Steel boat as a long-term liveaboard (in a warm(er) climate).

[Mr Cassandra]

It looks like you're very good at verbal diarrhea as well as steel boat building.

 

[DownWest]

Nope, it was a different thread. Only heard all the above from you, several times….

 

[Buck Turgidson]

Can't be bothered trawling through the last 50 pages of I'm right, you're wrong. Did the OP find a boat?
I'd have this one : https://www.apolloduck.com/boat.phtml?id=551364

 

[Brent Swain]

It looks like you're very good at verbal diarrhea as well as steel boat building.

"Very good at steel boat building" is all that really matters. Thanks for getting that right. People who I have built boats for, all strongly agree on that point. Their opinions greatly outweigh those of people who know nothing about them.

The Rustler looks a nice shape. Definite Folkboat influence. Nice to see wide side decks.

 

[Brent Swain]

Good luck with that BBG
BS doesn't answer questions, just promotes his ideas and slags off anybody who tries to reason with him. Not to mention libelous comments about professional steel boatbuilders.
The last post above, barely made sense and was hardly a reply to Mr E.
Reading a very long thread over on SA, several recognised designers offered to help him with calculations, when it became apparent that he had made none for his boats. Wasted their time, as did guys who actually had built several steel boats and reasonably questioned his time scales. He really does live in a different world, but might be part of the wider cruising community if he could be a bit less paranoid and learn some social skills.

So who were the guys on SA who had built "several" steel boats?
Name them? I didn't see any there. As with most steel boat discussions, 95% of the advice given was from those who had zero hands on experience on the subject.( plastic boat armchair experts).Metalboatsociety.org, the origamiboats site, and the metalboatsociety faceboook page is where you go to find people who build steel boats. None on SA, now that I am not there any more.
Time scales from those using 1950's methods are irrelevant to more modern, efficient building methods.That's like asking a horse and buggy guy to give time scales for airlines.
You say "social skills": are a better way of determining how much someone knows about boats, etc etc?
Aristotle said there are 3 kinds of people.
A. Those who just do, believe and think what every one else believes and thinks, and question, or challenge nothing. They ,being the vast majority of humanity, have lots of friends. They have what are called "Social skills."

B. Those who don't necessarily believe what everyone else believes, and have questions, but keep silent about them, for fear of losing their friends. Their numbers are far fewer. They have fewer "Social skills."

C. Those who don't automatically accept anything at face value, and question everything ,openly, while constantly seeking better ways of doing things. Being a tiny minority ,they have far fewer friends, but much deeper friendships. ( "no social skills" they call it.)
Bernie Made off had great social skills, as did the folks at Briex. ("just tell them what they want to hear"). So go find another Bernie Made off or Briex for your financial advice. Their "social skills" means they must be "Right" about everything else, according to your theory.
You remind me of a Kiwi building next to me, when I was building my first boat. He "believed" what ever the person he was talking to wanted him to say he believed. Some times, it was the exact opposite of what he told me he believed. He had "Good social skills"?"
Thus, a "reliable source of info"?
There are good designers, who design what the client wants. Great designers design what the client needs. Good designers sell far more plans than great designers.( those with "poor social skills"because they don't simply go along with everything, unquestioningly, and thus refuse to prostitute their craft).
No, I wont be part of misleading anyone on anything I don't believe in. To do that would be to have what you call;
"Good social skills."
If you value what you call "Good social skills "over truth and honesty, then I have no interest in being like that.

 

[DownWest]

Your post is a prime example of avoiding reasonable discussion and just spouting your odd view on things under the 'Truth and honesty', while promoting your ideas and 'designs'.
Anybody who read the thread in SA, can see the steel builders comments, along with the other posts, you just don't care to.

 

[Mister E]

So why do you insult those that do not want your lifestyle or type of boat sheepe?

