Steel boat as a long-term liveaboard (in a warm(er) climate).

[rotrax]

BS is not exactly a newbie poster venturing tentatively into the internet world to be treated with kid gloves (and they rarely are anyway, I think most new posters get accused of being a troll before the tenth post in their first thread).

He has substantial experience of posting, and disagreeing with most, on a number of fora worldwide to the extent he's been banned from some.

So should we just leave him alone? And are we treating him unfairly? He's a self-declared expert. He is pushing his expertise very strongly but to many people, me included, it doesn't hang together. Doubts are very reasonable I'd say.

So not unfair to ask him to back up some of his claims of expertise.

My view as well.

According to BS we are all taking our lives in our hands every time we sail our GRP cockleshells.

Where he is he can get GRP boats for nothing they are so poor and undervalued.

Well, there is no way one of BS's steel boats would tempt me away from my chosen vessel. Our heavily laid up American GRP Motorsailer will do fine for us!

The steel boat I have, built from corten steel in 1986, is undoubtedly very sturdy and strong.

Because of circumstances it has not had the care it requires lavished upon it and urgently requires the windows changing and the corrosion around their cut outs dealing with. This will be a job for next year.

About a third of the boats in Evans Bay Marina, where we have just moved the boat to, are fabricated from steel. Apart from Ella, our Hartley, which we have just faked up-as they say in Dublin" to take the bad look off her- "most look shabby with multiple rust streaks from fittings and coating failures. Ella, for the time being-it wont last-looks presentable. My mate Errols boat looks fantastic, but then it always does, and one or two more also look good. The rest of the steel boats look awful.

Looking at the way BS's boats are made, pulled into position with turfer winches, tacked and then welded properly, yes it looks a good way for DIY build.

Our H&S would have a field day if they saw it in action with paid workers! IMHO, without serious attention to H&S, not a commercial goer.

Just seen a 2016 test on a NZ built motor cat built from self coloured (white) HMWPE Polythene. Of welded construction, UV stabilised and is available in a range of colours, including mettalics.

Perhaps BS should be talking to them about buying into origami construction-looks a better bet than steel.

Called the Revo Wasp 742 its builders claim the feel of a GRP boat with the tough durability of an aluminium boat. Completely recycleable at the end of its life, so good for the planet.

HMWPE stands for High Molecular Weight Polythene and is totally different to LDPE-Low Density Polythene-which is used to make kayaks, tenders and other moulded craft. HMWPE is very high tensile by comparison.

Unlike steel, after manufacture it needs no finish coating.

The future perhaps...................................

 

[dom]

Well, JM, he has certainly "wound you up the wrong way". As a matter of interest, what exactly does he need to "exonerate" himself from? Lots of us on this forum have opinions, some of which may not quite align with yours. Do we also have to be exonerated? Why not just leave the guy alone? You're obviously never going to agree. Have you ever built a steel yacht?

JM seems to have strong views here and we’re all guilty of that sometimes. Actually we’re not, that’s what makes this place interesting. The trouble is a mob has formed, which backed Mr Swain against the ropes; he fights back, whereupon we collectively throw our hands up in the air in faux shock.

Come on guys, this thread is tame compared to a mixed martial arts “1-2 Both” bar room brawl

 

[Brent Swain]

I posted the link you refer to, it has a detailed build thread. Real world evidence of the method etc. I do not agree with much Mr Swain says, or maybe I mean, how he says it, but that link showed for real howw they are built. I had a couiple of reservations about some of the details, but how many steel boats have I built.. None. I still feel he does not allow question and debate that would help his cause as he takes it as criticism.
I understand he is trapped in a defensive posture, and none of us are helping that.
I also think the unconventional method of build, with no shear panels and bulkheads is uncomfortable viewing for an engineer. that does not absolutely mean it is wrong though.

One thing I am having trouble with is this insulation/heat retention thing where there is an assertion in this thread that steel is less hot, hot , and less cold, cold... If someone could explain that to me I would be very grateful. Having extensive experience of armoured fighting vehicles it is completely counterintuitive to me.

An uninsulated steel boat would no doubt, be miserable. A thick coat of urethane spray foam,covering every sq cm of steel, over a heavy build up of epoxy makes it, according to friends, who have owned houses ,and live aboard full time, the most comfortable home they have ever had. Works for plastic too, if you seal the deck leaks well enough, as I have pointed put.
With welded down gear, you don't get deck leaks.
Most stock plastic boats have no adequate insulation.
Engineers and number crunchers like thin plate ,and lots of framing.
People who have owned, built, and maintained steel boats over a long time, like thicker plate, for practical reasons the number crunchers don't get.
I was told of a world famous designer who designed a boat with 1/16hplate and no longitudinals, a disaster for anyone trying to build her.

