Steel boat as a long-term liveaboard (in a warm(er) climate).

[rotrax]

Perhaps perfect for the Skipper Dr. Steve Millar, but not necessarily others.

I have, as I have said before, a steel boat. I also have a GRP one.

They are at totally different ends of the price spectrum, the GRP one sells for 250-300 thousand US Dollars, the steel one I bought for about 6 thousand US Dollars.

I can see exactly where you are coming from with your very practical suggestions during construction of a steel yacht so as to avoid corrosion problems down the line. I worked hard this year to sort a few rusty bits and will have to work longer and harder next year when I sort the windows and their rusty apertures.

However, in the REAL world, even here in relaxed NZ, welding, blasting and grinding in boatyards and marinas and boatyards is not possible without special approval and protective tents over the areas being worked on.

I have it sorted for next year when I return, a fellow club member who, like you, is a steel boat enthusiast and has built 3 from scratch-his current one a fast and seaworthy 60 footer-has all the kit, contacts and equipment to get me well on the way.

But-maintenance intensive it is. Unlike my GRP boat. I like things to be right and also look right, or in the case of the steel boat as right as they can be considering the cash and time available. Still, it was a bargain, sails OK and is strong and has a good motion.

As I suggested before, all boats are good, some are better than others.

The opinion on a good or less good boat is subjective, and always will be.

 

[Brent Swain]

Brent since you're here...

Sprayed foam under the deck...
I've just started removing all the headlining and sprayed foam inside under the deck. This boat had teak decks once upon a time so in addition to removing every bolted on deck fitting and welding them on there are a million stainless machine screws to take out and weld up the holes Whoever took off the teak just chopped the screw heads off. Nightmare, probably a year in this boatyard with all the other bits of the todo list.. .

Anyway will, be great once its done , but never again.

So for insulation I really don't want to spray foam but have something removable so next time I want to change something on the deck I just take down the headlining and get the welder out - so have you any experience with attaching panels of foam or whatever to the underside of the deck? Any hints ? Getting a nice snug contact between the foam and steel I can see being important.

Ta

Just made a small doll now covered in pins of the guy who thought putting a teak deck was a good idea!!:disgust:

Wow ,what a maze of thru deck bolts. As I have mentioned many times ,nothing which can be welded down should ever be bolted on a steel deck. On my boat there is not a single thru bolt on my decks .The only bolts are on my windows. On one boat I detailed, the owner bought a stainless opening port. I removed the lense and welded the outside of it, corner to corner, to the steel cabin front, eliminating the bolts and eliminating any inaccessible areas.
Winches can be done in a similar way ,or the steel under winch bases can be replaced with stainless. The steel for 2 inches around an exhaust pipe can be replaced with stainless, set in flush. With the foam out ,you can do a lot of welding, to eliminate all thru deck bolts.
I have been told that Moitessier, at one point, cut the mild steel fittings off his decks and replaced them with stainless, welded down, drastically reducing his maintenance on Joshua.
Your first step on that deck is eliminating all thru bolts, and welding all bolt holes shut. My anchor winch is welded down, but for a commercially made winch, you can put the bolts in, put the winch on the deck, and tack the heads on to the deck. Then, remove the winch, and weld the bolt heads down. That leaves the winch the height of the bolt heads above the deck, letting you keep an eye on the steel under it.
When I tried sheet foam ,despite all attempts to get an airtight vapour barrier on it, it was solid condensation under it, which lead to small bubbles in the paint. You could try some of the insulating paint solutions, under the sheet foam. I tried the ceramic additive on a stainless 100mm diameter vent pipe. It worked , as long as I was not cooking. When I began cooking, it rained condensation.
I have heard ground cork in epoxy helps a lot. I see a very rough paint surface on the inside of the Quadra Island ferry, which seems to work. Maybe that is ground cork in epoxy. At any rate, you have to deal with eliminating the condensation under sheet foam.
For blasting inside, I have heard of Vacu blast. You use a plastic 90 degree angle around the tip of a pencil blaster, which is hooked up to a vacuum cleaner. The sand bounces once, and is instantly sucked up by the vacuum cleaner. Only works for small jobs. Winston Bushnell said he was sitting next to a guy using that on his interior, and there was not even any dust on the top of the coffee he was holding. Another friend building a 36, said he has a more industrial version.
I'll have to pick his brain on how it works, and have a look at it.
I can imagine building one, with a 1 1/2 inch or 2 inc shroud around the nozzle, and with a blast of air being directed back up the shroud, leading into a bucket, sucking the spent sand up with a venturi effect. Looks simple.
Of course running a needle scaler over the steel, to get the big stuff off, initially, would be a good way to start. Sharpening the needles helps a lot.

