The pro's and cons of steel boat building

[Deleted member 36384]

There is no doubt that a steel boat is stronger than a GRP boat, none whatsoever. Also no doubt that steel is safer in a collision or a grounding. This is what this thread boils down to.

Is there really anything else to say on the matter?

 

[GHA]

Is there really anything else to say on the matter?

Obviously an awful lot

 

[john_morris_uk]

There is no doubt that a steel boat is stronger than a GRP boat, none whatsoever. Also no doubt that steel is safer in a collision or a grounding. This is what this thread boils down to.

Is there really anything else to say on the matter?

I don’t think anyone doubts that a steel boat can be stronger than a GRP one. It’s the wild and completely OTT allegations of doom and disaster facing all people who cruise and live on GRP yachts that is irritating.

We were having drinks last night with some people who are just completing a circumnavigation on a sister ship to our current GRP boat. They have no regrets about the boat and it’s strength or construction whatsoever. A nine year circumnavigation much of it in the Pacific. Their welcome home party is on 02 September.

If Brent would lose some of his single minded fixation (some of it irrational IMHO) he would gain a lot more respect. You can’t keep saying ‘I’m not flat, the bands sharp’ to justify being out of step with the wisdom of many people (if you’ll forgive the mixed metaphors).

 

[prv]

If Brent would lose some of his single minded fixation (some of it irrational IMHO)

But where would the fun be in that?

Pete

 

[rotrax]

There was a report from New Zealand that 90% of steel yachts get off a reef 100% of GRP boats don't, it also said that the majority of yachts passing through are steel.

I keep a steel yacht in NZ.

Last time I was in Pahia-the normal entry port for cruisers-from my interested observations of arriving cruisers, that report is not true.
Most are GRP from my direct observations. There are many more steel boats in NZ than in Europe, they suit local conditions well.

We have all accepted that steel boats are stronger in the event of grounding or hitting submerged objects.

It is their maintainence requirements when getting on a bit that is at issue.

Chichester's boat got off a reef OK. It was wooden. They fixed the huge hole in its side with sheet plywood and towed it to a dock to be fixed properly.

 

[Tranona]

There was a report from New Zealand that 90% of steel yachts get off a reef 100% of GRP boats don't, it also said that the majority of yachts passing through are steel.

This is as bad as Brent's so called evidence.

Posting heresay adds absolutely nothing. It is difficult to believe anything that is expressed in the way this is. If you have access to a report that adds anything, then reference it so that other interested parties can read it and make up their own mind.

 

[bbg]

There is no doubt that a steel boat is stronger than a GRP boat, none whatsoever. Also no doubt that steel is safer in a collision or a grounding. This is what this thread boils down to.

Is there really anything else to say on the matter?

It is physically impossible for GRP boats to rust.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

It is not worth the effort to change Brentswain’s commitment or views and I think it is pointless trying.

The thread has now drifted to trying to do that, to countering his views, to getting him to accept some standard of accountability for his claims.

You can’t get him to change, people who read this thread or are seriously interested in material choice between steel and GRP will do more reasesrch than just this thread.

Not sure why I care about the pointlessness of it all but the only winner in the battle of egos / last word will be the evangelicals.

 

[TSB240]

It is not worth the effort to change Brentswain’s commitment or views and I think it is pointless trying.

The thread has now drifted to trying to do that, to countering his views, to getting him to accept some standard of accountability for his claims.

You can’t get him to change, people who read this thread or are seriously interested in material choice between steel and GRP will do more reasesrch than just this thread.

Not sure why I care about the pointlessness of it all but the only winner in the battle of egos / last word will be the evangelicals.

I think this is probably the most sensible post on this thread so far!

Anyone including newcomers facing researching the choice of steel or plastic will soon make up their own minds about the veracity of his musings. His constant repetition of the same lines are just like a politician not prepared to give an answer outside the "Steel Box"

I vote for this thread to become a sticky... We can all ignore it and Brent can have an entire thread to keep repeating his Mantra on a daily basis.

