Strange colregs question

[ColleyV8]

I'm berthed at Cardiff Bay, take the boat out and okay the normal college passage rules

Going from barrage to Cardiff City most boats will comply as well

However, the bay has rib operators for tourism that make maneuvers that you can't anticipate,

What is the response at helm to these boats, should I just stay on track and let them do as they want

 

[superheat6k]

Generally a fast moving an unpredictable boat will (or at least should !) be taking account of the other boats he (or she) is annoying (sorry avoiding !). So best just to stand on with caution - easy for a RIB at speed to ignore the bits about: 'make your intentions clear', 'manoeuvre early and in good time', 'safe speed', and 'stand on vessel'.

 

[Portland Billy]

Where by any of these rules a vessel is required to alter course to avoid collision the other should keep her course and speed - wording from rules a long time ago .
But I think still applies.
But goes further to imply you must also take action if required.
I did my 'tickets' over fifty years ago so may be a bit dated.

 

[LittleSister]

If someone else is failing to obey the rules (whether e.g. the crossing rules or 'safe speed' rules in the sort of situation you describe) you are under a ColRegs obligation to make any manoeuvre necessary to avoid a collision.

The differential in speed can make the latter ineffective, and the relatively quick changes of direction of some fast boats can make difficult knowing what particular changes in speed or direction you should be prepared and ready to make.

Generally speaking, I think the best you can do in such situations is to hold steady your course and speed, but keep watching the blighters and be ready to make a rapid course and/or speed alteration if they get it wrong - even if, because of the speed differential that could only limit the damage resulting from a collision (especially to people) rather than avoid it altogether.

(As a raggie, one often finds oneself with the great speed difference conundrum in relation to mobos.)

 

[srm]

Having read a number of MAIB accident reports I get the impression that when it comes to a collision between two vessels they usually describe faults in the actions of both parties.

Rule 17 (b) puts the responsibilty on both vessels to avoid collision:

"Rule 17
"Action by stand-on vessel
. . . . . . .
"(b) When, from any cause, the vessel required to keep her course and speed finds herself so close that
collision cannot be avoided by the action of the give-way vessel alone, she shall take such action
as will best aid to avoid collision."

The advice given on MN deck officer courses that I was involved in was that should a collision be unavoidable try to turn for a near parallel impact to minimise damage.

Should anyone be interested full colregs here:
http://www.collisionregs.com/MSN1781.pdf

 

[LittleSister]

As per srm's post.

Also relevant (plus, potentially, not a few others!) -
'Rule 5 - Look-out
Every vessel shall at all times maintain a proper look-out by sight and hearing as well as by all available means appropriate in the prevailing circumstances and conditions so as to make a full appraisal of the situation and of the risk of collision.'

'Rule 8 - Action to avoid collision
. . . (e) If necessary to avoid collision or allow more time to assess the situation, a vessel shall slacken her speed or take all way off by stopping or reversing her means of propulsion.'

 

[LittleSister]

An aspect of the application of the rules to such a situation as described by the OP that I'm not clear about is as follows. Any suggestions/insights?

A relatively fast manoeuvrable boat is zipping about one's own slower boat, and apparently treating it as an obstruction, i.e. assuming one's own boat will maintain a steady course and speed, then working around that. Plodding (relatively speaking) onward and maintaining a predictable steady course & speed seems the safest and most sensible course of action.

The other boat's actions, though, if interpreted literally against the rules at any particular moment, may well see one's own boat switch back and forth between stand-on vessel and give-way vessel depending on the other boat's heading, speed, and/or relative position which may well be changing moment by moment, for which the rules would appear to demand course alterations every time one became the give-way vessel, even though this would, on the face of it seem to introduce a whole new set of unpredictability into the situation.

Or to put it another way, if one maintains a steady course speed on the assumption (!) that the other boat is 'working around you', but the other boat collides with you having created by its latest turn or speed alteration a situation in which you have quickly become the give-way boat, where do the rules leave you in the ensuing apportionment of blame?

 

[tico]

Last time that happened (dive boat approaching from Port) 5x horn blasts got his attention as well as the harbourmaster who got on the VHF smartish to admonish him.

 

[oldgit]

They seem to manage on the congested Thames especially around Tower Bridge.
Half dozen or more ribs whizzing around on busy days.
Then add in................
Enormous sight-seeing boats.
Tugs towing rubbish barges.
Small craft attending the various construction works.
Police Targas.
PLA vessels.
Small coasters/barges.
Uber Clippers.
Canoers/Kayakers.
Rowers.
The odd narrowboat.
and some rather worried leisure boat skippers.

 

[snowbird30ds]

What sort of manoeuvres are you meaning? Do they come up behind and play on your wash?
This happens quite often with the trip boat out of southwold, I just give them a thumbs up and stand on and let them play.

 

[srm]

The other boat's actions, though, if interpreted literally against the rules at any particular moment, may well see one's own boat switch back and forth between stand-on vessel and give-way vessel depending on the other boat's heading, speed, and/or relative position which may well be changing moment by moment, for which the rules would appear to demand course alterations every time one became the give-way vessel, even though this would, on the face of it seem to introduce a whole new set of unpredictability into the situation.