 

[Brent Swain]

I just finished an update on post 760, about Silas Crosby, now that I have a computer which works.

 

[Brent Swain]

Yes, for a boat which spends it's life in a marina, only occasionally going out, ( as about 90% of plastic boats do) plastic is far superior to steel. For full time use, as a way of life in rugged conditions, steel is far superior, which is why it is mainly used for work boats, in conditions plastic would not survive long.
The key to low maintenance on steel, is doing it right ( not imitating plastic priorities) My current boat requires less maintenance after 33 years than my last one did after 10 years, due largely to what I learned on my last one.
Don't get your steel boat design or advice from someone who has not figured it out yet.
Here in BC, we have the benefit of hundreds of miles of bureaucrat free coast , where you can do whatever you please to maintain your boat, with little chance of any one noticing. For Europe, I hear the Tunisian boat yards are busy doing boat work in a relatively bureaucrat free atmosphere, which they could not do in the EU. I have little doubt such options also exist in some of the South Pacific Islands.
Silas Crosby was molten zinc flame sprayed from the waterline up, almost eliminating maintenance there. He flame sprayed around the windows on the inside, a great idea.
You can buy the equipment for not much more than the cost of hiring someone to do it for you. Several friends pitched in together , and did that, at a huge cost saving. I have flame sprayed one 36 footer.

 

[lpdsn]

Yes, for a boat which spends it's life in a marina, only occasionally going out, ( as about 90% of plastic boats do) plastic is far superior to steel. For full time use, as a way of life in rugged conditions, steel is far superior, which is why it is mainly used for work boats, in conditions plastic would not survive long.
The key to low maintenance on steel, is doing it right ( not imitating plastic priorities) My current boat requires less maintenance after 33 years than my last one did after 10 years, due largely to what I learned on my last one.
Don't get your steel boat design or advice from someone who has not figured it out yet.
Here in BC, we have the benefit of hundreds of miles of bureaucrat free coast , where you can do whatever you please to maintain your boat, with little chance of any one noticing. In Europe I hear the Tunisian boat yards are busy doing boat work in a relatively bureaucrat free atmosphere, which they could not do in the EU. I have little doubt such options also exist in some of the South Pacific Islands.
Silas Crosby was molten zinc flame sprayed from the waterline up, almost eliminating maintenance there. You can buy the equipment for not much more than the cost of hiring someone to do it for you. Several friends pitched in together , and did that, at a huge cost saving. I have flame sprayed one 36 footer.

Oh well, at least there's nothing controversial there then.

 

[Brent Swain]

Unfortunately since you joined this thread you have concentrated on dismissing any arguments that do not accord with your partisan view of the world. Couple that with you propensity to make claims that are unsupported by any evidence means your contributions are often close to useless and do not further the debate.

Incidentally before you joined the discussion was very balanced with the pros and cons of different materials being being given fair exposure with often the benefit of real verifiable experience.

It may well be that your designs do deal with some of the acknowledged drawbacks of steel, but your ideas do not seem to have found any favour outside the narrow confines of your locality. Perhaps people investing large amounts of time and money in serious ocean cruising boats prefer to put their faith in professionally designed and probably professionally constructed boats.

I have been a professional steel worker ,and have began making journeyman's wages since my early 20's. In my mid 20's European journeymen came to me for advice on how to do their job. I have been professionally designing steel boats since my mid 20's.
When Bob Perry accused me of making up my voyaging experience ( as a deflection of my asking him for proof of his offshore voyaging, steel boat ,hands on experience or living aboard, of which he has provided zero evidence, but would be crowing it from the roof tops, if he had any whatsoever), I posted copies of my passports, customs clearance, and photos of me and my boats in South Pacific locations, over decades. I have posted some here.
So do tell us, what contributions have you posted, which are of benefit to anyone with a steel boat, or evidence of your decades of experience in steel boats, building, crossing oceans, designing, living aboard or maintaining a steel boat, over 4 decades?
Yes, falsehoods ,and old wives tales about steel boats, which have no relevance to reality, should be dismissed, like the falsehood that all steel boats have the mistakes which make them maintenance nightmares ( Like teak decks, steel nooks and crannies, etc.)

