Steel boat as a long-term liveaboard (in a warm(er) climate).

[Brent Swain]

Trying to have an adult debate with you is like trying to nail a jellyfish to a wall.

We do have GRP warships-minesweepers, FYI.

The debate, as you well know but will not answer, was about workboats, not ships.

It must be hard having such a narrow view of the world and sailing in particular.

I agree with much of what you say, especially your excellent ideas for corrosion resistance and use of simple equipment to build good useable vessels from shaped steel.

But, you must agree, if their was merit in large scale production of vessels in the way you promote commercially, someone would be doing it. The demand is obviously not there.

It is being done with aluminium in NZ-several companies offer precut pieces for home assembly and welding.

It is clear that those who dont want to use a steel boat built the way you suggest have a perfect right to choose whatever material they like for their vessel-even for full time use in rugged conditions.

By the way, I have sailed in Puget Sound and around Vancouver Island, its not that rugged really. Some bits of NZ are pretty rugged too-as is the Atlantic Coast of Ireland.

Aluminium can be a great boat building material; for those who can afford the high cost of an inside building site, and the tripleing of the cost of basic materials and tools.
Aluminium decks on warships seemed a great idea ,until the Falklands war, and the Antelope disaster brought reality back in focus . Funny how reality has a way of doing that sometimes! Plastic has the same liability.
The Mounties had several 50 ft catamarans built here, which are giving them constant corrosion problems ,some looking like Swiss cheese, as they fizzle away. Much replacement of hull plate needed. Very hard to find effective antifouling which wont eat it.
Yes , people are free to chose whatever building methods they please, as they have the right to be made aware of methods which reduce building time by up to 90%, with poroportionate reduction in costs, and better results . They have the right to know that a hull and deck can be put together in a week, and not necessarily take months or years. They have the right to know that one does not have to be rich to cruise in a safe boat, far safer than most plastic production boats.
Meta had a production run of steel boats , sister ships to Miotessier's Joshua.
I remember seeing a picture in French Magazine, in Tahiti, of several in a production line. There were around 7 of them in Papeete at the time.
Yes ,New Zealand and Ireland have some rugged coast , as does the North coast of BC and the west coast of Haida Gwai and Vancouver Island .
Only the latter have a lot of huge logs to run into in the middle of the night, with nothing for parts and repair nearby .
Hauraki Gulf and the stretch from Auckland to the Bay of Islands is pretty mellow, if you avoid strong easterlies, easy to do with their far more accurate weather forecasts ( thanks to having Australia to windward.) No shortage of people and repair facilities along that coast.

 

[Brent Swain]

Great idea , Ta. Also will be a tidy solution to having the option for some legs with a couple of brackets and welded M16 nuts to mount them on deck.


.

For sheerlegs, I use stainless sch 40 pipe sockets welded in flush , at the chines, with a stainless cap on top, gusseted in to the top sides, inside. That lets you push the sheerleg in the socket from a dinghy, and tie them to a stanchion ,before drying out. That makes for much shorter legs than running them from the sheer. It also keeps them in place, with no need for lines to keep them in place while the tide falls. I like to weld 12mm SS acorn nuts two feet in front of them and two feet inboard of them.That lets me bolt braces on them at low tide, if I plan to stay a while. Oval shaped pads with holes in them, on the bottom, let me nail a plank on, for softer ground.
Run them vertically , not flared out , at the bottom. The force on them is vertical.

 

[rotrax]

Aluminium can be a great boat building material; for those who can afford the high cost of an inside building site, and the tripleing of the cost of basic materials and tools.
Aluminium decks on warships seemed a great idea ,until the Falklands war, and the Antelope disaster brought reality back in focus . Funny how reality has a way of doing that sometimes! Plastic has the same liability.
The Mounties had several 50 ft catamarans built here, which are giving them constant corrosion problems ,some looking like Swiss cheese, as they fizzle away. Much replacement of hull plate needed. Very hard to find effective antifouling which wont eat it.
Yes , people are free to chose whatever building methods they please, as they have the right to be made aware of methods which reduce building time by up to 90%, with poroportionate reduction in costs, and better results . They have the right to know that a hull and deck can be put together in a week, and not necessarily take months or years. They have the right to know that one does not have to be rich to cruise in a safe boat, far safer than most plastic production boats.
Meta had a production run of steel boats , sister ships to Miotessier's Joshua.
I remember seeing a picture in French Magazine, in Tahiti, of several in a production line. There were around 7 of them in Papeete at the time.
Yes ,New Zealand and Ireland have some rugged coast , as does the North coast of BC and the west coast of Haida Gwai and Vancouver Island .
Only the latter have a lot of huge logs to run into in the middle of the night, with nothing for parts and repair nearby .
Hauraki Gulf and the stretch from Auckland to the Bay of Islands is pretty mellow, if you avoid strong easterlies, easy to do with their far more accurate weather forecasts ( thanks to having Australia to windward.) No shortage of people and repair facilities along that coast.