 

[Brent Swain]

https://www.bakersgas.com/weldmyworld/2011/.../side-effects-welding-galvanized-ste...

- Galvanized Steel. ......

Many welders usually weld galvanized steel at some point in their career; and in doing so they may experience galvanize poisoning or metal fume fever. Galvanize poisoning is a condition that ...

For inside welding and painting, I have found it easier to breath air thru 24 feet of 1 1/4 inch plastic sump drain hose than thru a filtre, and the hose doesn't plug up. Some have attached it to a surplus gas mask or a standard mask without the filtre. Put the end up wind, and you have zero chance of breathing any fumes. No need to force the air in, not any benefit in doing so.

 

[Brent Swain]

JM seems to have strong views here and we’re all guilty of that sometimes. Actually we’re not, that’s what makes this place interesting. The trouble is a mob has formed, which backed Mr Swain against the ropes; he fights back, whereupon we collectively throw our hands up in the air in faux shock.

Come on guys, this thread is tame compared to a mixed martial arts “1-2 Both” bar room brawl

The same mob has been following me across the internet, quoting themselves , in quotes they have made under other aliases. ( Like Smackdaddy, etc)
What does that say about their honesty, or credibility?
None would have the balls to try anything like that in a bar room brawl.

 

[Brent Swain]

I tried to upload a drawing but have been told it exceeds the limit.
So here is an example of one of my boats, to give you an idea of what we are discussing. Don't know why pictures work but drawings don't

 

[Brent Swain]

This should give an idea of their underwater profile.
Nice to have the prop where you an reach it from a dinghy.

 

[rotrax]

Content removed

Brent-I have the skills in spades to do as you suggest.

But what you said in an earlier post is total bolleux.

You remember-"I can make a better block than Harken in 20 minutes"

What grade of aluminium are you using? For it to be stronger than one of my OE Harken blocks on my Island Packet it would have to be very good heat treated material. Ordinary aluminium 3/16 sheet is far too soft and would distort.

Also, bending 3/16 aluminium can cause serious stress points as it compresses on the inside of the bend and stretches on the outside. If it is heated to alleviate this-annealing-it needs tempering afterwards to retain its strength.

All this takes more than 20 minutes, and we have not counted cutting the material, dressing the cuts, drilling the hole and making the sheave.

Your home made blocks might do for you, but I prefer to use what you insist are poor quality crap.

As I have never had a block wear, distort or fail, I am happy with my choice.

My issue, as a skilled fabricator with a workshop at home in the UK with everything I need in it-including a 7 foot high Churchill 50 ton press-is that I dispute that you can make a block in the 20 minutes you previously stated, and that it is stronger than a Harken item of the same size.

Attatching a block to a tree and a car is a totally stupid test-using my press would allow the EXACT force required to break/distort/destroy it from the pressure gauge.

Send me one of yours and I will take a similar size Harken and make a scientific comparison.

Hoping to hear from you soon.........................................

 

[Mr Cassandra]

Well, JM, he has certainly "wound you up the wrong way". As a matter of interest, what exactly does he need to "exonerate" himself from? Lots of us on this forum have opinions, some of which may not quite align with yours. Do we also have to be exonerated? Why not just leave the guy alone? You're obviously never going to agree. Have you ever built a steel yacht?

+1

 

[john_morris_uk]

View attachment 68990
I tried to upload a drawing but have been told it exceeds the limit.
So here is an example of one of my boats, to give you an idea of what we are discussing. Don't know why pictures work but drawings don't

The pictures show some pretty looking boats, but obviously don’t tell anything about design criteria.

If you pm me an email address, I will email you and you can email me the drawing and I will make sure it’s posted on here.

You say you’ve been hounded across the various forums. Can you let me know which of the people on YBW who have challenged you have followed you from other places? Send me a list by pm if you prefer?

Just trying to be helpful.

 

[john_morris_uk]

For inside welding and painting, I have found it easier to breath air thru 24 feet of 1 1/4 inch plastic sump drain hose than thru a filtre, and the hose doesn't plug up. Some have attached it to a surplus gas mask or a standard mask without the filtre. Put the end up wind, and you have zero chance of breathing any fumes. No need to force the air in, not any benefit in doing so.