 

[Tranona]

So do tell us, what contributions have you posted which are of benefit to anyone with a steel boat,or evidence of your decades of experience in steel boats, building, crossing oceans, designing, liveing aboard or maintaining a steel boat, over 4 decades?

I am not claiming any of that. My comments were reflecting your seeming total ignorance of what goes on in the rest of the world, in particular your claims made about GRP boats which are simply not supported by the evidence. The fact that a few boats have been built to your designs does not mean all the rest of the boats are rubbish, and if indeed they are so superior perhaps they would be more popular.

The reality is that you occupy a tiny corner of the boating universe and your designs and method of construction is never going to become mainstream. You might ask why? and I suggest it is because the alternatives satisfy the needs of the boaters who buy and use them.

 

[rotrax]

Once again you show your narrow view and lack of experience outside your immediate area of expertise, knowlege and enquiry.

The majority of pilot boats in major UK harbours , the RNLI all weather SAR lifeboats plus many, many small ferries doing sterling work day in day out around the UK and Europe are GRP.

Now lets examine your quote "" For full time use, as a way of life in rugged conditions, steel is far superior, which is why it is mainly used for work boats, in conditions plastic would not survive long. "

Well Brent, in other places than the low population Canadian part called British Columbia, GRP does pretty well. Many work boats give more than satisfactory service without the corrosion and rust problems of steel vessels.

You must agree that doing the stuff you can get away with in BC is not possible in more regulated countries.

I suspect somewhere in the Canadian rules much of what you tell us you do would not be tolerated due to H&S and Enviromental issues. You are getting away with it. So the costs you tell us about are not realistic outside BC.

Our all weather SAR lifeboats are GRP, built in house by the Royal National Lifeboat Institution, an organisation well respected world wide for its lifesaving service over the last 200 years or so. Perhaps you need to tell the RNLI that they are doing it wrong..................................

 

[lpdsn]

Perhaps you need to tell the RNLI that they are doing it wrong..................................

Do you realise what you're suggesting there? One anti-RNLI campaigner per forum is surely enough.

 

[GHA]

Wow ,what a maze of thru deck bolts. As I have mentioned many times ,nothing which can be welded down should ever be bolted on a steel deck.

No need to tell me that!!! If I knew a decade and a half ago...

So any ideas anyone for deck fittings - straight away getting rid of those toe killer staysail tracks on deck so need something to attach frictionless rings to. Thinking simple like a couple of short pieces stainless flat bar with another piece bridging to feed a dyneema soft shackle under. 6mm bar would do it rounded off, low profile...unless someone has a better idea??

When I tried sheet foam ,despite all attempts to get an airtight vapour barrier on it, it was solid condensation under it, which lead to small bubbles in the paint.

Armaflex looks like it's be used with good results, self adhesive, worth looking into anyway.
https://local.armacell.com/en/armacell-uk/products/afarmaflex-class-o/

 

[Brent Swain]

No need to tell me that!!! If I knew a decade and a half ago...

So any ideas anyone for deck fittings - straight away getting rid of those toe killer staysail tracks on deck so need something to attach frictionless rings to. Thinking simple like a couple of short pieces stainless flat bar with another piece bridging to feed a dyneema soft shackle under. 6mm bar would do it rounded off, low profile...unless someone has a better idea??




