrods, to pop in for some esential supplies, and the doorman standing there with a bemused look on his face

 

[Alicatt]

Any Hardy you can buy with the money available will likely be a better bet than the others mentioned.

We looked at a Hardy Family Pilot 2 years ago, asking £10k they would have settled for £9k, my car broke down when I arrived at the boat's location so was more concerned about that than the boat, it was a nice example on a good trailer complete with an extension bar to keep the car out the water during launch and recovery, boat had solar panels and a new Honda 40hp engine as well as an electric trolling motor. It would have been perfect for a starter boat, engine was a little small though and the price was good.
I was too busy getting the car repaired and someone else jumped in and bought the Hardy. Probably would not have the boat we have now though if we had bought the Hardy, we bought a 7.5m river cruiser and sold that last year as it was too cramped, the Hardy had a better layout and did not try to do too much like the 7.5m boat did.

Snap - £15k for a small Hardy (Pilot, Bosun, Navigator, etc) is strong money and definitely not a project. It should be a great example for that price and generally they are very well built, but can of course suffer from soft decks, etc., depending on how they've been looked after. Personally I wouldn't bother with a diesel-powered Hardy Pilot as they are pretty slow, I'd take one with a modern 4 stroke outboard. I have a Hardy Navigator on the Thames and love it for popping around Central London.

They did make a VP diesel stern drive version with a lot more power but they are very rare. From the Hardy owners site they say you need about 70hp to get the boat on the plane reliably, and if you can find one with trim tabs better still. The one we looked at had a 100litre water tank under the V-berth at the bow which helped keep the bow down.

 

[paulbrown22]

I have a vision of you mooring outside Harrods, to pop in for some esential supplies, and the doorman standing there with a bemused look on his face

Harrods isn't exactly the Hardy image, more like Fortnum and Mason!

 

[paulbrown22]

We looked at a Hardy Family Pilot 2 years ago, asking £10k they would have settled for £9k, my car broke down when I arrived at the boat's location so was more concerned about that than the boat, it was a nice example on a good trailer complete with an extension bar to keep the car out the water during launch and recovery, boat had solar panels and a new Honda 40hp engine as well as an electric trolling motor. It would have been perfect for a starter boat, engine was a little small though and the price was good.
I was too busy getting the car repaired and someone else jumped in and bought the Hardy. Probably would not have the boat we have now though if we had bought the Hardy, we bought a 7.5m river cruiser and sold that last year as it was too cramped, the Hardy had a better layout and did not try to do too much like the 7.5m boat did.


They did make a VP diesel stern drive version with a lot more power but they are very rare. From the Hardy owners site they say you need about 70hp to get the boat on the plane reliably, and if you can find one with trim tabs better still. The one we looked at had a 100litre water tank under the V-berth at the bow which helped keep the bow down.

Agree, I've seen a handful of Pilot's with larger Volvo engines, but very rare, and still have a sterndrive which I wouldn't want for a boat permanently in the water. Unless you really need/want diesel power on a small Hardy I'd stick with the simplicity of a modern 4-stroke outboard.

My Navigator runs a modern Suzuki DF50A and trim tabs, cruises at 12-14kn all day long and will do 23kn flat out. A Pilot is a bit larger/heavier and needs more like 70hp for similar performance, but I know people with Pilots with 50hp outboards and it will plane, albeit it a bit slower.

I love(d) my Navigator, absolutely great when we only had 1 child, but now another child has turned up I've just bought a Saga 26HT for much more space as a family of four. If no one buys the Navigator though, I'll happily keep it as a river runaround!

 

[Seastoke]

Good selling pitch