Things have moved on a bit Brent. In the world outside BC the costs between an alloy boat and a steel one wont be too different. We have established quite clearly that DIY in BC gets away with the H&S and Enviomental issues that the populated world has to cope with.

There are no problems with antifoul for aluminium boats-it is important to choose the right type. Cuprous oxide is to be avoided.

Perhaps the mounties got something wrong with their alloy cats-in the same way I have seen steel boats corroding away
on many a mooring. They obviously were not built using best practice-or the mounties used used the wrong antifoul.................

A piece of copper wire inside an alloy boat in contact with the hull/superstructure and moisture is effectivly a galvanic cell, with all the negatives that go with that issue.

I agree that floating logs can be a severe handicap to safe navigation in your waters. Many are on their way to pulp mills ot sawmills and are being towed by tugs. A little more regulation of that industry might be in order.

The section of NZ from Napier down is pretty bleak, as is the West Coast below Auckland. Not too many safe havens there-or repair facilities.

NZ alloy boats-from 5 metre trailer boats to 20 metre cray boats and ferries-are very common here. NZ vie's with Finland for having the highest number of boats per capita of population. There must be 40 or so alloy trailer boats in Evans Bay Marina and Boat Club.

They, upon recent inspection, dont appear to me to be " Fizzing away ". Nor do the ones permanently in the water.

But there are loads of rusty steel boats with unsightly rust red streaks running down their hulls.

 

[ianabc]

Royal Canadian Mounted Police catamarans were built with faulty aluminium plate.

BUT that was a long time ago as they are being replaced.

Were in service 1991 to 2016


Aluminium plate provided in 1991 ( 27 years ago)

was part of a bad batch from mill.

 

[rotrax]

Royal Canadian Mounted Police catamarans were built with faulty aluminium plate.

BUT that was a long time ago as they are being replaced.

Were in service 1991 to 2016


Aluminium plate provided in 1991 ( 27 years ago)

was part of a bad batch from mill.

Thanks for that.

I am surprised BS did not have that info-but when you think about it it would not fit his agenda to make excuses for a vessel made from anything other than steel.

 

[GHA]

For sheerlegs, I use stainless sch 40 pipe sockets welded in flush , at the chines, with a stainless cap on top, gusseted in to the top sides, inside. That lets you push the sheerleg in the socket from a dinghy, and tie them to a stanchion ,before drying out. That makes for much shorter legs than running them from the sheer. It also keeps them in place, with no need for lines to keep them in place while the tide falls. I like to weld 12mm SS acorn nuts two feet in front of them and two feet inboard of them.That lets me bolt braces on them at low tide, if I plan to stay a while. Oval shaped pads with holes in them, on the bottom, let me nail a plank on, for softer ground.
Run them vertically , not flared out , at the bottom. The force on them is vertical.

Wondering about a stainless doubler plate welded to the deck with capped off stainless con nut below - ever tried something like this?

 

[Brent Swain]

Things have moved on a bit Brent. In the world outside BC the costs between an alloy boat and a steel one wont be too different. We have established quite clearly that DIY in BC gets away with the H&S and Enviomental issues that the populated world has to cope with.

There are no problems with antifoul for aluminium boats-it is important to choose the right type. Cuprous oxide is to be avoided.

Perhaps the mounties got something wrong with their alloy cats-in the same way I have seen steel boats corroding away
on many a mooring. They obviously were not built using best practice-or the mounties used used the wrong antifoul.................

A piece of copper wire inside an alloy boat in contact with the hull/superstructure and moisture is effectivly a galvanic cell, with all the negatives that go with that issue.

I agree that floating logs can be a severe handicap to safe navigation in your waters. Many are on their way to pulp mills ot sawmills and are being towed by tugs. A little more regulation of that industry might be in order.

The section of NZ from Napier down is pretty bleak, as is the West Coast below Auckland. Not too many safe havens there-or repair facilities.