Armaflex looks like it's be used with good results, self adhesive, worth looking into anyway.
https://local.armacell.com/en/armacell-uk/products/afarmaflex-class-o/

Stainless half inch or 12mm acorn nuts welded in flush leave you flush threaded stainless holes to bolt things down or thread padeyes into .Nothing sticking up to bust toes on when they are not in use. A row of them replaces track on cruising boats. On mine, the bulwark pipe makes a great sheet track. I have welded up a clamp for the sheet block, which turns it into the equivalent of a full length track. The welded down stainless hand rail on the top corner of my cabin top works for a staysail sheet track. It also protects the paint from chipping on the top corner of the cabin side.
It is a obvious from your picture, that the big problem with internal corrosion was zero paint inside, before foaming, the main cause of needless loss of more steel boats than one can count. With thick enough epoxy there, you would have had no such problems .NO spray foam is NOT protection for a steel boat's interior, contrary to what the foamers tell you, in overselling the merits of their product.
NO, such screwups are NOT the fault of steel as a building material, only the fault of the builder. No boat building material is immune to such screwups.

 

[Brent Swain]

Once again you show your narrow view and lack of experience outside your immediate area of expertise, knowlege and enquiry.

The majority of pilot boats in major UK harbours , the RNLI all weather SAR lifeboats plus many, many small ferries doing sterling work day in day out around the UK and Europe are GRP.

Now lets examine your quote "" For full time use, as a way of life in rugged conditions, steel is far superior, which is why it is mainly used for work boats, in conditions plastic would not survive long. "

Well Brent, in other places than the low population Canadian part called British Columbia, GRP does pretty well. Many work boats give more than satisfactory service without the corrosion and rust problems of steel vessels.

You must agree that doing the stuff you can get away with in BC is not possible in more regulated countries.

I suspect somewhere in the Canadian rules much of what you tell us you do would not be tolerated due to H&S and Enviromental issues. You are getting away with it. So the costs you tell us about are not realistic outside BC.

Our all weather SAR lifeboats are GRP, built in house by the Royal National Lifeboat Institution, an organisation well respected world wide for its lifesaving service over the last 200 years or so. Perhaps you need to tell the RNLI that they are doing it wrong..................................

So how are your plastic tug boats, freighters, tankers , warships and aircraft carriers doing?
Simply living aboard a boat ,instead of on land, reduces ones environmental foot print so drastically, that no dirt dweller has any moral right to preach to us about "environmental responsibility."
Just check the oil patch in every parking lot, under every parking spot. Then look up at the smog cloud, and take a deep breath.
I read in an October issue of National Geographic that the average home in the western US uses 350 gallons of fresh water a day ,more than half a years worth for the average cruiser. The figures given for electricity consumption was 10,000 times what I used , before LEDS came along. Coal burning, nuclear plants, and damming of rivers is not needed for our tiny needs. Now, our use is a fraction of even that number, and mostly made with onboard solar panels and wind generators. We heat an area, well insulated, which is a tiny fraction of that of the average house, and only when we are home, not 24-7. I burn wood ,with the same carbon foot print it would have if left on the beach to rot. No financing of smog belching super tankers, to bring it halfway around the world to me.
No, we were not keeping the Exon Valdes and the BP offshore Louisiana oil rigs( and spills) in business. The dirt dwellers get the guilt trip for that.
Low populations are a product of some of us being far more environmentally responsible than others. Having contributed zero to overpopulation, I am entitled to the benefits.
The intrusion of big brother into our daily lives and freedom, and all their rules and regulations , are directly porportionate to population.
Fewer people means fewer of those are justified.

 

[Brent Swain]

I am not claiming any of that. My comments were reflecting your seeming total ignorance of what goes on in the rest of the world, in particular your claims made about GRP boats which are simply not supported by the evidence. The fact that a few boats have been built to your designs does not mean all the rest of the boats are rubbish, and if indeed they are so superior perhaps they would be more popular.

The reality is that you occupy a tiny corner of the boating universe and your designs and method of construction is never going to become mainstream. You might ask why? and I suggest it is because the alternatives satisfy the needs of the boaters who buy and use them.

Yes , as I have pointed out, many times, the mainstream needs boats to leave and ignore in marinas 95% of the time, for occasional day time use, and the odd 3 week summer cruise, mostly in benign conditions, for which plastic is far superior. It is also far superior for racing boats . No argument from me ,there.Steel is for a tiny portion of the market, full time, off the beaten path as way of life.
I have sent plans to Indonesia, Australia, Holland, Britain, Patagonia,New Zealand , Germany, Norway, Israel . Japan, Brazil, Ukraine, the US and Canada, etc etc and have seen photos of many boats built to them in many of those countries. My main objective is to drastically reduce the time, money, and work needed for them to get cruising ,and pass on what I have learned in over 40 years of building, cruising, living aboard, and maintaining steel cruising boats, and counter the steady stream of old wives tales, misinformation, falsehoods and claims that the results of common mistakes made on steel boats are inevitable, and unavoidable, coming mainly from people who have not ever owned a steel boat, or maintained the same one for decades, or from those who have not resolved them yet.
My ,how evil is that?

