The Ady Gil: Who was in the wrong

[webcraft]

I'd question if application of the IRPCS has any meaning where vessels are *trying* to create close quarters situations.

Good point. It's as irrelevant as the endless discussions to whether the Iraq war was 'legal' or not.

Sea Shepherd are down there to harass the whalers and try to prevent them catching whales. While I am sure they do what they can to avoid injury to their own crew members and probably hope to avoid inflicting physical harm on the whaling crews I doubt if they are constantly analysing their manoevres in light of the ColRegs. For us to do so is no more than an idle academic exercise.

I fail to see that it really matters whose fault the collision was. Talking nicely to the Japanese about their whaling activities hasn't achieved anything, and at least Sea Shepherd are trying to do something about it.

- W

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

I doubt if they are constantly analysing their manoevres in light of the ColRegs. For us to do so is no more than an idle academic exercise.

I couldn't help but chuckle at the thought of a load of YBW folk watching a Destroyer ramming a U-Boat in a film and muttering under their breath that technically the Destroyer should have turned away in plenty of time to avoid the collision. They'd be right, but possibly missing the point!

Talking nicely to the Japanese about their whaling activities hasn't achieved anything

It may be worse than that. I read somewhere (not sure where) that by forcing the Japanese to use the 'Scientific' excuse to eat Whales we are forcing them to kill enough to be statistically meaningful. It could well be that if we just let them eat them they'd kill less. No idea how true that is.

 

[Major Catastrophe]

At the time of the collision the Ady Gil had turned to port and rammed the research vessel.

Anyone who thinks that that Research Ship turned into the Ady Gil has no comprehension of how ships handle at sea.

I'll always respect the opinion of a professional and even an experienced amateur. I assume your comment is based upon this video and would welcome an explanation as to how what I see fits in with your analysis.

The Shonan Maru 2 is an ex whaler, which are built to be highly manoeuvrable at speed to chase whales.

 

[TradewindSailor]

I'll always respect the opinion of a professional and even an experienced amateur. I assume your comment is based upon this video and would welcome an explanation as to how what I see fits in with your analysis.

The Shonan Maru 2 is an ex whaler, which are built to be highly manoeuvrable at speed to chase whales.

Just look at the initial angle, with the float almost parallel to the path of the Research Vessel, and the impact angle with the Ady Gill turning about 60 degrees into the ship's path. For the ship to change to this angle of attack at this speed it would have had to approach from further out and you would have seen the Research Vessel heeling to port due to the inertial effect. I am not saying that the Research Vessel didn't turn to starboard to close the Ady Gil, it probably did, but in order to make this angle of impact you would have seen much more heel.

If the Ady Gill had no intention to ram the Research Vessel it should have turned hard to starboard!

If you have any doubts over this why not ask your friendly pilot? I'm sure they'll back up what I'm saying.

 

[TradewindSailor]

Other points:

When the Ady Gil hit the research vessel the Adi Gill had throttled up.

It had the ability to go astern too .... but the forward thrust had definitely significantly increased from when it was initially at idle or close to it.


If the Ady Gil had maintained it's original position, and was hit by the Research Vessel, the lighter bows would have been pushed off by the bow wave. It is clear to me that the Adi Gil had forward momentum in order to produce this amount of damage.

 

[Major Catastrophe]

When the Ady Gil hit the research vessel the Adi Gill had throttled up.

It had the ability to go astern too .... but the forward thrust had definitely significantly increased from when it was initially at idle or close to it.

I was under the impression that the helmsman, who was blinded by the fire hoses, reacted wrongly to the shouted and panicky instructions from the crew members sitting outside, on top.

Thank you for your explanation, but whatever happened, the Ady Gill has sparked worldwide publicity to the anti whaling cause.

 

[DannyB]

And no doubt that was the intended result !

 

[TradewindSailor]

I was under the impression that the helmsman, who was blinded by the fire hoses, reacted wrongly to the shouted and panicky instructions from the crew members sitting outside, on top.