 

[rotrax]

So who were the guys on SA who had built "several" steel boats?
Name them? I didn't see any there. As with most steel boat discussions, 95% of the advice given was from those who had zero hands on experience on the subject.( plastic boat armchair experts).Metalboatsociety.org, the origamiboats site, and the metalboatsociety faceboook page is where you go to find people who build steel boats. None on SA, now that I am not there any more.
Time scales from those using 1950's methods are irrelevant to more modern, efficient building methods.That's like asking a horse and buggy guy to give time scales for airlines.
You say "social skills": are a better way of determining how much someone knows about boats, etc etc?
Aristotle said there are 3 kinds of people.
A. Those who just do, believe and think what every one else believes and thinks, and question, or challenge nothing. They ,being the vast majority of humanity, have lots of friends. They have what are called "Social skills."

B. Those who don't necessarily believe what everyone else believes, and have questions, but keep silent about them, for fear of losing their friends. Their numbers are far fewer. They have fewer "Social skills."

C. Those who don't automatically accept anything at face value, and question everything ,openly, while constantly seeking better ways of doing things. Being a tiny minority ,they have far fewer friends, but much deeper friendships. ( "no social skills" they call it.)
Bernie Made off had great social skills, as did the folks at Briex. ("just tell them what they want to hear"). So go find another Bernie Made off or Briex for your financial advice. Their "social skills" means they must be "Right" about everything else, according to your theory.
You remind me of a Kiwi building next to me, when I was building my first boat. He "believed" what ever the person he was talking to wanted him to say he believed. Some times, it was the exact opposite of what he told me he believed. He had "Good social skills"?"
Thus, a "reliable source of info"?
There are good designers, who design what the client wants. Great designers design what the client needs. Good designers sell far more plans than great designers.( those with "poor social skills"because they don't simply go along with everything, unquestioningly, and thus refuse to prostitute their craft).
No, I wont be part of misleading anyone on anything I don't believe in. To do that would be to have what you call;
"Good social skills."
If you value what you call "Good social skills "over truth and honesty, then I have no interest in being like that.

Well, what are we to make of that?

Product of a tortured mind perhaps?

The concept of truth and honesty has passed you by BS. You have been asked diect questions on here enough times for us to judge that you actively avoid them with posts like the above.

You keep punting your " The only good boat is a steel boat " mantra, I'm going to take my life in my hands and sail my GRP-note GRP, not the offensive word "Plastic" that you insist on using- Motor Sailer and go sailing. Perhaps across Biscay to Northern Spain.

See ya........................................

 

[A1Sailor]

You say no one there made libelous comments about me, including bare faced lies about my cruising and building experience, which I disproved ,which proof was deleted by the moderator.
When Perry said I had never left the mud flats in Comox for years, I was told the moderator could post where my posts were sent from. I asked him to, but he refused, because it would prove Perry a liar. Only two of my critics had built ,very rough, steel boats. One was taking years to do what I have repeatedly done in matter of days. My greatest critic ,Bob Perry, never answered the question of how many he had built with his own hands, owned, lived aboard , maintained for decades ( meaning none), nor, posted stability curves for any of his designs, yet ridiculed those done by my former critics, and used the strategy of deflection, by turning attention to criticizm of my designs, thus avoiding questions about his .
Was he one of the experts you mention , who claimed to have designed the Amazon, a Graham Shannon design he had nothing to do with designing?
Or his 37 ft steel boat , which he calculated the displacement at 27,000 lbs ,which the owner said was 36,000 lbs?
Or the expert with only plastic boat ,lake and ditch sailing experience, who lost lost his last boat in a lake , by tying bow on to a concrete dock with no spring lines?
Or was it the experts who said that, since building a steel boat will take long time , then why not add an extra year getting the hull and deck together, which will improve nothing in the finished product.
Some expert. He is definitely an expert at self promotion ,which should never be mistaken for an expert on that which he has never done, building, living aboard, maintaining and crossing oceans in a steel boat.

At any rate , I still enjoy waking up whenever I feel like waking up, go sailing whenever I feel like sailing ,ditto fishing, hunting, diving , biking, etc , and enjoy listening to the traffic report, on how those who say I am doing it all wrong , are living. Have been since my mid 20's. If you don't want to live this way, then don't read my posts. They are not aimed at you. I have thoroughly enjoyed having done it 'All wrong." Still do!

