The long slow death of the cruiser racer...?

[flaming]

When I first started sailing the Elan, about 9 years ago, the cruiser racer seemed in rude health.

At a lot of the events we went to there would be a works crew with a brand new boat, trying to get some good results to help publicise the boat. I remember racing against the works crews from Dehler, X-Yachts, J-boats, Beneteau, Archambault, plus a whole bunch of crews being offered support in their new boats (normally in the form of a pro or two) from Bavaria, Elan and the rest.
We haven't seen any sort of works crew for years now, and more interestingly we haven't seen much in the way of new launches either.

A lot companies seem to have retreated from this sector. Elan are making lovely fast cruising boats, but they are simply uncompetitive. I have never heard of one turning in any results, and I haven't even seen one on the race course this year. Last one I saw was at Dartmouth last year, and it was flat last. That owner now has a JPK1080 and has won a lot of pots this year.
Beneteau have removed the First 30, 35, 40 and 45 from their website. I haven't heard a sniff about any planned replacements and I would have expected to.
Dufour have the 36, but I've never seen any evidence of anyone racing one.
Bavaria retreated from this section years ago after the match debacle.
Archambault have gone pop.

So what does that leave? What's actually available to buy new today for anyone who wants to go racing, and possibly do a little cruising?

Jeaneau have the sunfasts, the 3200 and the 3600. Great boats, but aimed squarely at the shorthanded sailor, not the round the cans type. And that's clear from the use they're getting. I've lost count of the number of them in our yard, there's at least 6, but they are never out for the fully crewed stuff. Fair enough, but that's not for everyone.
X-yachts have the XP33 and XP38 . Both of which look fantastic, but aren't going to be cheap. And the 33 suffers from the no doors to cabin thing that would put off a lot of people trying to convince a spouse that they'll also use it for cruising.
JPK have the 1010 and 1080. No arguments they are fantastic boats, and probably the best compromise currently available. However they're very expensive and JPK are a small yard who don't make an awful lot of boats, so there aren't that many available.
J have the J97E, which again suffers from the "no doors" thing, whilst the 109 (which isn't really in production, though I understand they will make one if you really want one), has the head in the forecabin thing. Otherwise not a bad, if now dated, option and who would buy a new one when there are so many around second hand? The J111 which has become a very serious class and is also a pretty poor cruising boat, and the J11s which is their answer to the 3600 - a shorthanded specialist.
Dehler are back with a new 34. Looks great, but also looks like a rework of the same 34 we used to race against years ago.

Have I missed anything?

So as far as I can see, if you want to buy a competitive new cruiser racer of 30 something feet that is genuinely dual role, the choice is extremely limited, and apart from the Dehler, is very expensive.

That all looks like a recipe for continuing declining fleets to me. Which could be confirmed with a quick look at the winter series fleets. The youngest boat in our fleet is a first 35. From about 2010 I think.

Yet at the same time some fleets are bucking the trend. The Fast 40s, which cost mega bucks to buy and super mega bucks to run, had 14 boats this season and expect 18 next. The J88s are suddenly getting traction and have 9 entered for the winter series. I can easily see that number growing now they are getting their own starts. The J111 held a world's in Cowes this year and had 12 boats on the line. The HP30 class is getting some interest. At the other end of the scale, the Impalas look to be having a resurgence.

None of those boats, with the possible exception of the impalas, have much pretence to anything the inhabitants of Scuttlebutt would call cruising comforts. Is the day of the cruiser racer over?

 

[FullCircle]

Many good points raised Ed.
However, the handicapping system must still be skewed if you cannot get the more middle of the road boats into the points. You are right about the fleets ageing and diminishing (here on the East Coast anyway).
Whilst there must be a class promoting the best crews and fastest boats so that the technological edge continues to be researched and proven, the rest of the formula for handicapping has gone wrong.
CHS anyone?

 

[flaming]

Many good points raised Ed.
However, the handicapping system must still be skewed if you cannot get the more middle of the road boats into the points. You are right about the fleets ageing and diminishing (here on the East Coast anyway).
Whilst there must be a class promoting the best crews and fastest boats so that the technological edge continues to be researched and proven, the rest of the formula for handicapping has gone wrong.
CHS anyone?

