Steel boat as a long-term liveaboard (in a warm(er) climate).

[john_morris_uk]

Every commercial steel vessel that I've had experience of, has had provision to shut down all ventilation (from the outside).
I know why this is required. Maybe you would like to give your opinion on this requirement?

I completely agree that it’s a requirement of commercial vessels to be able to shut off vents to engine spaces etc.

What I’m contesting is the ease with which Brent claims to be able to do it to the whole boat. Washboards stored below? Blanking plates for the dorades stored below? Handy rags available on deck to stuff into vents?

Good luck if he thinks it’s good advice and a selling point for steel yachts.

 

[SlowlyButSurely]

I completely agree that it’s a requirement of commercial vessels to be able to shut off vents to engine spaces etc.

What I’m contesting is the ease with which Brent claims to be able to do it to the whole boat. Washboards stored below? Blanking plates for the dorades stored below? Handy rags available on deck to stuff into vents?

Good luck if he thinks it’s good advice and a selling point for steel yachts.

I think this is exactly the point. It may well be difficult to seal up a production grp boat with poorly designed vents and hatches but on a custom steel blue water cruising boat it can be very quick and simple.

 

[john_morris_uk]

I think this is exactly the point. It may well be difficult to seal up a production grp boat with poorly designed vents and hatches but on a custom steel blue water cruising boat it can be very quick and simple.

It wasn’t quick and simple on the last two steel boats I sailed. Neither was it quick and simple on the last commercial work boat I was working on. (Or the one before that!)

I’ll standby to be good that their build and designs were obviously no good.

 

[SlowlyButSurely]

Do you have dogs on your companionway hatch? Whilst I'm fully confident mine will stop significant water ingress in the event of a large wave in the cockpit I wouldn't expect it to stop Oxygen molecules being sucked in. I've also got two cowlings. I'm sure any fire would also suck in some air via the Eberspaecher intake and piping (even with it being off) and where the wheels pass into the binnacles and I'd guess a few other places I haven't thought of yet.

It doesn't take much air to get in to support smouldering producing CO and heat, which would then burn rather violently if any hatch or other opening allows fresh air in - the classic backdraught.

No dogs on the companionway hatch but it is completely watertight. The forehatch and all windows have dogs. The vents can all be screwed down from above and below deck. The Webasto intake is inside and it's exhaust can be sealed. The engine exhaust has a ball valve. The hawse pipe has a flap to close it but it would probably be an idea to shove a rag in it. There are no other holes that could let air in.

We carry three dry powder fire extinguishers onboard as required but in reality if the fire cannot be put out with handheld fire extinguishers plus maybe a few buckets of water the only option is probably going to be to evacuate and hope the fire burns itself out. This whole debate has got me thinking about a system that could fill the whole boat with CO2 from outside. Any ideas?

 

[rogerthebodger]

I think this is exactly the point. It may well be difficult to seal up a production grp boat with poorly designed vents and hatches but on a custom steel blue water cruising boat it can be very quick and simple.

Having built a custom steel boat I considered ventilation very important and built in lots all above deck level.

All of mine are designed to prevent water ingress but I did not wish any of then to be closed at any time at ensure proper ventilation to ensure no condensation built up.

In the tropics you need good ventilation to prevent condensation when the boat is closed up.

My windows and hatches to have dogs but are aluminium framed rubber seals and perspex glazing. If a fire took hold the window and hatch glazing would melt als allow air in.

As I said before and Brent also said when he referred to the fire on a wooden boat, if a fire to that extent was starved of oxygen it would still smolder for a long time and when opened up to fight the fire the fire would explode as in a backdraft. Even if the fire did not explode there would still be smoldering embers that would still reignite once exposed to a draft.

To me one of the main points with a steel boat over a GRP or wooden boat is that it is less likely to burn to the waterline thus could stay afloat once the fire is out. I carry 8 dry powder fire extinguishers including a 3Kg stored in the cockpit in the open.

There are 2 main possible causes of fire on a pleasure boat 1) Engine related. 2) cooker/heater related.

My engine is in a enclosure as are most and to me the best solution to an engine fire is a fire/smoke detector and manually remote operated C02 fire extinguisher.