OMG. I agree with Brent! Nobody likes experts in self promotion.

 

[rotrax]

Can't be bothered trawling through the last 50 pages of I'm right, you're wrong. Did the OP find a boat?
I'd have this one : https://www.apolloduck.com/boat.phtml?id=551364

No, BS hijacked the thread for his own gratification.

Despite several REALLY strong hints that he has said just about all there is to be said-and more than once-he wont leave the subject alone.

 

[Brent Swain]

Someone on the origamiboats site asked me about dealing with mold in the tropics, so I posted this.

In the tropics, I pained my hull white, to keep it cool . When I got back to BC, the cooler hull allowed the inside of lockers to get musty.

So I painted the hull dark green, and in cold arctic outflows ,when it is usually sunny around here ,my dark hull felt warm to the touch when frozen in, in ice at minus 12 degrees C. The lockers dried out and the mustiness disappeared.

Well insulated with spray foam, and a good woodstove also help, in fact are almost mandatory for comfort in these lattitudes. People who have gone from sheet foam to spray foam and wood stoves are amazed how much more comfortable their boats become.

Going to the tropics , I put all my clothes, BC charts and books in plastic bags (Contractor clean up bags are far more heavy duty) with moth balls, eliminating any chance of them going moldy. When I get back, an hour or two out in the wind evaporates any smell.

If I were concerned about mold behind paneling, I would drill one inch holes in the top of the paneling and drop moth balls in. If there was no smell, I would drop a few more in.

I have heard that washing a surface with a borax and water mix, and letting it dry, eliminates the chance of it going moldy. If I were building again, I would do that with all hidden paneling and foam surfaces.

A lady who lived in Hawaii for a while, said they used clove oil to prevent it. Just put it on a rag and wipe the surface with it

 

[Brent Swain]

The concept of truth and honesty has passed you by BS.

" The only good boat is a steel boat

Your Words, not mine. I just think that, for my use, and full time cruising \way of life ,full time use, steel is a better boat.
There are no experts on steel boats, among those who have never built, maintained long term ,lived aboard, nor cruised long term in one.
The British use the term GRP ,for glass reinforced plastic, which I prefer to shorten to Plastic.
Some consider "Truth" to only be that which most people believe. Bernie Made Off and Briex investors thought so. That was also the case when most people believed the world was flat, and the sun goes around the earth. Vestiges of that kind of thinking remain, especially among boaters.
One can always judge the value of advice by what it has done for the person offering it. If it has got results which you want in your life, then go for it. If they have taken far longer, and far more money than you want to take, to get out cruising ,then perhaps it would be wiser to get advice from someone who has accomplished it quicker, and far cheaper.

 

[rotrax]

Your Words, not mine. I just think that, for my use, and full time cruising \way of life ,full time use, steel is a better boat.
There are no experts on steel boats, among those who have never built, maintained long term ,lived aboard, nor cruised long term in one.
The British use the term GRP ,for glass reinforced plastic, which I prefer to shorten to Plastic.
Some consider "Truth" to only be that which most people believe. Bernie Made Off and Briex investors thought so. That was also the case when most people believed the world was flat, and the sun goes around the earth. Vestiges of that kind of thinking remain, especially among boaters.
One can always judge the value of advice by what it has done for the person offering it. If it has got results which you want in your life, then go for it. If they have taken far longer, and far more money than you want to take, to get out cruising ,then perhaps it would be wiser to get advice from someone who has accomplished it quicker, and far cheaper.

What a load of tosh. you constantly bang on about the inferiority or expense of any other boat building material other than your beloved steel, despite evidence in plenty that far more boat owners are getting trouble free service from their vessels in other materials.

Brent-it has been agreed that for long term live aboard cruising in out of the way places, steel is possibly the best material. I and others have agreed this point.

But steel has serious long term shortcomings if used in different ways.

The ways that most boat owners get to use their boats due to commitments you have dropped out of.

Like a career, family and looking after aged relatives.

It works for you, and others like you. In some ways with my cheapo steel Hartley in Wellington, it works for me.