NZ alloy boats-from 5 metre trailer boats to 20 metre cray boats and ferries-are very common here. NZ vie's with Finland for having the highest number of boats per capita of population. There must be 40 or so alloy trailer boats in Evans Bay Marina and Boat Club.

They, upon recent inspection, dont appear to me to be " Fizzing away ". Nor do the ones permanently in the water.

But there are loads of rusty steel boats with unsightly rust red streaks running down their hulls.

It is easy for anyone to test your theory about the comparative costs of aluminium vs steel. Just phone any aluminium boat builder, and ask him if he could put together a 36 ft aluminium hull and deck for the $17K I did it for, including all materials, rent and my time. Ask him if he could get the materials for the $9K of a steel one. Last time we asked ,when the steel was $6K CDN, aluminiumn was $20K CDN.
Ask any welding supplier if he could sell you the welder for the $350 CDN of a buzzbox. Then see if you could pay the rent on a building site for the $20 a month it cost my friend. One friend did build a nice aluminium boat outside, but had to wait a long time for the flat calm , dry weather it needed for aluminium welding. Took him a long time.

Living as I do, with an environmental foot print which is microscopic compared to that of a dirt dwellers, your claims about environmental damage is political smoke and mirrors, scapegoating of the most convenient easy target.
Lower population means we have more freedom to do as we please, with minimal consequences.
How do you get there ?
Make fewer people (done that)!
Step one? Find out what is causing them!
Already made them? That puts the consequences of your irresponsibility on all of us.
A coin , or trimmings from any wiring, dropped unnoticed in an aluminium boat, will corrode it's way right thru. No such surprises, in steel.

The mounties had some of the top experts in the world making their decisions for them.They arrogantly told me that, when I made a suggestion.
Alloy boats which spend most of their time on trailers in back yards, are not likely to have much trouble with electrolysis, in the little time they are in the water.
Not many boats cruise in the open Atearoa coasts you mention. No reason to go there. Not much for harbours of any kind.
Rusty red streaks show, and warn you well in advance . White aluminium ones don't, and thus catch alloy boat owners off guard.

 

[Brent Swain]

Wondering about a stainless doubler plate welded to the deck with capped off stainless con nut below - ever tried something like this?

Yes, that would work well. The stainless plate would stop a flogging block from chipping paint from mild steel around the nut. That is why I like a bit of stainless plate under welded down pad eyes.

 

[Brent Swain]

Thanks for that.

I am surprised BS did not have that info-but when you think about it it would not fit his agenda to make excuses for a vessel made from anything other than steel.

Aluminium is a great boat building material; for the rich. It is not as good choice for a back yard builder,or anyone who is not rich. Of course "yottieness" means assuming all boaters are rich, and paying zero attention to the two biggest hurdles wanna be cruisers face , time and money.
It is far easier to screw up a weld on aluminium than on steel ,which is far more forgiving.
The mountie excuse is just that, a coverup for their screwups. Their corrosion problems began decades ago, shortly after launching .They have been fighting them ever since.
A retired mountie was not surprised by their screwups, and told me of major corruption they were forced to cover up, in the building of those boats.

 

[rotrax]

Aluminium is a great boat building material; for the rich. It is not as good choice for a back yard builder,or anyone who is not rich. Of course "yottieness" means assuming all boaters are rich, and paying zero attention to the two biggest hurdles wanna be cruisers face , time and money.
It is far easier to screw up a weld on aluminium than on steel ,which is far more forgiving.
The mountie excuse is just that, a coverup for their screwups. Their corrosion problems began decades ago, shortly after launching .They have been fighting them ever since.
A retired mountie was not surprised by their screwups, and told me of major corruption they were forced to cover up, in the building of those boats.

Once again I am totally done with debate with you.

You cannot see-or are at least not prepared to examine-any other viewpoint but your own.

From the whole of this debate, if we except some of your really good ideas which have significant merit, you have shown yourself to have a really well balanced personality.

You have a huge chip on BOTH shoulders.........................................

Goodbye Brent.

 

[Brent Swain]

Once again I am totally done with debate with you.

You cannot see-or are at least not prepared to examine-any other viewpoint but your own.

From the whole of this debate, if we except some of your really good ideas which have significant merit, you have shown yourself to have a really well balanced personality.

You have a huge chip on BOTH shoulders.........................................

Goodbye Brent.

Just telling it like it is, based on my 45 years of mostly full time cruising experience, putting together over 3 dozen steel boats, maintaining, cruising in and living aboard steel boats for 42 years,and feedback from designs of mine, many times that number, out cruising. If what I have learned from that contrasts with old wives tales about steel boats,it is not my experience which is at fault, it is the fault of the old wives tales, spread by plastic boat fans .

