Steel boat as a long-term liveaboard (in a warm(er) climate).

[john_morris_uk]

Definitely trumps the experience of anyone who has never owned, built , lived aboard or cruised extensively in any STEEL boat, when it comes to the subject of STEEL boats.
NO , PLASTIC boat experience does NOT make one an expert on STEEL boats.

The suggestion that you can't put a fire out by stopping all oxygen, IS the suggestion that a fire can burn without oxygen.
The suggestion that a fire can be come an inferno, with all oxygen sources shut off, IS the suggestion that a fire can burn without oxygen .

Shouting is the resort of someone who is losing an argument.

Show me where anyone has said a fire can burn without oxygen. It’s a patently absurd claim.

It’s almost as absurd as claiming that it’s easy to put a fire out by simply shutting all the hatches and sitting on the deck a while. It may work sometimes but it’s piss poor general advice as quickly shutting off all sources of ventilation on any decently ventilated boat isn’t easy. Claiming that it is easy is dangerous and misleading.

When I’ve got time I’ll post the drawings you’ve sent me. Unfortunately there aren’t enough details of scantlings and plate thickness and ballast and sailplan etc for my Naval Architect friend to be able to make any informed judgements about some of the key design elements.

 

[solent clown]

never in the field of human interaction have so many tongues been bitten... Such a lot of vitriolic and potentially libellous nonsense Mr Swain, despite some of us trying to engage you on your actual experience and work and have a decent sharing of experience and resource. It seems you are happier just winding other people up than engaging in a meaningful manner. The internet is not for you if you cannot change your emotional mindset. People have the attention span of a goldfish, if you stopped behaving like such a brash loudmouth for a while people would start listening to you in no time, you would make friends, and get your points across, and who knows, listening to the other side of an argument, or taing on board other people's ideas might even help you improve your own stuff.
Fundamentally that is what this forum is for, so either get with the program, play nicely, and enjoy, or sail away.
I hope you stay, and moderate your tone, as I still think somewhere inside that chest beating of yours is a little man who really cares about boats. It would be great to hear from him.

 

[Mr Cassandra]

Meaning, when your argument falls flat on its face ,and cant stand the challenge of reality, it should not be challenged by reality?
When dangerously misleading falsehoods could become a matter of life or death, we have a moral obligation to expose them as the dangerous falsehoods which they are.

I was thinking more the rambling's of a mad man.
Could you give us your views on gun ownership?

 

[rogerthebodger]

Show me where anyone has said a fire can burn without oxygen. It’s a patently absurd claim.

It’s almost as absurd as claiming that it’s easy to put a fire out by simply shutting all the hatches and sitting on the deck a while. It may work sometimes but it’s piss poor general advice as quickly shutting off all sources of ventilation on any decently ventilated boat isn’t easy. Claiming that it is easy is dangerous and misleading.

John I am sure that you have done fire fighting as I did as part of my STCW.

In theory you can put out a fire by just excluding the oxygen but the heat generated also must be lowered otherwise when oxygen is reintroduced you get a back draft which can be more dangerous than the original fire.

So to put the file out you can just exclude the oxygen ber to ensure it does not re ignite you need to remove one of the other 2 requirement in the fire triangle being heat or fuel.

 

[john_morris_uk]

John I am sure that you have done fire fighting as I did as part of my STCW.

In theory you can put out a fire by just excluding the oxygen but the heat generated also must be lowered otherwise when oxygen is reintroduced you get a back draft which can be more dangerous than the original fire.

So to put the file out you can just exclude the oxygen ber to ensure it does not re ignite you need to remove one of the other 2 requirement in the fire triangle being heat or fuel.

I completely agree. What I have consistently challenged Brent over is his assertion that his steel boat has the added value safety aspect of survivability of a fire because you can ‘easily and quickly put the fire out by shutting the hatches etc’. Of course a fire will go out if you cut off the air/oxygen but in practice cutting off the ventilation on any decently ventilated boat isn’t quite as simple and straightforward as he claims. In fact his wildly optimistic assertion that it’s easy is dangerous advice and that’s why he’s been consistently challenged over it.

 

[lpdsn]

When a thread has run its course we let it die.

I thought that post was a bit optimistic.

 

[Mr Cassandra]

I thought that post was a bit optimistic.

Anything to kill the boredom

 

[solent clown]

Good luck Mr Swain. Please do try to be more circumspect.
You do have something to offer.
This clown however will be juggling his balls elsewhere. Nothing to be gained here but the soap opera. For that I have Neighbours and all the excellent comedy that ensues from the far fetched melodrama. Hang on....