But, all round, as a way of getting from place to place on water with outstanding comfort, fabulous storage space, weather protection and high spec and build quality my Island Packet SP Cruiser knocks just about anything else I have tried into a cocked hat. Notice no mention of sailing ability-it does not sail very well unless conditions are right. That is the compromise I have made in owning this boat, and it is a compromise others might not be prepared to make.

Would I buy one if they were made in steel?

Short answer-No.

Make of that what you will........................................

 

[bbg]

Absolutely! Some prefer to take the risks of sinking quickly in the night ( we will never know how many have. They are no longer here to tell us about it) if they hit something solid in the night, for the sake of being stylish and shiny. Others prefer a greater sense of security against such possibility , preferring practicality over impressing the Joneses .
Style over substance ,or the reverse?
My posts are for those who prefer substance over style.

Your posts are for yourself. No-one else.

You have demonstrated conclusively that your mind is closed. Enjoy your rust-bucket. Bye.

 

[Brent Swain]

What a load of tosh. you constantly bang on about the inferiority or expense of any other boat building material other than your beloved steel, despite evidence in plenty that far more boat owners are getting trouble free service from their vessels in other materials.

Brent-it has been agreed that for long term live aboard cruising in out of the way places, steel is possibly the best material. I and others have agreed this point.

But steel has serious long term shortcomings if used in different ways.

The ways that most boat owners get to use their boats due to commitments you have dropped out of.

Like a career, family and looking after aged relatives.

It works for you, and others like you. In some ways with my cheapo steel Hartley in Wellington, it works for me.

But, all round, as a way of getting from place to place on water with outstanding comfort, fabulous storage space, weather protection and high spec and build quality my Island Packet SP Cruiser knocks just about anything else I have tried into a cocked hat. Notice no mention of sailing ability-it does not sail very well unless conditions are right. That is the compromise I have made in owning this boat, and it is a compromise others might not be prepared to make.

Would I buy one if they were made in steel?

Short answer-No.

Make of that what you will........................................

Families? Your suggestion is we all have amoral responsibility to help solve the "World people shortage" and add to the main source of environmental meltdown. I think we should take better care of those who are already here, rather than add more.
You state that your steel boat does not sail so well, and conclude that " Therefore, all steel boats don't sail so well."
Kinda like saying, "plastic Roberts Sprays don't go to windward so well," and concluding that , "therefore, all plastic boats sail to windward the same way."
Some have implied that, suggesting that Chay Blythe's British Steel could only do 2 knots, sailing against the roaring 40's around the world ,non stop. How would your plastic boat have done on that kind of trip? The only one which ever tried it, didn't survive .
I have never claimed that steel is for everyone . You just never read that part of my posts, and constantly put words in my mouth, so you will have something to argue against.
One's personal environmental impact is porportionate to how much money they go thru. Mine is minimal . Do I feel guilty and apologetic for that?
Not a chance!

 

[Brent Swain]

On of the main reasons steel cruising boats are not more popular, is because they use grossly outdated, extremely labour intensive, 1950's building methods, making new steel boats prohibitively expensive to build . Last night, I was talking to a lady I built a 31 for, decades ago, who sailed her to Mexico ,Panama ,the West Indies ,Nova Scotia, and back to the West Indies then on to England. A BC boat yard quoted $80,000 for hull and decks alone, which I did for around $3500 ,using more modern methods. Having done a lot of sailing on many boats since , including deliveries, she said the boat I built her was the best cruising boat she had ever sailed on. Cost is no assurance of a better boat. Experience and logic works far better.
Another reason is, people just don't grasp the toughness, strength, and the peace of mind that gives, when cruising in steel ( having been so consistently mislead ,by plastic fans and salesmen .
They "passively accept" the concept that hitting anything hard ,"unavoidably" means a hole in the hull. A steel hull drastically reduces the fear of that, making cruising far more stress free and relaxed.