The steering rules only apply "where there is a risk of collision". If the slower vessel makes a judgement that a (high speed) vessel will pass ahead or astern there is no risk of collision and no need to take avoiding action.

Perhaps not directly applicable but when teaching use of radar and colregs to MN deck officer candidates we would put them in positions where they had to alter for one vessel and apparently breach the rules by turning towards another vessel. Such an alteration was within the rules provided that the alteration did not create a risk of collision with the third vessel.

Of course, should there be a collision there is likely to be (in the UK) an MAIB investigation. All part of the fun and responsibility of being skipper.

 

[superheat6k]

An aspect of the application of the rules to such a situation as described by the OP that I'm not clear about is as follows. Any suggestions/insights?

A relatively fast manoeuvrable boat is zipping about one's own slower boat, and apparently treating it as an obstruction, i.e. assuming one's own boat will maintain a steady course and speed, then working around that. Plodding (relatively speaking) onward and maintaining a predictable steady course & speed seems the safest and most sensible course of action.

The other boat's actions, though, if interpreted literally against the rules at any particular moment, may well see one's own boat switch back and forth between stand-on vessel and give-way vessel depending on the other boat's heading, speed, and/or relative position which may well be changing moment by moment, for which the rules would appear to demand course alterations every time one became the give-way vessel, even though this would, on the face of it seem to introduce a whole new set of unpredictability into the situation.

Or to put it another way, if one maintains a steady course speed on the assumption (!) that the other boat is 'working around you', but the other boat collides with you having created by its latest turn or speed alteration a situation in which you have quickly become the give-way boat, where do the rules leave you in the ensuing apportionment of blame?

A give way vessel cannot make it self stand on by action of solely its own manoeuvre - rule 17 d - explains this. However, this vessel is already in breach of rule 6 - safe speed; rule 7 risk of collision, and is generally being a dickhead.

So the cold comfort is that if the idiot does cause a collision he will have some explaining to do to the MAIB who will be pleased to put him before the Magistrates. So as soon as you observe the antics get out your phone camera and start filming as this will provide ample evidence of his idiocy before an incident.

Many years ago when I had a slow sailing boat creeping along at 3 - 4 knots, an idiot in a RIB mis calculated its turn and effectively ended up hard alongside me, and the only reason there was no damage was because he was made of rubber.

He had broken so many rules and provided nil time at all for me to do anything under rule 17.

I did report him to the Coastguard, but the Rib had no name to report specifically. Had I ever found him he would have found his RIB very very deflated (by means I cannot explain on here !!!).

 

[ColleyV8]

Thanks for all the replies, sorry haven't been on to respond.

These are the tourism boats that probably have a preset course they like to use but show no attention to other boats in the vicinity

Several times trying to open the engine up to give it a blast, going straight at about 30knts the rib, and 10 passengers zig zag across going from stand on to give way vessel,

I do maintain a good watch, but can get tiresome of trying to see what they are doing.

 

[chrishscorp]

I'm berthed at Cardiff Bay, take the boat out and okay the normal college passage rules

Going from barrage to Cardiff City most boats will comply as well

However, the bay has rib operators for tourism that make maneuvers that you can't anticipate,

What is the response at helm to these boats, should I just stay on track and let them do as they want

Have some experience of Cardiff Bay. I presume there is still NO speed limit in parts of the bay ?

I was on the inflatable modular pontoons when one of these d### h###s went by I dropped the trolley I was pushing and had to get on my hands and knees on the pontoon as the wake went through If I hadnt I would have been in the water.
Some of these RIBS do travel very very fast and pull high speed turns or figures of eight with the aim of getting their occupants to scream, the louder the better.

 

[Bouba]

The vessels concerned are providing passengers with a thrill…the problem is if it’s a legal thrill, barely legal thrill or illegal thrill. While I always obey the Colregs…my slow trawler can’t out manoeuvre a jet ski or any fast boat…my feeling is that if I maintain a steady speed and direction then I am not surprising the other skipper who has to react quicker than I can…and then hope a judge agrees with me

 

[Wansworth]

Maintain speed and direction in compliance with colleges,if in doubt actually stop if not sure other craft is properly under command…..make note in log book recording observed activity.

 

[ColleyV8]

Thanks, chrishscorp, yep, only 5 knts near the yacht clubs, flat out for the rest

 

[Bouba]

The problem with Colregs is that they are designed for vessels making passage…they obviously thought of sailing vessels tacking but not hooligans in speed boats. I blame Turbinia

 

[chrishscorp]

Thanks, chrishscorp, yep, only 5 knts near the yacht clubs, flat out for the rest

It is somewhat mad as there are mixed users of the bay, it could be a dinghy, a yacht, a MOBO or it could be a paddle boarder or Kayaker mixed in the same patch of enclosed water as someone in a RIB with 2, 3 or 400HP on the back giving full welly.