 

[Brent Swain]

Be aware that any steel poking thru the foam will drip condensation like a leaky faucett, in cold weather. On my last boat ,I made the mistake of trimming the foam flush with deck beams and stringers. On a cold nights, I could see them in the form of condensation and sometimes ice, on the paneling. Later, they showed up as black lines on the paneling. Since then I have always left a half inch of foam over any such flat bars. A single acorn nut poking thru the foam will drip condensation like a leaky faucet. Make sure every sq mm is covered.

 

[rogerthebodger]

Once again I am totally done with debate with you.

You cannot see-or are at least not prepared to examine-any other viewpoint but your own.

From the whole of this debate, if we except some of your really good ideas which have significant merit, you have shown yourself to have a really well balanced personality.

You have a huge chip on BOTH shoulders.........................................

Goodbye Brent.

The biggest problem with Brent is if he has not invented it its no good.

 

[rotrax]

Nothing to do with the OP, but all to do with our steel boat fanatic who is fixated on his philosophy that only a steel boat built and maintained his way is any good-all else is to be dismissed as NBG.

He tried to highjack the " Are Island Packets Yachts worth it " thread.

He, like this one, added nothing of value to the matter under debate/disscussion/ reveiw, but let himself down badly with incorrect, uninformed and patently flawed comment.

His self described low carbon, semi retired at 22 years old and lived aboard and sailed the Pacific ever since on an inexpensive home built steel boat only allows him to comment authoritively on that particular subject, which, to be frank does not interest me in the slightest. Island Packet yachts are so far out of his direct experience they may as well be on the moon.

The question I am asking-and you will have seen that I have been as guilty as any-why are we suckered into trying to have a mature debate with one who has proved that it is impossible to debate/discuss/reason with.

Anyone like to propose why we are almost compelled to put sensible stuff to him which is always ignored or rejected?

If half of what BS assures us he has achieved in sailing and boatbuilding is true, serious respect.

But IS it true?

I am begining to doubt it.

 

[lpdsn]

To be honest I thought BrentSwain wasn't as bad here as I'd seen on other forums. He got himself banned from SA. Any idiot can get himself banned from YBW but getting banned from SA is as difficult as winning the Nobel Prize.

As you say, he does hi-jack and disrupt threads and talks a lot of rubbish, and I too seriously doubt all his tales are true, but I have also seen him (occasionally) offer welcome advice to forumites. I'm afraid though that you and others are going to have to continue pulling him up on the rubbish otherwise people will fall for it if it goes unchallenged.

 

[NormanS]

Nothing to do with the OP, but all to do with our steel boat fanatic who is fixated on his philosophy that only a steel boat built and maintained his way is any good-all else is to be dismissed as NBG.

He tried to highjack the " Are Island Packets Yachts worth it " thread.

He, like this one, added nothing of value to the matter under debate/disscussion/ reveiw, but let himself down badly with incorrect, uninformed and patently flawed comment.

His self described low carbon, semi retired at 22 years old and lived aboard and sailed the Pacific ever since on an inexpensive home built steel boat only allows him to comment authoritively on that particular subject, which, to be frank does not interest me in the slightest. Island Packet yachts are so far out of his direct experience they may as well be on the moon.

The question I am asking-and you will have seen that I have been as guilty as any-why are we suckered into trying to have a mature debate with one who has proved that it is impossible to debate/discuss/reason with.

Anyone like to propose why we are almost compelled to put sensible stuff to him which is always ignored or rejected?

If half of what BS assures us he has achieved in sailing and boatbuilding is true, serious respect.

But IS it true?

I am begining to doubt it.

It must be wonderful to feel so superior.

 

[rotrax]

It must be wonderful to feel so superior.

Are you refering to me or BS in the above reply?

 

[Brent Swain]

Nothing to do with the OP, but all to do with our steel boat fanatic who is fixated on his philosophy that only a steel boat built and maintained his way is any good-all else is to be dismissed as NBG.

He tried to highjack the " Are Island Packets Yachts worth it " thread.

He, like this one, added nothing of value to the matter under debate/disscussion/ reveiw, but let himself down badly with incorrect, uninformed and patently flawed comment.


Incorrect based on what Rotax? Your steel boat building ,designing, decades of steelboat building, maintaining, living aboard , and mostly full time cruising in steel boats?
So do tell us , Rotax, of the decades of such experience you have, and how many of your steel boat designs have been built, and out cruising for over 4 decades..Then we can gauge the value of your judgement ,on that info basis.