 

[prv]

It is not worth the effort to change Brentswain’s commitment or views and I think it is pointless trying.

I'm not trying to change Brent's views; that's a self-evidently futile endeavour.

Consider this thread more akin to the 18th-century Bedlam charging visitors to come and poke the inmates with sticks as a form of amusement.

Pete

 

[Sybarite]

At the boatyard on the Seine near me there is a very nice 43 steel centre cockpit boat which never moves. The yard owner told me that the boat has now been there for 35 years. The owner comes occasionally to work on it - for 10 minutes - and then spends 3 hours chatting with people.

Incidentally the yard owner will be 90 in October. A few years ago he made me a very nice hardwood tiller - 40 euros.

 

[solent clown]

http://www.dutch-barges.net/price_guide.html

 

[DownWest]

http://www.dutch-barges.net/price_guide.html

Nice stuff there, but mega build times for the amateur. In reality, drifting into ship building, so not for this discussion.
One of the problems is BS style of boat is not so bad for the builder, if he/she wishes to set off. But the general crudness of the construction makes them a bit of a problem to sell on. While he insists that his upkeep is a few hours a year, the steel boats for sale don't seem to get a decent price, if they sell at all.

If, like SC, I wanted a 30 ft cruiser would I look at at steel?, No way! Far too many GRP boats that will probably take me around the local area, or, round the world, if I wish.. Focus on the rig, not problems with the hull.

 

[Brent Swain]

One example of a yacht that hit a reef/underwater obstruction and that subsequently lost its keel. Poor maintenance and management.

One example of a family in tragic circumstances with a boat foundering at sea.

Without even trying I found two steel yachts foundering/lost at sea. We are at 50% so far.

Please give examples and references of these multiple fatalities and missing yachts made of GRP that you keep referring to.

Yachting Monthly around June 2017.
Cabo San Lucas in 82. Most plastic boats broke up, the one steel boat "Joshua" still sails, despite having a plastic 40 footer land on top of her, and break up completely .
You are saying plastic is stronger than steel? How looney is that?

 

[DownWest]

Yachting Monthly around June 2017.
Cabo San Lucas in 82. Most plastic boats broke up, the one steel boat "Joshua" still sails, despite having a plastic 40 footer land on top of her, and break up completely .
You are saying plastic is stronger than steel? How looney is that?

Oh dear, Brent. Nobody is saying that. Just that most people do not use steel boats. It is very simple, but you have a problem in underestanding that.

 

[solent clown]

Nice stuff there, but mega build times for the amateur. In reality, drifting into ship building, so not for this discussion.
One of the problems is BS style of boat is not so bad for the builder, if he/she wishes to set off. But the general crudness of the construction makes them a bit of a problem to sell on. While he insists that his upkeep is a few hours a year, the steel boats for sale don't seem to get a decent price, if they sell at all.

If, like SC, I wanted a 30 ft cruiser would I look at at steel?, No way! Far too many GRP boats that will probably take me around the local area, or, round the world, if I wish.. Focus on the rig, not problems with the hull.

I do slightly disagree about not for this discussion, though I take your point about build times and skills involved. But that serves further to accent how expensive building a proper steel boat actually is before even thinking of fitting it out. However the discussion is about steel boat building - yes you are bang on about some of them being small ships as it were. Point is I would trust these a great deal more than something without any structural thought to the design beyond "can I weld that bit to that bit cheaply enough.?" The origami boat ethos has a following, but it is fundamentally flawed in the lack of shear panels. I simply cannot reconcile that against the greater cost of doing things properly. It is just an overgrown stitch and glue canoe, and the upscaling is fundamentally flawed. Also It is one thing to do things "in the field" to effect a temporary repair to put a machine back in to action or enable it to go down the line for proper repair, and another altogether to make something "IN A FIELD" with a dodgy stick welder and a few ratchet straps.
When one talks of steel boat building, it should be in the context of actual manufacturers or providers of kits that conform to at least some of the received wisdom, and importantly regulations here this side of the pond, to enable it to actually be used, insured, and later sold. The Brent Swain ethos has no place in europe where things have to be built properly.