 

[DownWest]

Yep. I liked the bit were Brent takes the moral high ground, then slags off someone(RS)) who asked him about times to make SS bits. So Brent ( not liking polished bits) rather than answer the question, suggests that TIG welding is unsafe and the bits shown are risky. But hey! He saw one failure, so condems the photos as not done with his prefered stick welding. Vitually all SS fabricaters use TIG, so obviously are just out to charge the hours..
Got to say, if he does through hulls in one minute including prep for the joint, not sure I would want to sail on his boats.

Like SC, I wish him good luck, but a bit of humility would go a long waay

 

[SlowlyButSurely]

I completely agree. What I have consistently challenged Brent over is his assertion that his steel boat has the added value safety aspect of survivability of a fire because you can ‘easily and quickly put the fire out by shutting the hatches etc’. Of course a fire will go out if you cut off the air/oxygen but in practice cutting off the ventilation on any decently ventilated boat isn’t quite as simple and straightforward as he claims. In fact his wildly optimistic assertion that it’s easy is dangerous advice and that’s why he’s been consistently challenged over it.

John, could you please explain why you think sealing a boat airtight isn't easy. It's a piece of cake on our boat. What vents have you observed that can't be sealed easily and quickly? What boats can't be sealed? I would have thought that this is a prerequisite for a liveaboard cruising boat.

 

[lpdsn]

John, could you please explain why you think sealing a boat airtight isn't easy. It's a piece of cake on our boat. What vents have you observed that can't be sealed easily and quickly? What boats can't be sealed? I would have thought that this is a prerequisite for a liveaboard cruising boat.

Do you have dogs on your companionway hatch? Whilst I'm fully confident mine will stop significant water ingress in the event of a large wave in the cockpit I wouldn't expect it to stop Oxygen molecules being sucked in. I've also got two cowlings. I'm sure any fire would also suck in some air via the Eberspaecher intake and piping (even with it being off) and where the wheels pass into the binnacles and I'd guess a few other places I haven't thought of yet.

It doesn't take much air to get in to support smouldering producing CO and heat, which would then burn rather violently if any hatch or other opening allows fresh air in - the classic backdraught.

 

[john_morris_uk]

John, could you please explain why you think sealing a boat airtight isn't easy. It's a piece of cake on our boat. What vents have you observed that can't be sealed easily and quickly? What boats can't be sealed? I would have thought that this is a prerequisite for a liveaboard cruising boat.

I've sailed lots of different boats including several steel boats across oceans. The sources of ventilation are hatches, dorades, and vents to engine spaces and living spaces. We've invariably carried blanking pieces (storm shutters/caps) for the dorades, and the vents sometimes have screw down (from the interior!) closing flaps. Assuming you can shut the hatches and block off the main companionway (no easy task if the washboards are stored down below) then you are left with the problem of removing the dorades and fitting the blanking pieces. This is also assuming that the engine space vents can be shut or blocked off efficiently.

In case Brent thinks I don't know what I'm talking about or claims I don't have experience of steel boats, the last steel boat I sailed was 67' long and built to Lloyds (she was an ex round the world boat that had been round twice before I sailed her). There were numerous hatches and vents and shutting the air supply off to below decks sufficient to put a fire out would have been difficult to the point of impossible. In addition I had a crew of 14 on board. A previous steel boat I sailed and lived on extensively was 45' long and was a ketch with similarly large numbers of openings in the deck etc to provide ventilation. Many of the vents were of a common design that isn't able to be closed quickly. They are completely water tight - even to the deck being swept with waves, but they can't be sealed quickly. I was in at the inception and watched the professional build of that boat.

 

[john_morris_uk]

Do you have dogs on your companionway hatch? Whilst I'm fully confident mine will stop significant water ingress in the event of a large wave in the cockpit I wouldn't expect it to stop Oxygen molecules being sucked in. I've also got two cowlings. I'm sure any fire would also suck in some air via the Eberspaecher intake and piping (even with it being off) and where the wheels pass into the binnacles and I'd guess a few other places I haven't thought of yet.

It doesn't take much air to get in to support smouldering producing CO and heat, which would then burn rather violently if any hatch or other opening allows fresh air in - the classic backdraught.

Exactly so. Any experience of real fires in confined spaces would show that shutting off the space is a really good idea, but as an 'easy way to put the fire out' it's a last resort and no guarantee of success.

Brent claims he's had success with it, and good luck to him but it's not a firefighting technique that anyone with half an ounce of commons sense is going to rely on as a primary way of attacking a fire.