Thank you for your explanation, but whatever happened, the Ady Gill has sparked worldwide publicity to the anti whaling cause.

There are some video clips showing the crew smiling after the incident. I rather think it's because they succeeded in what they set out to do rather than relief that they are still on the Earth.

It's good practice not to listen to either side when working out who did what and when. Apart from lying, they could be confused or just mistaken. Generally the physical evidence points towards the truth ...... and in this case we have video shot from multiple sources.

One thing often overseen by 'observers' is relative motion between the 'observer' and the two colliding vessels. Add this to clever editing, and you end up with dodgy 'evidence' ..... so be careful what you think you see, you could be mistaken! Special effects people work with set viewing angles, multiple runs, and an editing team ..... not possible in this case .... due to the number of video shots, but some views are still deceptive.

As for the anti-whaling lobby: I agree that there should be no whaling, but I strongly disagree with this organisations antics. This type of thing has been going on for more than 30 years without much success except for the organisations receiving huge amounts of money from donations ....... It's one way to earn a living I suppose.

I am very privileged to be in an area where whales, dolphins, and whale sharks are often seen ....... long may it continue.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

I was under the impression that the helmsman, who was blinded by the fire hoses, reacted wrongly to the shouted and panicky instructions from the crew members sitting outside, on top.

Wrongly under the impression.

They aren't blinded until past 1:20. They have already started to move move forwards into the collision before the fire hose goes anywhere near them. The firehose gets to them about 1:20. Up 'till then they have a clear view of the ship and it's clearly going ahead of them. Of course almost throughout they have a clear view behind and they'd be well aware that safety lies behind not in front.

I have another quibble with your version of events. You say above:

"unsportingly the Japanese continued using after the Ady Gill was holed."

It's clear from the video that subsiquent to the collision the firehoses aren't aimed at all. It so happens that the rear fire hose connects with them but it's no being aimed, it just hits them as the ship passes.

Does anyone know if this is going to be decided in a court anywhere? (I'd bet plenty of blame on both sides.)

 

[AndieMac]

I'll always respect the opinion of a professional and even an experienced amateur. I assume your comment is based upon this video and would welcome an explanation as to how what I see fits in with your analysis.

The Shonan Maru 2 is an ex whaler, which are built to be highly manoeuvrable at speed to chase whales.

It must be down to interpretation Major, from where I'm sitting the jap ship looks to have made a most deliberate and significant turn to stb, which maybe just an unfortunate mis-interpretation of Colregs......or have I been fooled by some very good trick photograpy.......or just part of the 'great conspiracy theory' in the southern ocean.

Maybe Sea Shepherd's a training base for terrorists...................

Its also comforting to know that if a large ship is about to run down a light displacement vessel, the bow wave will push you out of the way.......


There doesn't appear to be much comment about the "Cod Wars" posting......surely civilised people don't get territorial about a few fish?????

 

[Bajansailor]

I got the impression from the video (top right of the three) that the Ady Gil motored forward and collided with the ship.
Re bow waves pushing a boat clear - we had a very unwelcome experience of this while hove to in a gale off Cape Finisterre, 30 miles outside the shipping lanes, and a huge Chinese bulk carrier was heading straight for us. Luckily his bow wave pushed us to one side.

 

[TradewindSailor]

....
Its also comforting to know that if a large ship is about to run down a light displacement vessel, the bow wave will push you out of the way.......
....

Don't generalise this. We're discussing the Ady Gill.

This boat has a longitudinal centre of gravity way back, almost certainly at the centre of the float/sponsons/amas. The bow is very light and barely sits in the water. Look at:

http://trendsupdates.com/sea-shephe...mobile-of-the-oceans-to-help-save-the-whales/

If the Ady Gill was not moving, or moving very little, the bow of the Research Vessel would have little difficulty just pushing her around. With little resistance she would spin about the centre of the floats and probably be forced stern to the Research Vessel.

However with the forward thrust she was held into the Research Vessel and not spun. This is not speculation ..... the videos show this clearly.