 

[Brent Swain]

Read the title of this thread, before responding.
Some have said steel boats abandoned, don't do so well, maintenance wise. The title is "Steel boat as a long term liveaboard " ,not "Steel boats abandoned and neglected."
For a long term liveaboard , the occasional maintenance touch up is no big deal, and the boat will probably be far better looked after, with very little effort, than one abandoned in a marina, and rarely visited.
Abandoned and neglected ones have nothing to do with the title of this thread.

 

[solent clown]

On of the main reasons steel cruising boats are not more popular, is because they use grossly outdated, extremely labour intensive, 1950's building methods, making new steel boats prohibitively expensive to build . Last night, I was talking to a lady I built a 31 for, decades ago, who sailed her to Mexico ,Panama ,the West Indies ,Nova Scotia, and back to the West Indies then on to England. A BC boat yard quoted $80,000 for hull and decks alone, which I did for around $3500 ,using more modern methods. Having done a lot of sailing on many boats since , including deliveries, she said the boat I built her was the best cruising boat she had ever sailed on. Cost is no assurance of a better boat. Experience and logic works far better.
Another reason is, people just don't grasp the toughness, strength, and the peace of mind that gives, when cruising in steel ( having been so consistently mislead ,by plastic fans and salesmen .
They "passively accept" the concept that hitting anything hard ,"unavoidably" means a hole in the hull. A steel hull drastically reduces the fear of that, making cruising far more stress free and relaxed.

If the origami method is so superior and cheap/fast to build, why are other manufacturers not doing it. That is a genuine question, in the motor industry for instance, the quickest and cheapest build solutions are those universally applied. Hence monocoque cars with powerpacks, predominantly front wheel drive all constructed in roughlyh the same modular way. There are of course also safety factors to design, cars have to pass many structural tests. Maybe that is why origami boats are not built by professionals? I like the idea of the construction method, but I still cannot get my head around your assertion that having bulkheads would make it weaker. I fully expect you to come back with a rant about communist sheep, and submarine containers with teeth hunting for plastic boats, but a serious answer would be genuinely interesting. I suspect not making proper bulkheads may be something to do with the business of making them fit a one off boat that may be beyond the ken of the builder. It simply defies logic to omit them despite your argument they may be a stress point. Anything that hits the boat so hard it tears the steel hull against a bulkhead would likely stove that side right in anyway without a bulkhead surely? Or tear the steel next to welded joins at the bow, stern and deck. If you gave us some figures, I am sure there are enough engineers on here who could model that for you

 

[rotrax]

" Having been so consistently mislead ,by plastic fans and salesmen. "

I would really like to know where this misapprehension of yours comes from. What brokers, salesmen and plastic fans Brent?

I have just trawled through years worth of back numbers of UK yachting magazines and " How to " sailing textbooks with no mention of being misled on the toughness-or not-of GRP as a boat building material.

I think the above is a figment of your imagination.

If Canadian brokers and owners are punting the stuff you state, so what? You are enlightened enough to know that GRP is not for you. It wont affect you in the slightest as you know it is total bolleux.

Your pricing and build methods might do for you, but as Solent Clown states-and if anyone knows steel its him-that if it was any good, it would be adopted by the boatbuilding industry.

Your ideas on population and life in general put you far outside the mainstream of society. Fair enough, that is your choice, but again you come over as patronising those who choose another route through life.

Is Brent Swain correct? Should we all drop out, build steel origami boats and sail off to the Pacific Islands?

Of course not. Those internal forces which made you do it manifest theirselves in others differently. They want a worthwhile career, doing usefull work, they want families and a close relationship with a life partner. They want to care for those who cared for them as children when they reach their last years.

Its all a choice Brent. There should be no implied censure or critism of those who choose a different way.

My steel boat in NZ does not sail well, but where have I ever implied that that is a charachteristic of ALL steel boats? I never have, so that is a figment of your imagination also.

You are quite right about the title of the thread, Brent.

It did not, however, in earlier posts, stop you slagging off GRP vessels as dangerous eggshells when the direct evidence is exactly the opposite. Their are far more GRP boats sailing and affording their owners good service in out of the way exotic destinations than steel ones.