CHS is still with us, it's just called IRC!

I don't think it's a handicap thing though really. IRC is pretty well understood, and Elan (for example) must have made a conscious decision to ignore it. After all they are still using Rob Humphreys, who's designed enough IRC winners to know how to do it. That they've gone a different way just shows that it wasn't working for them as a business, designing cruiser racers for people to actually race. And I can't say I'm surprised, there were 2 380s (replacement to the 37 I sail) that ever raced in the Solent. That's hardly going to be a great business model.

 

[FullCircle]

Actually I was thinking of the old rules in CHS where sailcloth had a big effect on handicap for instance. Now they are declassified( I may be out of date) man with the most expensive sails wins.
In our old 3/4 tonner we could only afford Mylar 1 & 3 headsail, all the rest were Dacron. Which meant we could race with a tiny chance of doing OK

 

[flaming]

Actually I was thinking of the old rules in CHS where sailcloth had a big effect on handicap for instance. Now they are declassified( I may be out of date) man with the most expensive sails wins.
In our old 3/4 tonner we could only afford Mylar 1 & 3 headsail, all the rest were Dacron. Which meant we could race with a tiny chance of doing OK

Oh ok. Yes, that is an issue. Especially when it comes to cruiser racers. Having to both own two sets of sails, and then change them over (including probably swapping out for furling gear) is a big barrier to boats actually being used as cruiser racers.
I'm not sure how you go back on that though, as anyone who's raced with modern race sails isn't going to be queuing up to go back to dacron, especially when the competitive life of a 3DI or similar is a lot longer.

 

[MissFitz]

JPK have the 1010 and 1080. No arguments they are fantastic boats, and probably the best compromise currently available. However they're very expensive and JPK are a small yard who don't make an awful lot of boats, so there aren't that many available.

The JPK 1010 is the best boat I've ever sailed on & I'd be happy to cruise or race in one all day/summer/year long. However, I think their cruising appeal would be fairly limited. At least on the one I've sailed on, the toilet is under a pipe cot in the starboard aft cabin. This is not easy to use at the best of times & can be extremely challenging in a seaway. Plus they're not exactly easy boats to sail - or park, thanks to the twin rudders.

As to the overall demise of the cruiser-racer, could it maybe be to do with the fact that race boats have got much faster? A lot of younger owners these days aren't going to look at something that doesn't plane, but planing boats are never really going to be suitable for taking non/semi-sailing partners/families on a cruise.

 

[roblpm]

Great post. A point that i spend far too much time considering especially seeing as my next boat purchase is at least 5 years away (though i suspect the fun bit is that part and the day i actually buy it will be a disappointment!).

The fleet where I race on the Forth is gradually splitting into J boats and Corbys in the top division and old boats that mere mortals can afford in the lower divisions. I think there is a Dehler 32 arriving though so that will be interesting to see what happens next year.

Maybe it is something to do with demographics? The younger rich person (ie under 65) buying expensive boats up here seems to be a rare breed though there are a couple. Most owners of the expensive boats seem to be retired on good pensions. The younger guys (its all guys) ie from 25-65 who want to race are buying older cheaper boats.

So maybe the whole thing will be radically different in 10 years. Though probably not on the solent where the streets are paved with gold......

 

[savageseadog]

One issue with leading edge designs is that they're often not very strong so not very suitable for cruising. Designs are getting more extreme due to CAD and modern building methods so very little in reserve.

 

[roblpm]

Actually flaming maybe there is a hole in the market. We should start a new British boat building business. Build a range of 30, 35 and 40 foot cruiser racers. Go bust in a couple of years.....

 

[drakes drum]

Not convinced by Flamings argument. The JPK isnt a cruiser racer - Yachting World describe it as a racing keelboat, and it certainly isnt a boat that I would want to cruise. But I would say that the Elans are cruiser racers being designed for speed but with sufficient kit and comfort to cruise. The natural inheritors of the likes of Sigma.

The problem is with the racers because they are the ones demanding the extreme performance that prevents boats covering both bases. Flaming's tale of the guy who swapped from an Elan to a JPK is an illustration of just that point. The only way he could win against other racers with similar ideas was to buy a racing boat like his competitors had done.

