The pro's and cons of steel boat building

[Brent Swain]

Being as metal was my day job for decades, and having recently had a change of lifestyle that afforded us time and space, I did consider building a 32ft steel boat. Maybe things are different in the west ex colonies, but here in the UK it added up to a horrendous cost fro the steel and epoxy even without fitting the boat out. Most steel here has gone up 25-40% in the last year, which does not help, and epoxy seems more expensive than liquid gold.
So we took the approach of looking at old grp boats - thats isnt quite true, we looked at anything cheap, it could have been cement or glass we didnt care.
In the end we found a 31ft grp fixer upper. That became available precisely because it was damaged by rocks. Despite that it did not go to the bottom, and the damage was limited. the boat cost £400. There is work to do, a few days worth over few weeks. in materials it will be under £500. That is sailing on a shoestring. I buy some of your arguments about steel boats, but not the economic one in the real world. There are plenty of fixer uppers out there for the handy.

Yes my friends have done that ,and they have all inherited a rotted out balsa core, rotted out bulkheads with chain plates bolted to them etc etc. works for a short term, near home boat ,but not the best for extended ,long term cruising as a way of life. Living on them is like living in a slowly melting block of ice ,in winter.

 

[Brent Swain]

Some references please.

My quick search of various web sites hasn’t found any evidence of what you claim. I don’t know what you mean by ‘chat lines’. If dozens of people were disappearing then it would make the news.

Lots of reports of missing cruisers on sites I have seen.

 

[Brent Swain]

I too googled it but was a little intimidated by the results so could you please explain in simple terms how mechanical similitude might or might not have a bearing on the example of the Titanic sinking vs a yacht on a coral reef?
TIA.

"Skenes Elements of Yacht Design" describes it well. I'll try to scan the page, and hope it can be posted here.Not everything can be.

 

[john_morris_uk]

Lots of reports of missing cruisers on sites I have seen.

Some links please. I’ve not found any examples yet. A few boats abandoned with the details of what happened given but I can’t find dozens of ‘boat and crew missing without trace while on passage etc’ as you keep claiming.

Edit:

Noonsight has a section for missing yachts. There are only a slack handful listed over the last six years. Only four of them might be described as ‘missing’ in the way you suggest. i.e. dissapeared at sea (where you guess they’ve hit a semi submerged container or whale etc and sank taking the witnesses with them.)

It’s slightly ironic that TWO of the missing yachts were steel. 50% of this sample from one of the biggest sailing websites in the world. Four in total. It doesn’t make a compelling case...

I await your references to back up your claim of many GRP boats missing without trace with great anticipation and interest.

 

[rotrax]

Dont hold your breath...............................................

 

[solent clown]

Yes my friends have done that ,and they have all inherited a rotted out balsa core, rotted out bulkheads with chain plates bolted to them etc etc. works for a short term, near home boat ,but not the best for extended ,long term cruising as a way of life. Living on them is like living in a slowly melting block of ice ,in winter.

even after doing whatever repairs are required for us it is still massively, and i mean MASsIVELY cheaper to fix up this old 31ft boat than build a steel one. On economic grounds the build a steel boat argument does not work for us, despite having all the facilities to do so. Of course finding a cheap old steel boat is an option, but they need very very careful inspection/surveying for peace of mind. GRP boats are like the cockroaches of the sea, they will outlast most of us, and most steel boats, as they simply dont have many issues beyond osmosis (which is a rather a red herring anyway) and some inbuilt problems like the balsa core you mentioned. The flipside of that is the environmental time bomb of all that grp. Unlike steel, which whatever you do eventually rots, and is easily recycled.

 

[TSB240]

even after doing whatever repairs are required for us it is still massively, and i mean MASsIVELY cheaper to fix up this old 31ft boat than build a steel one. On economic grounds the build a steel boat argument does not work for us, despite having all the facilities to do so. Of course finding a cheap old steel boat is an option, but they need very very careful inspection/surveying for peace of mind. GRP boats are like the cockroaches of the sea, they will outlast most of us, and most steel boats, as they simply dont have many issues beyond osmosis (which is a rather a red herring anyway) and some inbuilt problems like the balsa core you mentioned. The flipside of that is the environmental time bomb of all that grp. Unlike steel, which whatever you do eventually rots, and is easily recycled.