A cooker is a fire blanket with remote fuel shut off.

To me the best is to prevent the fire taking hold in the first place than to try to kill it by trying to make the boat air tight.

Brents solution id theoretically possible but could never be a one size fit all solution.

 

[Brent Swain]

Perhaps as a solution to this discussion you could arrange a few tests. Next time you're whizzing around the world call off at the Solent. Not sure you've been that way before but as it'd be your fifth circumnavigation you're probably bored with the other routes by now so it'll be a welcome change. Yachting Monthly, who are one of the mags running this site, did some crash tests with a plastic boat. You could get them to run a set of tests on one of your boats by way of comparison to show its superiority.

You could do the fire test. I'm sure JM's former colleagues could also arrange a few underwater explosions to test the hull strength. You could also simulate a few groundings, starting with the Brambles which is relatively soft (it's a bit of an initiation ceremony for Solent yachties to hit it despite there being loads of room to miss it) right up to hard reefs of rocks around the Channel Islands or up in Scotland.

I'm sure the members of the forum could think up other tests too. I'm sure YM would be happy to write it all up.

I have done all my "Whizzing"in the Pacific.
Altho the distances are huge, compared to the Atlantic , the shipping concentrations are drastically less per mile, and the port fees are far less, or non existent. A friend ,cruising the Caribbean on a 36 ,with a Montreal fireman's pension, Canada pension and old age pension, found he couldn't afford the West Indies fees for long.
When friends circumnavigated, they said they could only relax, and stop worrying about crime, when they got back in the Pacific.
We have no shortage of rocks to hit here, some uncharted.
Bring your plastic boat here, and we can have a demolition derby.

I have been using air supply to control and shut off fires in a metal container , ( my wood stove) for over 40 years . The stove pipe is on top, and the air goes in the bottom. If the air could only go in thru the top, ( like a deck vent) it would never make it down to the fuel, and you couldn't even start a fire that way, let alone keep one going .The air would make a bee line to the stove pipe, bypassing the fuel, just like air from a deck vent.
When a fire is kept smoldering for a long time, the temperature drops much too low for a flashback.
When Jack Carson had a fire on a 36, he said the dry chem extinguishers were useless, compared to CO2. He got rid of them, for all CO2 extinguishers ,which he found far more effective. He also found the fire stopped dead, where the spray urethane foam was painted with cheap latex paint.
Urethane spray foam can completely eliminate condensation.

 

[Brent Swain]

No dogs on the companionway hatch but it is completely watertight. The forehatch and all windows have dogs. The vents can all be screwed down from above and below deck. The Webasto intake is inside and it's exhaust can be sealed. The engine exhaust has a ball valve. The hawse pipe has a flap to close it but it would probably be an idea to shove a rag in it. There are no other holes that could let air in.

We carry three dry powder fire extinguishers onboard as required but in reality if the fire cannot be put out with handheld fire extinguishers plus maybe a few buckets of water the only option is probably going to be to evacuate and hope the fire burns itself out. This whole debate has got me thinking about a system that could fill the whole boat with CO2 from outside. Any ideas?

You would probably need only enough CO2 to drop the oxygen content to a lower level, not necessarily enough to fill the boat completely .

 

[Mr Cassandra]

You're Jack Carson must be one unlucky or careless bloke, to have had so many fires aboard.

 

[Brent Swain]

You're Jack Carson must be one unlucky or careless bloke, to have had so many fires aboard.

He only had one , in San Raphael, when welding ,on his circumnavigation, on "Island Breeze."

 

[Brent Swain]

The time to plan ways to quickly shut the air supply out of a boat, in a fire, is long before it happens. Better yet, in the design and building stage.

 

[Brent Swain]

As you can put a fire out with oil, (its actually quite difficult to get to burn in the first place) your tale is not very convincing.

I think we'll stick with the accepted wisdom accrued from years of experience of firefighting in steel and other containers. Aggressively fight the fire and only shut down the space as a last resort. I think you've mentioned two fires on board. I've had fires on board a yacht (and a ship) and they're not nice. Mine were put out with a fire extinguisher or by cutting off the gas supply to the cooker that had fractured and caught light.