 

[Brent Swain]

Exactly so. Any experience of real fires in confined spaces would show that shutting off the space is a really good idea, but as an 'easy way to put the fire out' it's a last resort and no guarantee of success.

Brent claims he's had success with it, and good luck to him but it's not a firefighting technique that anyone with half an ounce of commons sense is going to rely on as a primary way of attacking a fire.

My brother, a lifetime firefighter, and ex-lieutenant on the local fire department, said it was the ideal solution.
One of the boats I mentioned, which had an oil stove fire go out before doing any serious damage, despite there being 20 gallons of oil spilled over the interior, had open vents, and a not particularly air tight sliding hatch and drop boards. Carbon dioxide is heavier than air and settles in the bottom of a boat, hard to remove by cabin top vents. It only has to rise high enough to put the fire out.
Air is roughly 20% oxygen. What happens when that drops to 15%? 10%? 5%? How low does it go before fire becomes very hard to sustain? You don't have to seal every vent absolutely airtight.I didn't, but it worked. A jacket shoved in each vent works.
Given that everyone I know who has shut the oxygen off, has put the fire out, while everyone I know who hasn't ,has had the boat gutted, which would be the wiser choice? That which worked, or that which hasn't ?
I once heard about a big wooden power boat, which had an engine fire in Haida Gwai. They had the engine room sealed, and the fire was barely smoldering. While they were gone for more firefighting equipment, the local volunteer fire department opened her up, and she went "bang" and burned to the waterline.
Some decision!

 

[Brent Swain]

John I am sure that you have done fire fighting as I did as part of my STCW.

In theory you can put out a fire by just excluding the oxygen but the heat generated also must be lowered otherwise when oxygen is reintroduced you get a back draft which can be more dangerous than the original fire.

So to put the file out you can just exclude the oxygen ber to ensure it does not re ignite you need to remove one of the other 2 requirement in the fire triangle being heat or fuel.

The heat is lowered, in fact, doesn't get that high in the first place, in the absence of plenty of oxygen.

 

[Brent Swain]

I completely agree. What I have consistently challenged Brent over is his assertion that his steel boat has the added value safety aspect of survivability of a fire because you can ‘easily and quickly put the fire out by shutting the hatches etc’. Of course a fire will go out if you cut off the air/oxygen but in practice cutting off the ventilation on any decently ventilated boat isn’t quite as simple and straightforward as he claims. In fact his wildly optimistic assertion that it’s easy is dangerous advice and that’s why he’s been consistently challenged over it.

The suggestion being , that "it takes a very, very long time to seal ( stuff a rag in) the two 4 inch vents forward, and three six inch vents aft, on my boat?"

 

[Brent Swain]

Shouting is the resort of someone who is losing an argument.

Show me where anyone has said a fire can burn without oxygen. It’s a patently absurd claim.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
You did, in the statement below, suggesting one cant put a fire out by shutting off the oxygen!
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

It’s almost as absurd as claiming that it’s easy to put a fire out by simply shutting all the hatches and sitting on the deck a while. It may work sometimes but it’s piss poor general advice as quickly shutting off all sources of ventilation on any decently ventilated boat isn’t easy. Claiming that it is easy is dangerous and misleading.

When I’ve got time I’ll post the drawings you’ve sent me. Unfortunately there aren’t enough details of scantlings and plate thickness and ballast and sail plan etc for my Naval Architect friend to be able to make any informed judgements about some of the key design elements.

3/16th plate for the hull, 1/4 for the keel. 1/8th for the decks, cabin, cockpit and wheelhouse, half inch for the keel bottom.
Inch by 3/8th for deck stiffeners, inch by inch by 1/4 for longitudinals , half inch by 3 inch by 3 inch across the twin keels. 5700 lb keel , 4500 in lead and the rest steel.

 

[lpdsn]

My brother, a lifetime firefighter, and ex-lieutenant on the local fire department, said it was the ideal solution.
One of the boats I mentioned, which had an oil stove fire go out before doing any serious damage, despite there being 20 gallons of oil spilled over the interior, had open vents, and a not particularly air tight sliding hatch and drop boards. Carbon dioxide is heavier than air and settles in the bottom of a boat, hard to remove by cabin top vents. It only has to rise high enough to put the fire out.
Air is roughly 20% oxygen. What happens when that drops to 15%? 10%? 5%? How low does it go before fire becomes very hard to sustain? You don't have to seal every vent absolutely airtight.I didn't, but it worked. A jacket shoved in each vent works.
Given that everyone I know who has shut the oxygen off, has put the fire out, while everyone I know who hasn't ,has had the boat gutted, which would be the wiser choice? That which worked, or that which hasn't ?
I once heard about a big wooden power boat, which had an engine fire in Haida Gwai. They had the engine room sealed, and the fire was barely smoldering. While they were gone for more firefighting equipment, the local volunteer fire department opened her up, and she went "bang" and burned to the waterline.
Some decision!