Perhaps there will be a growing market for recovering all the grp wrecks to help make concrete a lot cheaper. Concrete requires huge amounts of energy to produce just like steel!
This might be a real environmental life changer making GRP boats considerably more environmentally friendly in their total life cycle in comparison to the steel construction model so ardently promoted here.....

https://fiberline.com/news/miljoe/breakthrough-recycling-fibreglass-now-reality.

 

[lw395]

even after doing whatever repairs are required for us it is still massively, and i mean MASsIVELY cheaper to fix up this old 31ft boat than build a steel one. On economic grounds the build a steel boat argument does not work for us, despite having all the facilities to do so. Of course finding a cheap old steel boat is an option, but they need very very careful inspection/surveying for peace of mind. GRP boats are like the cockroaches of the sea, they will outlast most of us, and most steel boats, as they simply dont have many issues beyond osmosis (which is a rather a red herring anyway) and some inbuilt problems like the balsa core you mentioned. The flipside of that is the environmental time bomb of all that grp. Unlike steel, which whatever you do eventually rots, and is easily recycled.

I'd love to build my own boat(s) but cost wise, it's bonkers compared to buying a used boat.
Plus, the time spent building a boat could be better spent sailing.

 

[DownWest]

I am on my forth. But, if bigger than 20ft, yes, bonkers. Having said that, still plenty of people doing it, which takes you back to 'builders or sailers' The key, as Annie Hill said, is to have one to sail, while building the 'one'.
BS is living in different era, both in time and place. But, no doubt will be back with the same repeated, ad nausium, bits of 'proof'. Several of which don't stand up to scrutiny..

He also seems to know a lot of people with very bad judgement, both in their choice of boats to do up and seafaring skills.
There is, of course, the possibility he knows a few more that don't support his single minded tin boat ideas. In a balanced discussion, steel has some advantages, but still is a minority choice.

 

[Brent Swain]

The forum "Cruiser Log " has a thread called "overdue or distress" or words to that effect, which makes interesting reading. Plenty of boats there. And that is one forum only. I wonder how many wouldn't be listed there ,had they been in steel hulls.

Some links please. I’ve not found any examples yet. A few boats abandoned with the details of what happened given but I can’t find dozens of ‘boat and crew missing without trace while on passage etc’ as you keep claiming.

Edit:

Noonsight has a section for missing yachts. There are only a slack handful listed over the last six years. Only four of them might be described as ‘missing’ in the way you suggest. i.e. dissapeared at sea (where you guess they’ve hit a semi submerged container or whale etc and sank taking the witnesses with them.)

It’s slightly ironic that TWO of the missing yachts were steel. 50% of this sample from one of the biggest sailing websites in the world. Four in total. It doesn’t make a compelling case...

I await your references to back up your claim of many GRP boats missing without trace with great anticipation and interest.

 

[Brent Swain]

I am on my forth. But, if bigger than 20ft, yes, bonkers. Having said that, still plenty of people doing it, which takes you back to 'builders or sailers' The key, as Annie Hill said, is to have one to sail, while building the 'one'.
BS is living in different era, both in time and place. But, no doubt will be back with the same repeated, ad nausium, bits of 'proof'. Several of which don't stand up to scrutiny..

He also seems to know a lot of people with very bad judgement, both in their choice of boats to do up and seafaring skills.
There is, of course, the possibility he knows a few more that don't support his single minded tin boat ideas. In a balanced discussion, steel has some advantages, but still is a minority choice.