His self described low carbon, semi retired at 22 years old and lived aboard and sailed the Pacific ever since on an inexpensive home built steel boat only allows him to comment authoritively on that particular subject, which, to be frank does not interest me in the slightest. Island Packet yachts are so far out of his direct experience they may as well be on the moon.

The question I am asking-and you will have seen that I have been as guilty as any-why are we suckered into trying to have a mature debate with one who has proved that it is impossible to debate/discuss/reason with.

Anyone like to propose why we are almost compelled to put sensible stuff to him which is always ignored or rejected?

If half of what BS assures us he has achieved in sailing and boatbuilding is true, serious respect.

But IS it true?

I am begining to doubt it.

I have posted my Hawaii clearance paper, showing all the ports I visited, on that cruise alone, which Uncle Sam checks , and imprisons those who lie on them , along with photos from decades of cruising tropical S P acific anchorages, along with passport stamps. So give us similar proof of your vast cruising experience, before calling me a liar. I was of the understanding that such personal insults were not allowed on this site ( unless directed at me ,but no one else?)

It is you, Rotax, who reject the sensible stuff from someone with over 4 decades of cruising and boat building experience. Without that, you simply dont know what sensible is.
Your definition of "Sensible" is " Conforming with consumer sheeple group think." ( which keeps them working, and mimising their cruising freedom)

What you are implying Rotax , is; you know more about how I have spent the last 44 years than I do. Where does that leave your credibility?

 

[DownWest]

Brent, I am surprised you want to talk about credibility. Yours was busted completely over on SA.

 

[Brent Swain]

Brent, I am surprised you want to talk about credibility. Yours was busted completely over on SA.

Busted by who?
The guy who's alias is Smackdaddy, who's vast knowledge of seamanship is such that he lost his last boat in a lake, by tying it bow on to a concrete float with no spring lines, in an extremely exposed location, by cleats with no backup plates in thin fibreglass ? Who's only experience is lake sailing on tiny lakes, and one trip along the intracoastal waterway to Florida, where, after months of trying to get up the nerve to sail the 90 miles to the Bahamas, gave up, and stayed in the ditch to the Chesapeake? A guy with zero steel boat experience who claimed to know more about the subject than some one who has made 9 single handed Pacific crossings , maintained and lived aboard his own steel boats for over 40 years , and put together over 3 dozen of them over 40 years? Would you believe someone who has consistently claimed that that which has worked well for decades, including circumnavigations, Cape Horn ,the NW Passage , and extreme torture tests, " wont work." Someone who claims that plastic is stronger than steel?

Or his design guru , who claims the Amazon was his design( a Graham Shannon design) who has never owned, lived aboard, maintained nor crossed an ocean in any steel boat , or any boats for that matter. Who, despite years of being challenged to give evidence of his ever having cruised offshore, or done any serious amount of cruising ,boat building, living board or boat maintenance,has given none. Who has admitted that only 6 steel boats of his design have ever been built, some being Amazons, designed by another designer, yet claims some one with as much as 200 steel boats out cruising , highly successful boats, has it all wrong? . The only steel boat of his design I ever met was a 37 footer weighing 36,000 lbs according to is owner , which he calculated at 27,000 lbs, yet claims mine, at under 20,000lbs are too heavy?
Who criticizes designs on the basis of 'Resale Value" ,but who's latest design is for a 37 foot sailboat costing a million dollars, with zero chance of getting more than a tiny fraction of that back on resale price.
Who "engineered" a 50 lb bowsprit up to 175 lbs ,and ten times the cost?
Who's boating experience consists almost entirely of drawing pictures of them. Who's greatest skill lies not in steel boat design, or building ,but in decades of aggresive self promotion.
Almost all my critics on that site have zero steel boat experience, and minimal ,mostly zero steel boat building , maintaining, or long term live aboard or cruising experience .They are almost entirely, similar armchair experts.
So if you want to get your advice or pay $175 an hour for advice from a "Designer" or his groupies ,who's experience consists almost entirely of drawing pictures of boats , who tells you to ignore anything from someone who has done full time cruising, ocean crossings , and put together dozens of highly successful steel boats over 4 decades, go ahead. Ditto a $175 an hour source of advice, who charges that for his time, even when it's time spent attacking my posts online. Such gullibility does not make a good source of advice for anyone else seeking answers here.