Whilstever you have a design based handicap system for race boats, you will have designers bringing along ever more extreme designs aimed solely at winning and the keen racers will buy them. Its happened with every handicap system over the decades. So maybe if you want cruiser racers you should penalise boats without a built in shower, with less than 50 gallons of water, with anything but dacron sails, with anything but terylene ropes, without an anchor windlass etc etc. Currently IRC effectively penalises boats designed to be cruised

 

[bedouin]

I've been having similar thoughts but from the other side. I am predominately a short handed cruiser but would like a boat with good performance any perhaps be able to compete in offshore races.

It seems very hard to find a boat that can achieve that - particularly at the smaller end of the market. Once you get to 38-40 feet there seem to be some options available but I am not sure even those would be competitive against the more performance-oriented designs.

I suppose a lot comes down to hull shape - there has to be a compromise between sailing performance and accommodation and it is not possible to come up with a hull shape that is acceptable for both at less than about 38'. In theory the IRC rule could be adjusted to make more provision for different hull shapes but in practice it is hard to see how that would be achieved without taking more hull measurements.

 

[flaming]

Not convinced by Flamings argument. The JPK isnt a cruiser racer - Yachting World describe it as a racing keelboat, and it certainly isnt a boat that I would want to cruise. But I would say that the Elans are cruiser racers being designed for speed but with sufficient kit and comfort to cruise. The natural inheritors of the likes of Sigma.

The problem is with the racers because they are the ones demanding the extreme performance that prevents boats covering both bases. Flaming's tale of the guy who swapped from an Elan to a JPK is an illustration of just that point. The only way he could win against other racers with similar ideas was to buy a racing boat like his competitors had done.

Actually, the JPK is not an extreme performance design. For its size they have a pretty moderate rating. For example the JPK1010 is off about 1.010 to 1.015 give or take, and the J88, which is about 4 foot smaller and still not an especially extreme design, is off about 1.030. The point about the guy who swapped was more that it seemed to be that Elan had withdrawn from trying to make competitive boats (at least for short course racing) as the same guy with a JPK proved to be a pretty decent sailor.

Whilstever you have a design based handicap system for race boats, you will have designers bringing along ever more extreme designs aimed solely at winning and the keen racers will buy them. Its happened with every handicap system over the decades. So maybe if you want cruiser racers you should penalise boats without a built in shower, with less than 50 gallons of water, with anything but dacron sails, with anything but terylene ropes, without an anchor windlass etc etc. Currently IRC effectively penalises boats designed to be cruised

I agree that IRC penalises boats designed to be cruised, and I find this massively ironic as they have as one of their stated aims protecting the existing CR fleet. I guess my post is saying, have the manufacturers effectively already voted with their production lines, and withdrawn on mass from the cruiser racer market? Certainly if the Elan was to sink tomorrow and the owner was looking for a direct replacement to win round the cans under IRC whilst having an interior that could be cruised in reasonable comfort, I can't actually think of one available new today, certainly not in the AWB price bracket.

And a follow up question... Is this necessarily a bad thing?

 

[MissFitz]

Would be interesting to know how many owners of cruiser-racers do actually cruise them. I can't think of many - but that may be a reflection of the type of racing we have round here. Anyone?

 

[flaming]

Would be interesting to know how many owners of cruiser-racers do actually cruise them. I can't think of many - but that may be a reflection of the type of racing we have round here. Anyone?

http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?435714-Cruising-the-racer

A question I asked a while ago! The consensus was certainly "not many"...

 

[drakes drum]

Actually, the JPK is not an extreme performance design. For its size they have a pretty moderate rating. For example the JPK1010 is off about 1.010 to 1.015 give or take, and the J88, which is about 4 foot smaller and still not an especially extreme design, is off about 1.030. The point about the guy who swapped was more that it seemed to be that Elan had withdrawn from trying to make competitive boats (at least for short course racing) as the same guy with a JPK proved to be a pretty decent sailor.



I agree that IRC penalises boats designed to be cruised, and I find this massively ironic as they have as one of their stated aims protecting the existing CR fleet. I guess my post is saying, have the manufacturers effectively already voted with their production lines, and withdrawn on mass from the cruiser racer market? Certainly if the Elan was to sink tomorrow and the owner was looking for a direct replacement to win round the cans under IRC whilst having an interior that could be cruised in reasonable comfort, I can't actually think of one available new today, certainly not in the AWB price bracket.