 

[GHA]

Stainless half inch or 12mm acorn nuts welded in flush leave you flush threaded stainless holes to bolt things down or thread padeyes into .

Great idea , Ta. Also will be a tidy solution to having the option for some legs with a couple of brackets and welded M16 nuts to mount them on deck.

It is a obvious from your picture, that the big problem with internal corrosion was zero paint inside, before foaming

it was actually full epoxied inside before the foam, I think it's the fixings for the since removed teak deck let some moisture in behind the paint system and that was that. By the looks of it the deck and fittings were all drilled after the paint system was applied so hundreds of punctures in the paint even before launch Bad idea..

 

[Brent Swain]

No need to tell me that!!! If I knew a decade and a half ago...

So any ideas anyone for deck fittings - straight away getting rid of those toe killer staysail tracks on deck so need something to attach frictionless rings to. Thinking simple like a couple of short pieces stainless flat bar with another piece bridging to feed a dyneema soft shackle under. 6mm bar would do it rounded off, low profile...unless someone has a better idea??




Armaflex looks like it's be used with good results, self adhesive, worth looking into anyway.
https://local.armacell.com/en/armacell-uk/products/afarmaflex-class-o/

You still need to get the surface super clean and well coated with thick epoxy.

 

[GHA]

You still need to get the surface super clean and well coated with thick epoxy.

Yep, lots of coats. Then a few more.

Almost certainly the biggest consumable cost in a structural refit, plate/flat bar and rods don't cost that much. And time is free

 

[rotrax]

So how are your plastic tug boats, freighters, tankers , warships and aircraft carriers doing?
Simply living aboard a boat ,instead of on land, reduces ones environmental foot print so drastically, that no dirt dweller has any moral right to preach to us about "environmental responsibility."
Just check the oil patch in every parking lot, under every parking spot. Then look up at the smog cloud, and take a deep breath.
I read in an October issue of National Geographic that the average home in the western US uses 350 gallons of fresh water a day ,more than half a years worth for the average cruiser. The figures given for electricity consumption was 10,000 times what I used , before LEDS came along. Coal burning, nuclear plants, and damming of rivers is not needed for our tiny needs. Now, our use is a fraction of even that number, and mostly made with onboard solar panels and wind generators. We heat an area, well insulated, which is a tiny fraction of that of the average house, and only when we are home, not 24-7. I burn wood ,with the same carbon foot print it would have if left on the beach to rot. No financing of smog belching super tankers, to bring it halfway around the world to me.
No, we were not keeping the Exon Valdes and the BP offshore Louisiana oil rigs( and spills) in business. The dirt dwellers get the guilt trip for that.
Low populations are a product of some of us being far more environmentally responsible than others. Having contributed zero to overpopulation, I am entitled to the benefits.
The intrusion of big brother into our daily lives and freedom, and all their rules and regulations , are directly porportionate to population.
Fewer people means fewer of those are justified.

So Brent, what has the above got to do with me telling you that in most other places than BC GRP workboats do just fine.

As always, you avoid giving a direct answer that addresses the issues.

You keep insisting that GRP is rubbish, that GRP boats only leave a marina now and then.

That might be true in BC, that sparsly populated bit of Pacific Canada where you live, but on most weekdays and weekends around the Solent where my boat is based at the moment the AIS shows plenty of GRP yachts in use-and its now winter. On a busy weekend in summertime there could easily be 2,000 plus GRP boats on the water.

What if a boat owner leaves his boat in a marina and only uses it when it suits him? WTF has it got to do with you?

From your latest post it would appear that you have envioromental issues with those who dont see the world as you do.

Thats fine, but you and your views are in a minority and moving back to the stone age wont work for those unable to live a low carbon lifestyle. Perhaps 99% of the world population cant live as you do.

Feel smug about it, if that makes you happy.