The whole thread became a " I'm Brent Swain, I can build a better boat for next to nothing than a pro boatyard " advertising campaign.

I think this forum has made its mind up about you and your boats, Brent, and it is not too flattering.

Try winding it in a bit................................

 

[Brent Swain]

If the origami method is so superior and cheap/fast to build, why are other manufacturers not doing it. That is a genuine question, in the motor industry for instance, the quickest and cheapest build solutions are those universally applied. Hence monocoque cars with powerpacks, predominantly front wheel drive all constructed in roughlyh the same modular way. There are of course also safety factors to design, cars have to pass many structural tests. Maybe that is why origami boats are not built by professionals? I like the idea of the construction method, but I still cannot get my head around your assertion that having bulkheads would make it weaker. I fully expect you to come back with a rant about communist sheep, and submarine containers with teeth hunting for plastic boats, but a serious answer would be genuinely interesting. I suspect not making proper bulkheads may be something to do with the business of making them fit a one off boat that may be beyond the ken of the builder. It simply defies logic to omit them despite your argument they may be a stress point. Anything that hits the boat so hard it tears the steel hull against a bulkhead would likely stove that side right in anyway without a bulkhead surely? Or tear the steel next to welded joins at the bow, stern and deck. If you gave us some figures, I am sure there are enough engineers on here who could model that for you

I have been working as a "professional "steel worker since my late teens, and started earning journeyman's wages when I was 21 years old. All the boats I have done have been "professionally done", by me. In my mid 20's European tradesmen twice my age , came to me for advice on how to do their job.
Monocoque describes origami boat building, a well proven technique.
Boatbuilding thinking often defies logic, and trying to sell boaters on logic can be extremely difficult. They would have to compete with the $millions which have been spent on promoting plastic. If $millions spent on promoting plastic didn't work, they wouldn't do it. Most people buy whatever gets the most promotion, regardless of its merits, or lack of them. Especially beginners.
I have seen many people trying to produce metal boats in the traditional way, go bankrupt, over and over again, all the while saying that I have it all wrong, but I'm still here, and they are not . I turned down 3 people last year, who wanted me to build them a boat. I'm retired.
When the BC ferry "Queen of the North" hit the rocks in Gunboat pass, a friend did the dive on her, and said she was only holed at the bulkheads and transverse frames. Had the frames not come in contact with the hull plate, she would have been creased the full length, without holing. Pollard, in his book, said riverboats avoid frames coming in contact with plate, to avoid rocks punching holes there..
Fraser Yachts told a friend that cracking of gel coat is more common where bulkheads meet the hull, and fewer bulkheads improves things, in that respect.
You can tell how much flexing a hull is doing , by the cracking of brittle filler used on the interior. Mine uses a paint and talc mix, quite brittle , which shows little sign of any cracking, after 34 years of full time cruising, including many ocean crossings. I have no full bulkheads. The partial bulkheads are bolted to tabs with 3/8th bolts in the edge of plywood. No sign of any movement there..
One of my 36 footers hit an uncharted rock at hull speed. It only stretched and dented the steel where the built in tank, ended in a transverse welded in end. Others hitting rocks where there was no such hard point , bounced off ,with no dents.
The first 36 I built, pounded for 16 days in big surf on the west coast of Baja, and was pulled off thru 12 ft surf, no damage. Another pounded across 300 yards of Fijian Coral reef, while leaving Suva, then was dragged back across the reef by a tug, in the same big surf. No serious damage. She later collided with a freighter in Gibraltar . No serious damage. Another did a single season passage thru the NW passage. No serious damage. Another was blown ashore in the Mozambique channel in a hurricane . No serious damage. One pounded on a coral reef in Panama for 4 months . No hull damage. One T-boned a steel barge at hull speed. No damage. With this kind of track record, questions about adequate structural strength are just plain silly.
How would your "Engineered "plastic boats have fared, in the above encounters? How have they done?

I have NEVER said that EVERYONE should go cruising, only that anyone can. Again, you are putting words in my mouth, so you will have something to argue against.
You seem to be saying that NO ONE should.