Yes, full time cruising as a way of life is a minority choice. Once, believing the world was not flat, and the planets and sun didn't revolve around the world, was also a minority choice! Surely they couldn't possibly all be wrong, could they?
Its kinda like the hamsters sweating it out on the hamster wheel , jeering at the one hamster who had the wisdom to get off it, and calling him an idiot for doing so!
Yes, I know a lot of people who had the bad judgement to buy an older plastic boat. I even advised it, to the last guy I built a boat for ,while we built him a proper steel boat. The loss he took on his plastic boat was far less than the rent he would have paid while building the steel boat. Yes, buying a plastic boat, for a cheap place to live, while building a proper steel cruiser , is a good tactic. Given the experience of both ,he wants nothing more to do with plastic boats. He now considers building a new steel boat, a wise decision. The young lady who ended up with his plastic boat, and lived aboard it for a winter, now has a sister ship to my steel boat, and likewise, wants nothing more to do with plastic boats.
Four of the few plastic boats here have hit rocks and taken on water. So much for the theory that plastic boat never hit anything. None would have taken on water,if they had been steel. They would have only scraped a bit of paint off.

 

[Brent Swain]

Buying an older, trashed out plastic boat, and moving all the gear onto a new steel hull, can save a fortune in outfitting a new boat.

Even if you don't collide with a container ,or anything solid, on a dark, foggy , moonless night, knowing it wont matter if you do, makes cruising a lot less stressful, and thus far more enjoyable.
A doctor I built a boat for, who had sailed his plastic boat to New Zealand and back, said the difference in peace of mind cruising his steel boat on a dark moonless night, while doing hull speed, was huge.

 

[Tranona]

The forum "Cruiser Log " has a thread called "overdue or distress" or words to that effect, which makes interesting reading. Plenty of boats there. And that is one forum only. I wonder how many wouldn't be listed there ,had they been in steel hulls.

Well, I have read all of the reports on the first page which goes back 7 years and it simply does not support your claim of losses of boats and lives. Almost all incidents have been resolved and mostly the person and boat have been accounted for.

We question your wild statements here because there is no basis in truth for them. We have arguably the best news service in the world and we hear of such incidents - worldwide - as they occur and in my view most of those you vaguely refer to exist only in your mind.

NOT ONCE when challenged have you provided ANY documentary evidence to support your claims.

So, just like all your other claims that defy common sense and logic they have to be considered completely false.

I suggest you stop insulting our intelligence and refrain from posting such falsehoods here.

 

[john_morris_uk]

Well, I have read all of the reports on the first page which goes back 7 years and it simply does not support your claim of losses of boats and lives. Almost all incidents have been resolved and mostly the person and boat have been accounted for.

We question your wild statements here because there is no basis in truth for them. We have arguably the best news service in the world and we hear of such incidents - worldwide - as they occur and in my view most of those you vaguely refer to exist only in your mind.

NOT ONCE when challenged have you provided ANY documentary evidence to support your claims.

So, just like all your other claims that defy common sense and logic they have to be considered completely false.

I suggest you stop insulting our intelligence and refrain from posting such falsehoods here.

I’ve looked at a few sites and also found zero evidence for BS’s claims.

QED

 

[rotrax]

Yes, full time cruising as a way of life is a minority choice. Once, believing the world was not flat, and the planets and sun didn't revolve around the world, was also a minority choice! Surely they couldn't possibly all be wrong, could they?
Its kinda like the hamsters sweating it out on the hamster wheel , jeering at the one hamster who had the wisdom to get off it, and calling him an idiot for doing so!
Yes, I know a lot of people who had the bad judgement to buy an older plastic boat. I even advised it, to the last guy I built a boat for ,while we built him a proper steel boat. The loss he took on his plastic boat was far less than the rent he would have paid while building the steel boat. Yes, buying a plastic boat, for a cheap place to live, while building a proper steel cruiser , is a good tactic. Given the experience of both ,he wants nothing more to do with plastic boats. He now considers building a new steel boat, a wise decision. The young lady who ended up with his plastic boat, and lived aboard it for a winter, now has a sister ship to my steel boat, and likewise, wants nothing more to do with plastic boats.
Four of the few plastic boats here have hit rocks and taken on water. So much for the theory that plastic boat never hit anything. None would have taken on water,if they had been steel. They would have only scraped a bit of paint off.

Yawn.....................................................

Just more of the same hearsay, not evidence.

When you can back your wild statements with hard facts, supported by checkable evidence, we might listen to you.

