Tell me the Truth about Baveria's

[TheBrumNavy]

Tell me the Truth about Baveria\'s

We are in the process of putting together a syndicate and are going through the inevitable turmoil of which boat to buy. Needless to say everyone has a different idea at the moment and there will have to be some compromises.

We went to the Boat Show in January and would have bought the new Bavaria 39.5 had we had the money in our pocket at the time, we thought it best in show.

However since that time and talking to a number of agents I have not heard a good word spoken about Bavaria unless by someone associated with the company. Comments like :-

Good cheap entry level boat, depreciation high, buy something else

and

After about five years they start giving trouble, cheap and nasty.

and

The only people that will buy it off you after 5 years is Baveria and only then to sell you another one.

I think some of the agents making these comments could be plain jealous of Bavaria’s success, or is there really a problem with depreciation and quality/reliability.

I would like to hear from past and present owners of Bavaria’s, ONLY. I would like to know what your experience has been.

Any help gratefully received

 

[Guest]

Post deleted by danfoley

 

[AIDY]

Re: Tell me the Truth about Baveria\'s

[ QUOTE ]
Good cheap entry level boat, depreciation high

[/ QUOTE ]

I would tend to agree with this statement. a few years ago we had a deposit on a bav. and jumped ship at the last min. we bought another boat at the time from another manufacture. and i'm glad we did. there are some many bavs about they depresiate like stones. The ford focus of the sailing world.

I too prefer a heavy boat. nothing against the bav package for the money but they tend to be what i describe as a sunshine boat, not built too well MFI flat packcomes to mind. If you have had a look at one that has been chartered they look and feel well used after a few years.

They have had alot of the Match boats recalled recently with keel and hull problems.

 

[Signed Out]

Re: Tell me the Truth about Baveria\'s

As said above, I'd be wary, but listen to non-owners too.
And as a non-owner, who's sailed 'em and fixed the buggers as a flotilla engineer once upon a short time. I'm not a fan. In 2000 they were flimsy and held together with mastic.
Just told by a friend who's dad's got one that it's the 2nd- the 1st was sent back with a "crack". And was told to steer clear of them by a guy who used to sell them.
But it's all hearsay; I'm not an owner. Never have been, never will be.

 

[jonjo]

Re: Tell me the Truth about Baveria\'s

The trouble with these discussions about Bavaria yacht quality is the uninformed observer might conclude that on a 1 to 10 quality scale you have Bavaria rated as a 1 and the rest of the boat building industry straddling the 8, 9 and 10 ratings.

In my opinion up at the 8, 9, and 10 end of the scale you have the likes of Malo and HR. A Westerly Fulmar that has had a recent £25k refit might warrant a 5 and a Contessa that has been remanufactured at Jeremy Rodgers for a £30k bill would rate a 4 as it would still carry the burden of its built down to price origins.

So where do we put current volume yacht manufacturers? I think 80% of the new yachts shipped today would sit in the 1 to 3 range. Jeanneau deserve a 3, Hanse and Bavaria get a 1 and Beneteau a 2 perhaps.

What I am saying is the quality difference between the bottom and top of the mass market is not as large as people would have you believe.

 

[jonjo]

Re: Tell me the Truth about Baveria\'s

[ QUOTE ]
The ford focus of the sailing world.

[/ QUOTE ]
Not a good analogy to support your argument. The Ford focus is a very tradable secondhand car with a firm second hand value. Try selling a 5 year old executive Audi or Peugeot and you will understand my point.

[ QUOTE ]
They have had alot of the Match boats recalled recently with keel and hull problems.

[/ QUOTE ]
Err, there was one design problem with the keel to hull attachment on the 38 and 42 models.

 

[Topcat47]

Re: Tell me the Truth about Baveria\'s

This post is probably better suited to Scuttlebut as it's based on second and third hand information but Hanses have a sound hull but are cheaply fiinished whereas the Bavaria's are cheaply produced and better fited out.

A Bavaria was having osmosis treatment and the peeler went through the hull at a thin section...I saw this one...glad I bought a solid old boat after that.