I don’t mean to hound you but if you breathe through a long pipe/hose in the way you suggest you’d die. Actually the urge to rip the mask off would be too strong and you’d gasp for fresh air and probably wouldn’t die.

Doing what you suggest would mean that you’d be rebreathing your own exhaled air. I’ll let someone else explain.

https://www.quora.com/Whats-the-lon...er-hose-a-person-could-breath-through-on-land

 

[rogerthebodger]

I don’t mean to hound you but if you breathe through a long pipe/hose in the way you suggest you’d die. Actually the urge to rip the mask off would be too strong and you’d gasp for fresh air and probably wouldn’t die.

Doing what you suggest would mean that you’d be rebreathing your own exhaled air. I’ll let someone else explain.

https://www.quora.com/Whats-the-lon...er-hose-a-person-could-breath-through-on-land

This is the kind of air feed mask you need when welding zinc. This is used while grit blasting and we don't have the H & S you have in the UK.

[/url]

Brents problem is simple exacerbation. I also have an engineering workshop at home and over 50 years of practical mechanical/ electrical design design engineering skills.

As far at Brent's method of construction is concerned its quite similar to the stitch and tape method used for many plywood boats including the mirror dingy.

My steel boat was designed by Angelo Lavranos and built in the frame and stringer before plating.

https://www.lavranosyachtdesign.co.nz/cruising.htm

Brent's method is a typical frameless construction with a big plate of steel in this case whit a developed shape to allow the sheet to be pulled together and welded. This is followed with stiffening stringers

One of the advantages of Brent's method is that a lot less welding is needed and the problem with welding is distortion and it needs a very skilled steel fabricator to weld up a frame & stringer metal bost without ending up with a bot that looks like a hungry dog. If you end up with a hungry dog you need lots of filler to make it look right.

On Brent's method you reduce the amount of welding and thus the distorsion you get with the heat from welding. This of cause saves time and cost.

I make blocks using laser cut stainless steel sides and vesconite turned pulleys and stainless turned bushes and spacers. Total time is a lot more than 20 minutes, may be 20 minutes to assemble once all the parts are made.

As far as fire is concerned in theory cutting off all air would put a fire inside out but in real life no. A big CO2 cylinder to flood the inside would do the job if corrected designed with enough capacity.

A life raft should be a last resort and I do have a life raft but in a collision of sea you are more likely to have a floating platform after than with a GRP boat purely because of the better puncture resistance of steel than GRP, Wood and even aluminium. You just have to look at these pictures to see that.

My steel boat will have a lot more maintenance in dealing with rust inside that Brent's design due to all the nooks and crannies inside mine that Brent's method does not have.

QM2's paint specification required 25 years paint life before any maintenance so the technology is there.

This kind of damage would have sunk a GRP or Wood boat. This was done by the steel frames of our pontoon moorings. As you can see right through the paint into the steel that started to rust,

GRP has lots of advantages over one off steel construction including cost due to production runs and less maintenance. Its up to the individual to chose what he consider is best for him or her.

As has been said before Brent has a single view and tends to denigrate all others which is what gets people's back up especially those who have a country view.

As far the scantlings, plate thicknesses are concerned in theory a steel boat could be built using 2 mm steel plate but the welding would be a pig even with modem MIG and it would dent easy with the slightest thump. So its not just the strength that need looking at but the manufacturing processed to get a fair and good looking boat at the eng.

Mine is mostly 6 mm plate with 12 and 20 in the keel and stem. Frames are 50 x 50 x 6 angle with stringers 50 x 6 flat bar. Deck is 3 mm steel I would mush prefer 6mm Aluminium for deck and superstructure.

From a structural point of view a big container ship is less structure strength that my 50 ft steel yacht as my yacht can and does stand up out or water without and over stress of the hull. If you did not support a container ship along it full length in a dry dock it would break in half. A long ship is constantly being exposed to stress reversal in it hull and the waves pass under it and the longer/higher the waves the worse it is.

 

[john_morris_uk]

Brents problem is simple exacerbation. I also have an engineering workshop at home and over 50 years of practical mechanical/ electrical design design engineering skills.

As far at Brent's method of construction is concerned its quite similar to the stitch and tape method used for many plywood boats including the mirror dingy.

My steel boat was designed by Angelo Lavranos and built in the frame and stringer before plating.

Brent's method is a typical frameless construction with a big plate of steel in this case whit a developed shape to allow the sheet to be pulled together and welded. This is followed with stiffening stringers

One of the advantages of Brent's method is that a lot less welding is needed and the problem with welding is distortion and it needs a very skilled steel fabricator to weld up a frame & stringer metal bost without ending up with a bot that looks like a hungry dog. If you end up with a hungry dog you need lots of filler to make it look right.