PS Are you sure your boat is well ventilated with the vents you've described. In the all the time I've spent on boats in the tropics (obviously not nearly as much as your vast experience) I've had far more ventilation than you are describing. (Including on steel boats before you suggest otherwise.)

An open fore hatch and 19 inch by 3ft main hatch ( Both easily and quickly sealed airtight, )have given me all the ventilation I ever needed , in my 31 footer.

 

[john_morris_uk]

An open fore hatch and 19 inch by 3ft main hatch ( Both easily and quickly sealed airtight, )have given me all the ventilation I ever needed , in my 31 footer.

You are easily pleased (or haven't lived and sailed in the tropics very much.)

Firstly I (like many other people) have no desires to start sailing round the oceans of the world in a 31' boat; so with respect, your experience is irrelevant as a general rule.

The last boat I sailed (although only between one and two thousand miles) in the tropics was 67' long. It was built of steel and took rather more than two hatches to keep that one ventilated.

The previous one was 55' long. Ditto regarding the ventilation; there was lots of it with lots of opening hatches and dorades and vents.

A previous steel boat I sailed was 45' long and was a deck saloon ketch. It also had LOTS of ventilation, but lots of people lived on board.

Our current boat happens to be GRP. Its also got LOTS of ventilation and I like it that way as I've experienced sailing in hot climates without ventilation and its truly awful...

My direct experience is that boats in the tropics need lots of ventilation, a bimini over the cockpit and preferably some sort of sun shade over much of the deck for rigging when at anchor.

 

[rogerthebodger]

John I do sail in the tropics and have my home base in the sub tropics.

My steel boat is 50 ft wit a deck saloon with big glass and I have 10 hatches including the companionway and 14 opening windows and still some times it can be too hot/humid.

The while hull and deck is insulated with 50/60mm spray in polyurethane foam. The light gray deck get too hot to walk on most of the day in summer without a full sun shade over ALL the deck

I have a permanent sun cover over the cockpit area due to both the tropical sun ans tropical rain storm's.

I do get the impression that Brents boats/designs are very agricultural and my suit Brent and his life style but would not suit me or my SWMBO so I don't think we are talking similar quality of boat.

Brent made a comment to stick welding stainless and polishing the stainless while sailing of at anchor. That would not be possible on my 50 ft let alone a 31ft due to the mains power needed and the proper polishing equipment. Also parts of some assembled need polishing before welding as they cannot be polished to any decent standard before hand.

I would also like to see drawings of Brents hull construction method to see if the drawings give patterns or lofting dimension for the special shape of the flat hull plates before pulling and welding the flat plate to form the 3 D hull.

Having done pattern development for sheet metal formed structures like cones, hoppers and cyclones I know its not that easy. There may be software to do that these days but we had to do it by hand in my apprentice days

 

[john_morris_uk]

Agree 100% although I suspect Brent may have another opinion. He’s emailed me a load of pictures and drawings but I need to sort out hosting them to get them on the thread and one of my colleagues died suddenly and unexpectedly last Friday so life’s a bit hectic atm.

 

[lpdsn]

I have done all my "Whizzing"in the Pacific.

Apologies, I thought you'd said you'd done four circumnavigations. I must've misremembered. Obviously if your next circumnavigation is the first you'd want to visit the touristy places not the cold & wet parts of NW Europe. Although I still reckon bouncing over the Brambles undamaged would be a good marketing ploy for your designs, especially if the red glow of a contained fire was also visible through the portholes. You'd become a Solent legend.

 

[solent clown]

I said I wouldn't post here again, BUT this is a serious matter. I am the man responsible for Solent infamy.
As a matter of fact, you might want to tune in to your VHF tomorrow when we do the delivery trip... MUST REMEMBER IT HAS A KEEL.
Timing it to go aground on a rising tide so any calamity should be short lived

 

[lpdsn]

I am the man responsible for Solent infamy.

It would be unfair to pin that much on one man.

Good luck with tomorrow's trip. Once your through the Inner Swashway there's not much to worry about.