A friendly neighbourhood shipwright claims to have sent his daughter to private school on the back of his work on Dheler and Bavaria boats. Dunno how true that is but it makes a good yarn.

 

[jonjo]

Re: Tell me the Truth about Baveria\'s

[ QUOTE ]
A Bavaria was having osmosis treatment and the peeler went through the hull

[/ QUOTE ]
I have seen the same on a Westerly Discuss osmosis job but in that case it was caused by an angle grinder plus operator error.

The presence of osmosis indicates the hull was 10 to 15 years old, I thought these were meant to be the solid Bavaria's.

Dehler = a problem yacht brand, that is news to me or could this be attributed to enthusiastic racing owners?

The trouble with this discussion is there is too much hearsay evidence and private agendas driven by current personal investment in a particular brand of yacht.

For example in one internet discussion thread I tried to describe the substantial metal space-frame to takes up the rigging load on my Bavaria Match 35, later I saw someone misquoting me claiming he had heard that Bavaria's were built around a metal lattice so he had decided not to buy one.

All this does not help the original poster, it is perverse that there is more independent consumer advice available to the buyer of a £30 toaster than a £100k yacht.

 

[TigaWave]

Re: Tell me the Truth about Baveria\'s

I had a Bavaria, great boat well made, good quality and size of fittings, appreciated in value whilst I had her.

Made 1991 Bavaia 390.

When I came to sell her she was parked next to a new 2002 Bav 42, fittings were smaller, mouldings thinner. All fittings from kicker to winches were smaller than mine, as were the rigging attachements, we had the same sized rig.

I know of one new Bav owner, 36 2003 model I think, after crossing the pond they discovered split in hull either side of rudder bearing that was leaking. The boat was Spanish, don't remember the name.

Good luck with what ever you choose.

 

[AIDY]

Re: Tell me the Truth about Baveria\'s

Bang...... Shot down by a match owner.... /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif

best of luck with what ever boat you choose...

 

[Guest]

Re: Tell me the Truth about Baveria\'s

[ QUOTE ]
Err, there was one design problem with the keel

[/ QUOTE ]
ie. it dropped off

.

 

[tcm]

depreciation

erm the depreciation should be put into perspective. It's true that posher boats (like cars) depreciate less as a PERCENTAGE of their value. However, in terms of actual cash lost, i wd bet that the bav does very well. Same with cars - if you want to lose 35 grand in two years on a 3litre motor car, get a mercedes or BMW. The same is impossible with a Peugeot - yet he Pug will get a black mark for "poor depreciation" - bollx, really - who cares about the percentage? You care about the actual amount of loot lost. Redo the calculations?

Sepretly (althop still playing with statistics...) - I wd imagine that there are twice as many unhappy bav owners out there as other makes .... cos there are loads and loads more of them!

For general/usual goofing around on a boat at weekends and occasional longer trip, they seem fine. I've charted them and they seem fine enough for a hol unless you are a right ole moany tsk oh dear it's just hopeless in a f8 sort of sailor which in my experience not many really are cos even in solent in f8 there are not many boats of any description out there.

Some hereabouts have gone across the atlantic on bavs - plenty on the ARC, none sank, all seemed ok.

The cheapness is partly a function of scale economy, tho perhaps a bit with lower spec stuff. Nonetheless - they went x-atlantic so generally - they work, no?

I agree that the bav at the boat show looked great, a huge stack of boat for the money.

Quality-wise, there are some aspects that siomply must work in bavs favour - i wd prefer to buy a boat from a company who makes 50 teak decks a week rather than one every month. How did we do this last time, anyone?...

Nope, i'm not an owner. Spose i was balancing things up. I (or anyone) could argue the other way....

 

[Lakesailor]

Re: Tell me the Truth about Baveria\'s

[ QUOTE ]
This post is probably better suited to Scuttlebut as it's based on second and third hand information

[/ QUOTE ] Is that a new rule then?

 

[Phoenix of Hamble]

Re: depreciation

I've also often wondered about pricing on Bavs....

If the Bav is, lets say for arguments sake, 20% cheaper than one of its nearer competitors.....