And a follow up question... Is this necessarily a bad thing?

The manufacturers havent voted with their production lines - they are still making boats that can be cruised and are also fun to race. The problem is that you Flaming, and by that I dont mean you personally but the keen racer, wants a level of performance that comes from a racing only design, at least at the lengths being considered. The boats you quote are extreme designs.

You could argue that truly comfortable cruising boats are as extreme in the other direction, fully loaded up with the nice things of life like generators and freezers and big water tanks and extensive canvas work etc. Who these days would want to cruise any distance on the likes of the Contessa32 or Sigma 33 or Impala? I wouldnt

The real answer for the keen racer is one design.

Or dare I mention its name - NHC racing!

 

[flaming]

The manufacturers havent voted with their production lines - they are still making boats that can be cruised and are also fun to race. The problem is that you Flaming, and by that I dont mean you personally but the keen racer, wants a level of performance that comes from a racing only design, at least at the lengths being considered. The boats you quote are extreme designs.

You could argue that truly comfortable cruising boats are as extreme in the other direction, fully loaded up with the nice things of life like generators and freezers and big water tanks and extensive canvas work etc. Who these days would want to cruise any distance on the likes of the Contessa32 or Sigma 33 or Impala? I wouldnt

The real answer for the keen racer is one design.

Or dare I mention its name - NHC racing!

What boats are still being made that are good to cruise and are fun to race?

That was my question. I couldn't think of any, at least none that are available at AWB pricing.

 

[roblpm]

What boats are still being made that are good to cruise and are fun to race?

That was my question. I couldn't think of any, at least none that are available at AWB pricing.

I think you already know the answer.....

You have already listed the non alternatives....

Anyway my research fwiw.... Not new. But available under 10 years old. And all no good, according to you??!!

X34. X37? Expensive.
Dufour 34p, 36p
Dehler - various
Arcona. Expensive
Grand Soleil?
Elan

So how about the cruisiest race boat instead??

I think if someone could stretch to it X34 / X37 is the closest?

I think the French pogo/rm etc fast cruising boats aren't raced because of handicap problems??

I think it is up to you to come up with the definitive answer......

 

[Lucky Duck]

Define AWB pricing, I noticed elsewhere a discussion about getting a new Bav 34 for around £100k. The costs for carbon pole, decent deck gear and sails would I suspect drive the cost up considerably

 

[lw395]

As I see it, a lot of the problem is yacht racers wanting to dinghy race around 1 hour short courses, and low interest in the passage racing genre. Or the passage racers are a breed apart.
I too like the dinghy type courses, so I've done the proper thing and bought a dinghy, or three....
The flip side of this discussion, is last time I went to the Lun'on Boat Show, there were virtually no racing boats there. (TBH that was a while back!). Or even race-worthy cruisers. The AWB market seems to be all about chartering and sea schools. Is it the extinction of the all-round private owner? Polarisation from both sides?
I know lots of people who both race and cruise, but they race small boats and cruise bigger ones.

 

[Ingwe]

I think you need to think more Europe wide as the manufacturers just want the highest number of sales, I would be pretty sure more boats in this bracket are sold in France than anywhere else and probably by some margin. Obviously there is lots of round the cans racing in France but I would guess that the most prestigious race in France for amateur sailors is probably the Transquadra race (solo / 2 handed transat race split into 2 so as to fit into holidays more easily) and this is what the JPK's and Sunfasts have been designed for.

Jeanneau have realised that the 3200 in its original form cannot quite compete with the 10.10 round the cans in light airs so for the updated model for next year you can add a carbon mast that is also longer than the standard one as well as a straight lead fin keel (no bulb) which is definitely quicker round the cans - the 3200 in the commodore's cup winning team this year had been modified with this setup, but I suspect they will still sell more in the original configuration as it is still probably better offshore shorthanded.

From a UK perspective though unless the pound bounces back fairly soon I doubt too many people will be ordering new boats in this size range in the near future as you now need to find an extra 10% + more than you did six months ago and most of the owners at this level are obviously well off but would have to think about an extra £10k on the asking prices.