Stop that boat

[stranded]

Recently we were discussing safety at sea and stupid decisions that resulted in the loss of lives. I wondered if anyone on this forum ever came across a situation when the decision for a ship leaving port was considered more or less suicidal because of that particular crew on that particular ship in that particular (weather) situation. Such a decision not only affects the crew itself, but amongst others also the RNLI who will have to put their people at risk in a potential rescue attempt. In advance of course nobody knows the outcome of such a decision which can be positive out of sheer luck. Also there is this "who are you to prevent me from leaving port". Legally it is not always possible to prevent a (non-commercial) ship from leaving port, but there are these rare cases when it would be "better for everyone" when a ship can be stopped at the sole discretion of e.g. a harbour master. Stopped as in more than a recommendation, but halted against the will of the skipper. "Discretion" obviously implies a grey area, just as deciding on the (in)sanity of a skippers decision. Great explorers made insane decisions just as well.

Basically this boils down to the question if people on non-commercial boats with little or no experience can be protected by others from "insane decisions" and if so where do we draw the line? Or do we consider every decision as their choice no matter the outcome?

Sadly, if Covid taught us anything, it is that there is no class of person who can be entrusted to exercise discretionary power wisely. So we would be wise to give them as little power as possible, and keep a very close eye on their exercise of those powers they do claim to have.

 

[RupertW]

Three lives might not have been lost if someone had stopped this one from sailing:

https://assets.digital.cabinet-office.gov.uk/media/547c7014e5274a428d00006f/LastCallReport.pdf

The lifeboat crew started preparing to launch as soon as they saw the vessel heading for the harbour entrance.

It is very sad but just proves the point that boating should have minimum rules as poor training and mistakes lead to learning or death rather than harm to others. I wouldn’t legislate for fools.

 

[ShinyShoe]

It is very sad but just proves the point that boating should have minimum rules as poor training and mistakes lead to learning or death rather than harm to others. I wouldn’t legislate for fools.

Minimum training for road use doesn't stop people having road accidents.

It *may* reduce the risk, but certainly doesn't eliminate it. It's also *possible* it initially increases risk -- in that "I've passed my test, I know how to drive now" mode...

 

[Stemar]

You can't train the stupid out of people.

It doesn't take training, which can only ever be pretty general, to take a look outside and decide that it's a good day for the pub, just a grain or two of (un)common sense.

 

[DanTribe]

on a more local and personal level, we were anchored at Iken on the Alde and my son then 12 and daughter 8 went exploring in the outboard dinghy. After a while I went looking for them in a Topper.
I found them at Snape in serious conversation with a man and two kids.The guy was trying to reach Orford in a small plastic inflatable bought from a beach shop, no lifejackets. Son had found them aground a mile below the quay and towed them back but the guy insisted he was going to try again. Being only 12, he wouldn't listen to my son's advice and it took some serious talking to dissuade him.
Apparently the wife had dropped them at Snape and driven to Orford to meet them. He insisted he had almost made it because he could see buildings. That was probably Iken farm and Church.

 

[Mark-1]

Sadly, if Covid taught us anything, it is that there is no class of person who can be entrusted to exercise discretionary power wisely. So we would be wise to give them as little power as possible, and keep a very close eye on their exercise of those powers they do claim to have.

My boat was behind a lock gate over covid and the marina took the decision to keep the gate closed. So my boat was effectively impounded by the marina for my safety and the safety of the public.

I'm not sure a marina should be making that decision any more than anyone else other than me. (Which isn't to say it was the wrong decision, merely that it shouldn't have been *their* decision.)

 

[capnsensible]

My boat was behind a lock gate over covid and the marina took the decision to keep the gate closed. So my boat was effectively impounded by the marina for my safety and the safety of the public.

I'm not sure a marina should be making that decision any more than anyone else other than me. (Which isn't to say it was the wrong decision, merely that it shouldn't have been *their* decision.)

Was it the marina gaffer that decided or was he told to by a health authority?

 

[penberth3]

My boat was behind a lock gate over covid and the marina took the decision to keep the gate closed. So my boat was effectively impounded by the marina for my safety and the safety of the public.

I'm not sure a marina should be making that decision any more than anyone else other than me. (Which isn't to say it was the wrong decision, merely that it shouldn't have been *their* decision.)

It's the Marina's responsibility to interpret the law and make the decision.

 

[Mark-1]

Was it the marina gaffer that decided or was he told to by a health authority?

I don't know but I do know that they changed the policy on the same day that it was clarified that sailing was allowed. (After an email exchange with me, and I'm sure some others.)

So I know the decision to reopen was the Marina's decision not the health authority which suggests the decision to close was the Marina's too.

But I'm making a general point about where the decision should lie.

 

[Mark-1]

It's the Marina's responsibility to interpret the law and make the decision.

It bloody well isn't. There was nothing in the rules imposing any obligations on the marina whatsoever.

 

[penberth3]

We met and spoke to 'Captain Calamity' in Falmouth about twenty years ago. He was a daft American in a small boat who had already been rescued by the RNLI at least twice. It would have been better for everyone if he had been prevented from sailing because he was totally oblivious to his own incompetence and his affect on others. I never heard what became of him.

More recently a trio of Americans arrived in Cornwall. I think they'd had nine CG/RNLI interventions on their way down from Scotland. Fortunately the boat fell over at its mooring resulting in a fire and more assistance at public expense. That's when the plan to cross the Atlantic was abandoned, they should really have been stopped earlier.

 

[capnsensible]

Perhaps the next time there's a global pandemic, measures to contain it will be promulgated in a more credible fashion.

Or not......