Anyone care to guess what additional discount you would get on all the materials, fittings etc etc for ordering twice as much as a competitor?

Likely to be 15 to 20% more I would hope?

And with their automated production line manufacturing techniques, bet their productivity per head is at least 20% higher.....

So, there is also an argument that might be made (although not validated in any way I hasten to add) that there is no reason for the quality levels to be any lower than some of their closer competitors..... n ést pas vrais?

 

[Norman_E]

Re: Tell me the Truth about Baveria\'s

Article in May PBO (page 5) about a three month old Bavaria 39 that failed a survey. One issue was down to whoever rigged the boat, as the backstay strops were incorrectly attached, but a major issue was that a backstay chainplate had been bolted through the hull with some of the bolts missing the backing plate. I consider that a serious quality control issue. The owner has commented on other faults in the article. All together it does not give a good impression of quality. As an aside I recently had my Jeanneau 45.2 moored alongside a newer Bav 44 and noticed that the deck fittings on the latter all appear slightly smaller, on what is essentially the same size boat.

 

[jonjo]

Re: Tell me the Truth about

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Err, there was one design problem with the keel

[/ QUOTE ]
ie. it dropped off

[/ QUOTE ]
No the keel ripped off following a heavy underwater keel grounding incident that generated sufficient shock to cause the mast to compress at deck level and left a permanent bellowed/ripple effect in the mast that had a wave amplitude of +2cm.

I do accept that the keel separated too easily from the hull and other photo's of the charter fleet indicate a worrying amount of flexing at the hull keel joint for nearly brand new boats.

 

[cynthia]

Re: Tell me the Truth about Baveria\'s

Got one - a 34. Have crossed Biscay in it. We sail in excess of 1,000 nm per year and have had no major problems. It is now 5 years old and we have no intention of selling it.
When we had a s.s. arch fitted the experienced boating firm commented on how thick the fibre glass was and how well constructed the boat was (to their surprise!) - other than the pulpit which we then had to have beefed up.
It does what we bought it to do, sails well, is easy to handle and has good accommodation. With hindsight a heavier boat with greater load carrying capacity would have been good, but we knew that at the time we bought. We have no regrets, but then we have a Ford Focus too!!

 

[Guest]

Re: Tell me the Truth about

[ QUOTE ]
No the keel ripped off following a heavy underwater keel grounding incident

[/ QUOTE ]
Not according to the people that were on board at the time. Has the case been decided in Bavaria's favour, or are you just repeating Bavaria's marketing department's official line?

.

 

[sonic]

Re: Tell me the Truth about Baveria\'s

I have a Bavaria 38 Exclusive with in mast furling. A great boat and well capable. It is 7 years old and and with the original gear onboard. It is a comfortable sea boat and sails well. The woodwork is good quality and heavy not like the newer boats with light plywood. We have cut a hatch in part of the cockpit step area and were impressed with the thickness of layup.

The newer boats are no where near as well built as mine.

 

[jonjo]

Re: depreciation

[ QUOTE ]
So, there is also an argument that might be made (although not validated in any way I hasten to add) that there is no reason for the quality levels to be any lower than some of their closer competitors..... n ést pas vrais?

[/ QUOTE ]
What you say could be true, Bavaria could have led the industry and produced Jeanneau quality at at 80% the price but unfortunately they strove for another 10% saving and as a consequence they have undermined the brand image.

I marvel at the way some of the internal structures of my Bavaria fit together, it is simple and cost effective but ultimately strong, AND there is no MDF in sight nor is it stuck together with mastic.

Conversely other things make me angry. The original Match 35 spec included Lewmar 44 primaries but they shipped with 40's which even according to Lewmar's selection chart are not upto the job of handling a 400 sq ft genoa. The bolting of the hull deck joint demonstrates inspired thinking from a production efficiency point of view according to an ex Westerly production manager visiting my boat but ultimately I don't trust the solution and over the next few winters I will replace the screws with proper bolts. Bavaria use a screw where the 1st third is shaped like a drill bit, this allows the operator to both tap and then immediately torque up the 80 or so bolts along the toe rail.