Perhaps as a solution to this discussion you could arrange a few tests. Next time you're whizzing around the world call off at the Solent. Not sure you've been that way before but as it'd be your fifth circumnavigation you're probably bored with the other routes by now so it'll be a welcome change. Yachting Monthly, who are one of the mags running this site, did some crash tests with a plastic boat. You could get them to run a set of tests on one of your boats by way of comparison to show its superiority.

You could do the fire test. I'm sure JM's former colleagues could also arrange a few underwater explosions to test the hull strength. You could also simulate a few groundings, starting with the Brambles which is relatively soft (it's a bit of an initiation ceremony for Solent yachties to hit it despite there being loads of room to miss it) right up to hard reefs of rocks around the Channel Islands or up in Scotland.

I'm sure the members of the forum could think up other tests too. I'm sure YM would be happy to write it all up.

 

[john_morris_uk]

My brother, a lifetime firefighter, and ex-lieutenant on the local fire department, said it was the ideal solution.
One of the boats I mentioned, which had an oil stove fire go out before doing any serious damage, despite there being 20 gallons of oil spilled over the interior, had open vents, and a not particularly air tight sliding hatch and drop boards. Carbon dioxide is heavier than air and settles in the bottom of a boat, hard to remove by cabin top vents. It only has to rise high enough to put the fire out.
Air is roughly 20% oxygen. What happens when that drops to 15%? 10%? 5%? How low does it go before fire becomes very hard to sustain? You don't have to seal every vent absolutely airtight.I didn't, but it worked. A jacket shoved in each vent works.
Given that everyone I know who has shut the oxygen off, has put the fire out, while everyone I know who hasn't ,has had the boat gutted, which would be the wiser choice? That which worked, or that which hasn't ?
I once heard about a big wooden power boat, which had an engine fire in Haida Gwai. They had the engine room sealed, and the fire was barely smoldering. While they were gone for more firefighting equipment, the local volunteer fire department opened her up, and she went "bang" and burned to the waterline.
Some decision!

As you can put a fire out with oil, (its actually quite difficult to get to burn in the first place) your tale is not very convincing.

I think we'll stick with the accepted wisdom accrued from years of experience of firefighting in steel and other containers. Aggressively fight the fire and only shut down the space as a last resort. I think you've mentioned two fires on board. I've had fires on board a yacht (and a ship) and they're not nice. Mine were put out with a fire extinguisher or by cutting off the gas supply to the cooker that had fractured and caught light.

PS Are you sure your boat is well ventilated with the vents you've described. In the all the time I've spent on boats in the tropics (obviously not nearly as much as your vast experience) I've had far more ventilation than you are describing. (Including on steel boats before you suggest otherwise.)

 

[NormanS]

I've sailed lots of different boats including several steel boats across oceans. The sources of ventilation are hatches, dorades, and vents to engine spaces and living spaces. We've invariably carried blanking pieces (storm shutters/caps) for the dorades, and the vents sometimes have screw down (from the interior!) closing flaps. Assuming you can shut the hatches and block off the main companionway (no easy task if the washboards are stored down below) then you are left with the problem of removing the dorades and fitting the blanking pieces. This is also assuming that the engine space vents can be shut or blocked off efficiently.

In case Brent thinks I don't know what I'm talking about or claims I don't have experience of steel boats, the last steel boat I sailed was 67' long and built to Lloyds (she was an ex round the world boat that had been round twice before I sailed her). There were numerous hatches and vents and shutting the air supply off to below decks sufficient to put a fire out would have been difficult to the point of impossible. In addition I had a crew of 14 on board. A previous steel boat I sailed and lived on extensively was 45' long and was a ketch with similarly large numbers of openings in the deck etc to provide ventilation. Many of the vents were of a common design that isn't able to be closed quickly. They are completely water tight - even to the deck being swept with waves, but they can't be sealed quickly. I was in at the inception and watched the professional build of that boat.

Every commercial steel vessel that I've had experience of, has had provision to shut down all ventilation (from the outside).
I know why this is required. Maybe you would like to give your opinion on this requirement?