 

[rotrax]

Yachting Monthly around June 2017.
Cabo San Lucas in 82. Most plastic boats broke up, the one steel boat "Joshua" still sails, despite having a plastic 40 footer land on top of her, and break up completely .
You are saying plastic is stronger than steel? How looney is that?

No Brent, you are the looney here.

All the pro GRP posters have accepted that steel is stronger than GRP.

The issue is if steel is a better material to build yachts from. The strength of the chosen material is only one element of its choice.

You obviously believe it is.

Others believe the opposite.

The arguments you make-again and again and again, to the point of brain overload-are not accepted by those who build and use such vessels in large numbers.

So, IMHO, you are perfectly entitled to your opinion, and I respect that. It would make a pleasant change if you also accepted that the views of others with contrary opinions are equally valuable, and just as worthy of respect.

On another point, Mottesiers boat was lost at Cabo because he and his mate were pissing it up in the shoreside Hotel during the storm, and not aboard.

Also I can fint no account of a 40 foot GRP boat dropping onto Joshua. Perhaps you can enlighten us as to where we might find this fantastic information.

Wiki does not seem to have it, but does have most other relevant stuff about Joshua.

 

[john_morris_uk]

Yachting Monthly around June 2017.
Cabo San Lucas in 82. Most plastic boats broke up, the one steel boat "Joshua" still sails, despite having a plastic 40 footer land on top of her, and break up completely .
You are saying plastic is stronger than steel? How looney is that?

Brent, I’ve never said GRP is stronger than steel, size for size etc. You are making yourself look very foolish making such a silly accusation.

The only reason I keep replying is because YBW gets a very high hit rate from people asking questions about boating and the longer this thread goes on, the less likely it is that some poor sap is going to be taken in by the delusions of nirvana in boat building and design as extolled ad infinitum by yourself.

Sorry to be so blunt, but whilst steel has some advantages as a boat building material, it’s got its fair share of problems too and the sooner people exploring the options recognise this, the better equipped they are to make reasoned and informed decisions.

 

[Daydream believer]

All this talk of grp and steel boats breaking up (or not) has me wondering how wooden boats have faired.
Has anyone noticed any thing about wood in the reports that they have viewed?
In my younger days i am certain that i could have built a 40 ft wooden yacht complete ( not just the hull because every boat has to be fitted out) as fast as BS could have built a complete steel one. It would have looked a lot better and sailed a lot better as well i suspect by virtue of a smoother hull shape.
of course whilst i would suggest if one wanted to build a new boat i would opt for wood epoxy sheathed.but if they wanted to refurbish an existing boat then grp is the way to go. Certainly never steel.

that being said last month i met a couple who have just joined our club. When John Major became PM they sold business home and all possessions and went on an 8 year world cruise in a steel yacht that they built themselves. They had no particular skills. The husband could not read or write due to a long term illness during his child hood years. They had a window making business. The wife handled all paper work..
They told me that they ran aground on a reef ( forget where) and the boat was on it fot at least a day. A tug was used to pull them off. The boat being steel survived. If it had not they would have lost their home.
i asked them what they thought of a steel boat. They said it was as tough as old boots but they were glad to get rid of it because it sailed like an old dog and there next boat was grp as is their current one
they said if they went round the world again( which they never would want to do) they would get a steel boat. However, for sailing in the Uk there was no way they would have one again

 

[bbg]

Yachting Monthly around June 2017.
Cabo San Lucas in 82. Most plastic boats broke up, the one steel boat "Joshua" still sails, despite having a plastic 40 footer land on top of her, and break up completely .
You are saying plastic is stronger than steel? How looney is that?

Carbon fibre is stronger than steel. Just so you know.
And it doesn't rust.