 

[Brent Swain]

You are easily pleased (or haven't lived and sailed in the tropics very much.)

Firstly I (like many other people) have no desires to start sailing round the oceans of the world in a 31' boat; so with respect, your experience is irrelevant as a general rule.

The last boat I sailed (although only between one and two thousand miles) in the tropics was 67' long. It was built of steel and took rather more than two hatches to keep that one ventilated.

The previous one was 55' long. Ditto regarding the ventilation; there was lots of it with lots of opening hatches and dorades and vents.

A previous steel boat I sailed was 45' long and was a deck saloon ketch. It also had LOTS of ventilation, but lots of people lived on board.

Our current boat happens to be GRP. Its also got LOTS of ventilation and I like it that way as I've experienced sailing in hot climates without ventilation and its truly awful...

My direct experience is that boats in the tropics need lots of ventilation, a bimini over the cockpit and preferably some sort of sun shade over much of the deck for rigging when at anchor.

Such huge and complex boats would have cut deeply into, or eliminated most of the cruising time for me, and my friends.
How much playtime are we willing to give up for pretentiousness?
None!
After having single handed my first boat, a 36 footer, to New Zealand, and a couple of years cruising the S Pacific in her, I have no interest in cruising in anything bigger than 31 feet. That is what has let me semi retire ,and work only a month or two a year, since my mid 20's. I notice those who insist on huge boats, tend to not get semi retired in their mid 20's.
I design for practical people, and their practical needs, not for egos. I have helped build 36 footers for those who wanted much bigger boats, and could see that ,if they had gone bigger, they would never have finished them, and would never have gone anywhere. They thanked me later.
Stern anchor that big main hatch to windward, and it blows nice breeze thru my boat , in any kind of wind.
Seems you are easily pleased with less play time and more work time, and complexity. Not all of us are. Some of us would rather cruise more.
To each his own.
I enjoy informing wanna be cruisers that they don't have to be rich to cruise, or take forever to get there. Seeing them succeed, and knowing I had something to do with it, is my greatest source of sense of accomplishment.

 

[john_morris_uk]

Brent, you can twist and squirm and make up accusations all day but firstly, you’ve no idea how much cruising and living aboard a yacht I’ve done so don’t guess. Secondly don’t project aspirations onto other people and make sweeping generalisations.

Others might not want to cruise in agricultural style boats. Others might want more room and might want guests to cruise with them from time to time. Our current boat is 39’ and we have a nice aft cabin with its own heads and shower plus EVERY hatch and port light opens for ventilation. Three of them with bug screens available if necessary.

The rest of the boat has similar ventilation and it’s needed.

Just because you survived with two hatches open to the breeze in your 31’ boat doesn’t prove anything as a general case. It’s interesting that instead of acknowledging the problem you resort to justifying your 31’ boat and deriding anything bigger.

Bit like extolling the virtues of your home made self steering but never answering questions about what you proclaim as best on boats with different styles of rudder to the only sort you’re will fit. You make definitive claims but can’t substantiate them when faced with other people’s real problems.

 

[Mr Cassandra]

Brent, you can twist and squirm and make up accusations all day but firstly, you’ve no idea how much cruising and living aboard a yacht I’ve done so don’t guess. Secondly don’t project aspirations onto other people and make sweeping generalisations.

Others might not want to cruise in agricultural style boats. Others might want more room and might want guests to cruise with them from time to time. Our current boat is 39’ and we have a nice aft cabin with its own heads and shower plus EVERY hatch and port light opens for ventilation. Three of them with bug screens available if necessary.

The rest of the boat has similar ventilation and it’s needed.

Just because you survived with two hatches open to the breeze in your 31’ boat doesn’t prove anything as a general case. It’s interesting that instead of acknowledging the problem you resort to justifying your 31’ boat and deriding anything bigger.

Bit like extolling the virtues of your home made self steering but never answering questions about what you proclaim as best on boats with different styles of rudder to the only sort you’re will fit. You make definitive claims but can’t substantiate them when faced with other people’s real problems.

Hope you can now see ,shooting him down is a lot better than closing him down.

And when I read the thread above,I knew you would pick up on the word "agricultural"