Like most other people on the planet I an concerned with making my life and the life of my family as comfortable and rewarding as possible without pissing too many others off.

Telling others they are doing it wrong is a sure way to achieve the latter, which is a fault you have in spades.

 

[Brent Swain]

So Brent, what has the above got to do with me telling you that in most other places than BC GRP workboats do just fine.

As always, you avoid giving a direct answer that addresses the issues.

You keep insisting that GRP is rubbish, that GRP boats only leave a marina now and then.

That might be true in BC, that sparsly populated bit of Pacific Canada where you live, but on most weekdays and weekends around the Solent where my boat is based at the moment the AIS shows plenty of GRP yachts in use-and its now winter. On a busy weekend in summertime there could easily be 2,000 plus GRP boats on the water.

What if a boat owner leaves his boat in a marina and only uses it when it suits him? WTF has it got to do with you?

From your latest post it would appear that you have envioromental issues with those who dont see the world as you do.

Thats fine, but you and your views are in a minority and moving back to the stone age wont work for those unable to live a low carbon lifestyle. Perhaps 99% of the world population cant live as you do.

Feel smug about it, if that makes you happy.

Like most other people on the planet I an concerned with making my life and the life of my family as comfortable and rewarding as possible without pissing too many others off.

Telling others they are doing it wrong is a sure way to achieve the latter, which is a fault you have in spades.

That's like me telling you that because 99% of the world ( 7 billion people) cant live exactly like you, at your street address, in your house, work your job, sleep in your bed , drive your car, etc etc ,then you should not be allowed to do it.
What a goofy argument you make?
No, plastic freighters, tug boats, warships , aircraft carriers, etc , don't work so well in Britain either, as you imply.
What I have said is for full time use in rugged conditions, steel is far superior to plastic. That does not imply in any way ,that everyone should seek such cruising, as you so deceitfully imply.

 

[Brent Swain]

Great idea , Ta. Also will be a tidy solution to having the option for some legs with a couple of brackets and welded M16 nuts to mount them on deck.


it was actually full epoxied inside before the foam, I think it's the fixings for the since removed teak deck let some moisture in behind the paint system and that was that. By the looks of it the deck and fittings were all drilled after the paint system was applied so hundreds of punctures in the paint even before launch Bad idea..

The trick is welding the nuts down without screwing up the threads. With a helping hand ,one could have someone on deck hold the nuts in place on a couple of threads of a bolt, while you get a couple of tacks on each one from inside. Then, you can take out the bolt and fill the threads with clay, before welding the outside. That will keep the spatter out of the threads. Running a bottoming tap thru after welding would be a good idea.
Singlehanded, one could thread the nuts on a wooden dowel, soaked in water ,to hold it and get one tack on, before removing the dowel and filling the threads with clay, before doing more welding .

 

[rotrax]

That's like me telling you that because 99% of the world ( 7 billion people) cant live exactly like you, at your street address, in your house, work your job, sleep in your bed , drive your car, etc etc ,then you should not be allowed to do it.
What a goofy argument you make?
No, plastic freighters, tug boats, warships , aircraft carriers, etc , don't work so well in Britain either, as you imply.
What I have said is for full time use in rugged conditions, steel is far superior to plastic. That does not imply in any way ,that everyone should seek such cruising, as you so deceitfully imply.

Trying to have an adult debate with you is like trying to nail a jellyfish to a wall.

We do have GRP warships-minesweepers, FYI.

The debate, as you well know but will not answer, was about workboats, not ships.

It must be hard having such a narrow view of the world and sailing in particular.

I agree with much of what you say, especially your excellent ideas for corrosion resistance and use of simple equipment to build good useable vessels from shaped steel.

But, you must agree, if their was merit in large scale production of vessels in the way you promote commercially, someone would be doing it. The demand is obviously not there.

It is being done with aluminium in NZ-several companies offer precut pieces for home assembly and welding.

It is clear that those who dont want to use a steel boat built the way you suggest have a perfect right to choose whatever material they like for their vessel-even for full time use in rugged conditions.

By the way, I have sailed in Puget Sound and around Vancouver Island, its not that rugged really. Some bits of NZ are pretty rugged too-as is the Atlantic Coast of Ireland.