Until then, business as usual-you spout rubbish-same old, same old-we wonder what drives your almost evangelical crusade.

Which, by the way, is doomed.

IMHO, of course..............................

 

[Brent Swain]

Well, I have read all of the reports on the first page which goes back 7 years and it simply does not support your claim of losses of boats and lives. Almost all incidents have been resolved and mostly the person and boat have been accounted for.

We question your wild statements here because there is no basis in truth for them. We have arguably the best news service in the world and we hear of such incidents - worldwide - as they occur and in my view most of those you vaguely refer to exist only in your mind.

NOT ONCE when challenged have you provided ANY documentary evidence to support your claims.

So, just like all your other claims that defy common sense and logic they have to be considered completely false.

I suggest you stop insulting our intelligence and refrain from posting such falsehoods here.

I gave the time and date of the British Yachting magazine a while back, which reported the keels falling off a couple of boats, costing 4 lives in one case , and 2 on another. Don't have time to go back and look for it.I believe it was around July 2017 ,in Yachting Monthly .Memorize that, and write it down, so I wont have to keep reminding you, over and over again
Are you saying the Sleavin family disaster didn't happen, because I cant give documentation for it ,right here and now? Boy, their loved ones will be happy to hear that!

 

[john_morris_uk]

I gave the time and date of the British Yachting magazine a while back, which reported the keels falling off a couple of boats, costing 4 lives in one case , and 2 on another. Don't have time to go back and look for it.I believe it was around July 2017 ,in Yachting Monthly .Memorize that, and write it down, so I wont have to keep reminding you, over and over again
Are you saying the Sleavin family disaster didn't happen, because I cant give documentation for it ,right here and now? Boy, their loved ones will be happy to hear that!

One example of a yacht that hit a reef/underwater obstruction and that subsequently lost its keel. Poor maintenance and management.

One example of a family in tragic circumstances with a boat foundering at sea.

Without even trying I found two steel yachts foundering/lost at sea. We are at 50% so far.

Please give examples and references of these multiple fatalities and missing yachts made of GRP that you keep referring to.

 

[Tranona]

I gave the time and date of the British Yachting magazine a while back, which reported the keels falling off a couple of boats, costing 4 lives in one case , and 2 on another. Don't have time to go back and look for it.I believe it was around July 2017 ,in Yachting Monthly .Memorize that, and write it down, so I wont have to keep reminding you, over and over again
Are you saying the Sleavin family disaster didn't happen, because I cant give documentation for it ,right here and now? Boy, their loved ones will be happy to hear that!

You are not a very discriminating person. You need to read and understand the circumstances of such incidents before suggesting that they would not have occurred if boats had been steel.

There will always be losses at sea - it is the nature of the beast. Some are the result of bad weather, some from misjudgements by skippers, some from failure of boats and equipment some from collisions with other vessels, objects in the sea or hard bits of land. Some people survive, some don't.

Your constant claim that this is all due to using GRP boats is just nonsense. Almost all losses at sea have an explanation and many (particularly if British boats) are investigated independently and reports issued.

If you take the time to read reports you will see how misinformed you are. It is a serious business and serious sailors deserve access to unbiased thorough reports so that they can learn from.

The sort of nonsense you spout does serious intelligent people such as inhabit this forum a grave disservice

It is becoming boring continually having to point out to you that the evidence does not support your claim, nor have you provided any evidence in support.

So, I repeat my request. Please stop posting on this subject.

 

[alant]

I gave the time and date of the British Yachting magazine a while back, which reported the keels falling off a couple of boats, costing 4 lives in one case , and 2 on another. Don't have time to go back and look for it.I believe it was around July 2017 ,in Yachting Monthly .Memorize that, and write it down, so I wont have to keep reminding you, over and over again
Are you saying the Sleavin family disaster didn't happen, because I cant give documentation for it ,right here and now? Boy, their loved ones will be happy to hear that!

How about moving the argument onto ferroboats, they seem to be equally suspect.

 

[KellysEye]

There was a report from New Zealand that 90% of steel yachts get off a reef 100% of GRP boats don't, it also said that the majority of yachts passing through are steel.