It would be interesting to see some physical model tests.

 

[TradewindSailor]

Look at the prop on the Ady Gil:

http://sharkdivers.blogspot.com/2009/11/sea-shepherd-whale-defense-meat-grinder.html


The above URL shows the huge unguarded props and makes the obvious observation : why have unguarded meat choppers on a vessel that is operating close to the whales when they're suppost to be protecting them?

One conclusion ...... they don't give a fig about the whales, they just want publicity and the punters ££££.

 

[AndieMac]

However with the forward thrust she was held into the Research Vessel and not spun. This is not speculation ..... the videos show this clearly.

I was under the impression you were implying the use of 'trick photography'...

I don't know who to believe now.....

Perhaps the japs were directing the water cannon pressure towards the stern of Ady Gil, so her light bow wouldn't glance off the bow wave, and cause maximum impact during the 'calculated' collision.

So many theories.......maybe we might just have to wait and see the result of some 'real' evidence.

As the Major said, this group are no strangers to controversy, and right now they rank very highly in this department.

No doubt with decades of confrontations behind them, there will be many on this planet who would have fallen foul of their actions, and will be first to lay the boot in after an 'incident'.

I wonder what the reaction would be if a group of radical believers vowed protection of cruising yachts-folk against piracy on the oceans......involving unconventional methods to achieve their goals......siting in-action by world governments.

But I'm sure we can just stay focused on Colregs and bad seamanship.....

 

[Cruiser2B]

I wonder what the reaction would be if a group of radical believers vowed protection of cruising yachts-folk against piracy on the oceans......involving unconventional methods to achieve their goals......siting in-action by world governments.

But I'm sure we can just stay focused on Colregs and bad seamanship.....

Piracy is illegal, but the whaling, no matter how distasteful to some, is legal.

 

[robin_99]

Piracy is illegal, but the whaling, no matter how distasteful to some, is legal.

Hmm. I thought there was a moratorium on commercial whaling? Which is why the Japanese are not doing commercial whaling. They are doing "research" on whales by killing 1000 of them per year and then eating them.

 

[TradewindSailor]

I was under the impression you were implying the use of 'trick photography'...

I don't know who to believe now.....

.....

From my previous post
"....One thing often overseen by 'observers' is relative motion between the 'observer' and the two colliding vessels. Add this to clever editing, and you end up with dodgy 'evidence' ..... so be careful what you think you see, you could be mistaken! Special effects people work with set viewing angles, multiple runs, and an editing team ..... not possible in this case .... due to the number of video shots, but some views are still deceptive......"

All I was saying is that individual video clips can be managed and edited to tell a particular story. Documentarists employ this tactic. In this case we have at least 4 different video clips from 4 different positions and at least three ships. As yet I have not seen any from any aircraft. Hence any attempt to manipulate the video clips, by whatever party, would be very difficult to hide.

 

[robin_99]

whaling, no matter how distasteful to some

I have nothing against whaling or eating whales, or burning them in lamps, or whatever else man has used them for over the ages. But in my opinion, the act of killing endangered animals is immoral. And if the IWC had actually been successful in doing their job, which is to manage the whaling industry, there would still be viable populations of whales and we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

 

[jamesjermain]

I have absolutely no sympathy with the Japanese whaling fleet and their disregard for world opinion. But also I have no sympathy with the tactics of the whale huggers.

They deliberately put themselves at risk, inviting a collision which could have caused the deaths of some or all of the crew. The Ady Gil is a fast and manoeuvrable craft and had no need to be where they were. As I interpret the film, the Japanese ship was turning into the Ady Gil with murderous intent, but the Ady Gil was also going ahead in an attempt to be right under her bows - complete madness on both side. The Colregs were not devised to adjudicate between two vessels hell bent on ramming each other

 

[webcraft]

I have absolutely no sympathy with the Japanese whaling fleet and their disregard for world opinion. But also I have no sympathy with the tactics of the whale huggers.

What tactics could Sea Shepherd use that would both be effective and meet with your approval?

- W