 

[Chiara’s slave]

I know of an accident in 1992 where my decision would have been not to set off, and if I had, not to be in the Needles fairway in the ebb tide. The boat, a Robert Clarke yawl built 8n the 1950s, sank with the loss of 1 life. The owner has made a number of questionable decisions about various things since. Not a fool, just not a good decision maker. For better or worse, he’s never been to sea as skipper since.

 

[westernman]

Some years ago I left Port Vendres in a storm force Tramontane.
The harbour master would have stopped me leaving if he had the authority. I think he had actually called the Gendarme as well.

Any case, we eventually managed to motor out of the harbour (full throttle on the engine) into the storm. We actually went back wards in the gusts.

I knew exactly what was waiting for us once we got clear of the harbour. I had climbed to the top of the hill on the coast next to the harbour and had checked out the conditions with binoculars all along the coast. Almost flat seas and a very strong wind on the quarter. Turned the engine off and hit 4.5 knots under bare poles. We put up the stay sail and were then flying along at 9 knots. We went around the notorious Cap Bear with the deck still completely dry.

MiL at this point had started cooking a complicate Thai curry recipe. The ride was like a magic carpet. Smooth and exhilarating.

I was very proud of our docking at the destination. Wind still F7 on the stern, visitor parking on the port side. Loads of empty spaces so went down the side of the dock very close to the side, then turned very hard to starboard. Full power reverse then full power forward again. Then drifted gently side ways and parallel onto the boat already tied up.

The fasted sustained speed for a longish stretch of sailing I have done in my boat - and the most sail we had up was a small stay sail. Hankerchief size compared to the normal jib. A fantastic sail and we had the whole Mediterranean sea to ourselves.

 

[johnalison]

Some years ago I left Port Vendres in a storm force Tramontane.
The harbour master would have stopped me leaving if he had the authority. I think he had actually called the Gendarme as well.

Any case, we eventually managed to motor out of the harbour (full throttle on the engine) into the storm. We actually went back wards in the gusts.

I knew exactly what was waiting for us once we got clear of the harbour. I had climbed to the top of the hill on the coast next to the harbour and had checked out the conditions with binoculars all along the coast. Almost flat seas and a very strong wind on the quarter. Turned the engine off and hit 4.5 knots under bare poles. We put up the stay sail and were then flying along at 9 knots. We went around the notorious Cap Bear with the deck still completely dry.

MiL at this point had started cooking a complicate Thai curry recipe. The ride was like a magic carpet. Smooth and exhilarating.

I was very proud of our docking at the destination. Wind still F7 on the stern, visitor parking on the port side. Loads of empty spaces so went down the side of the dock very close to the side, then turned very hard to starboard. Full power reverse then full power forward again. Then drifted gently side ways and parallel onto the boat already tied up.

The fasted sustained speed for a longish stretch of sailing I have done in my boat - and the most sail we had up was a small stay sail. Hankerchief size compared to the normal jib. A fantastic sail and we had the whole Mediterranean sea to ourselves.

As you imply, it’s the sea state that matters, not whatever the wind might do. My experience of setting out in a gale is limited to a short trip from Terneuzen to Breskens in a fully established F8. The Dutch all around us thought we were mad to set off but a couple of hours on a reach in flat water with a scrap of sail was really just like any other sail, if a lot noisier.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

As you imply, it’s the sea state that matters, not whatever the wind might do. My experience of setting out in a gale is limited to a short trip from Terneuzen to Breskens in a fully established F8. The Dutch all around us thought we were mad to set off but a couple of hours on a reach in flat water with a scrap of sail was really just like any other sail, if a lot noisier.

It’s a big advantage in the Solent. It can be short and steep, but ultimately the size of the waves is limited by the lack of fetch. It can feel pretty bad in a 20ft dayboat, but just a modest yacht these days of 30ft or so and it's fine. The Red Jet cat is running today with gusts over 40kn. I’m about to get on it.

 

[davidej]

I was crewing on a 41 footer leaving Dover for the CIs in fog. As we were leaving the harbour a HM launch came up a advised us not to go. The Skipper pointed out that it had radar and he was well experienced in the Channel in such conditions. We pressed on and had an uneventful voyage.

 

[johnalison]

One memorable trip was when we left from Brighton to Cherbourg in in Sadler 29. We were in company with a couple in a Trpper 501 and it was blowing all day and night. We got up at six and decided to go for it as the wind was from the north and expected to settle but our friend’s autopilot was faulty and he didn’t want to go without it. The trip was hardly epic by forum standards but was a good F7 when we left under a small jib, which we had to ncrease in stages until I had the spinnaker up. Even that didn’t last long and we ended up motoring. My chief memory is of the lunchtime long-wave forecast in which they reported a F7 at the Royal Sovereign, while we were in a flat calm only fifty miles away.

 

[Lodestone]

It is always wise to listen to well meant advice - especially when it comes from someone with experience and/or some authority on the matter. It is up to the individual to assess their use of that advice provided their ultimate decision does no one else - unwitting - harm.

I'll borrow from a very well respected pioneer of mixed gas diving who wrote:
"You have the obligation to inform one honestly of the risk, and as a person you are committed to educate yourself to the total risk in any activity. Once informed and aware of risk, every fool has the right to kill or injure themselves as they see'fit'. The double edged sword to this is the person who accepts risk must take precuation not to entice others to push the envelope with them".

 

[Frank Holden]

In Chile the armada controls every thing on , in , or under the sea.
They will close ports When they think fit. Down to the large numbers of small fishing boats.
They can be a bit tardy in re opening.
Which is why I avoid Melinka and use an uncontrolled anchorage close south.