On Brent's method you reduce the amount of welding and thus the distorsion you get with the heat from welding. This of cause saves time and cost.

I make blocks using laser cut stainless steel sides and vesconite turned pulleys and stainless turned bushes and spacers. Total time is a lot more than 20 minutes, may be 20 minutes to assemble once all the parts are made.

As far as fire is concerned in theory cutting off all air would put a fire inside out but in real life no. A big CO2 cylinder to flood the inside would do the job if corrected designed with enough capacity.

A life raft should be a last resort and I do have a life raft but in a collision of sea you are more likely to have a floating platform after than with a GRP boat purely because of the better puncture resistance of steel than GRP, Wood and even aluminium. You just have to look at these pictures to see that.

My steel boat will have a lot more maintenance in dealing with rust inside that Brent's design due to all the nooks and crannies inside mine that Brent's method does not have.

QM2's paint specification required 25 years paint life before any maintenance so the technology is there.


GRP has lots of advantages over one off steel construction including cost due to production runs and less maintenance. Its up to the individual to chose what he consider is best for him or her.

As has been said before Brent has a single view and tends to denigrate all others which is what gets people's back up especially those who have a country view.

As far the scantlings, plate thicknesses are concerned in theory a steel boat could be built using 2 mm steel plate but the welding would be a pig even with modem MIG and it would dent easy with the slightest thump. So its not just the strength that need looking at but the manufacturing processed to get a fair and good looking boat at the eng.

Mine is mostly 6 mm plate with 12 and 20 in the keel and stem. Frames are 50 x 50 x 6 angle with stringers 50 x 6 flat bar. Deck is 3 mm steel I would mush prefer 6mm Aluminium for deck and superstructure.

From a structural point of view a big container ship is less structure strength that my 50 ft steel yacht as my yacht can and does stand up out or water without and over stress of the hull. If you did not support a container ship along it full length in a dry dock it would break in half. A long ship is constantly being exposed to stress reversal in it hull and the waves pass under it and the longer/higher the waves the worse it is.

I have no argument whatsoever with anything you say. Your points are made cogently and succinctly and are balanced and tie in with mine and (I suspect many others) experiences.

(I assume you meant to type '...simple exaggeration' and not '...simple exacerbation' when you were describing Brent's style?)

 

[NormanS]

I don’t mean to hound you but if you breathe through a long pipe/hose in the way you suggest you’d die. Actually the urge to rip the mask off would be too strong and you’d gasp for fresh air and probably wouldn’t die.

Doing what you suggest would mean that you’d be rebreathing your own exhaled air. I’ll let someone else explain.

https://www.quora.com/Whats-the-lon...er-hose-a-person-could-breath-through-on-land

I should really wait for Brent to explain gently to you what he meant. I would think it highly unlikely that he is suggesting breathing both in and out through his tube. Do you think that Scuba divers breathe out back into their air bottles?
Maybe you were just being deliberately argumentative?

 

[Jonas]

I have to agree, there are several ways to make the long tube work as an air supply. I think John has jumped on what he thought was yet another 'issue' without thinking it through.
It isn't a snorkel.
I'd be more concerned about the quality of his welding from what he says!

 

[solent clown]

I should really wait for Brent to explain gently to you what he meant. I would think it highly unlikely that he is suggesting breathing both in and out through his tube. Do you think that Scuba divers breathe out back into their air bottles?
Maybe you were just being deliberately argumentative?

No scuba uses something called a demand valve. Maybe Mr Swain does it manually by blocking the tube with his tongue and blowing past the outside? Sounds like hard work but if it is do able would overcome the problem. Swallowing bugs would be my main concern :encouragement:

Ofr the joker workmate who needs a wee

 

[Brent Swain]

The pictures show some pretty looking boats, but obviously don’t tell anything about design criteria.

If you pm me an email address, I will email you and you can email me the drawing and I will make sure it’s posted on here.

You say you’ve been hounded across the various forums. Can you let me know which of the people on YBW who have challenged you have followed you from other places? Send me a list by pm if you prefer?

Just trying to be helpful.

The trolls are those who only came on this forum after I became active here, and respond mainly to my posts.
My email address is brentswain38@yahoo.ca
I don't have all my drawings in digital form, but will send the ones I have, and photos.
Bob Perry and Smackdaddy, who has been quoting himself here, are my main attackers attacking every single post I have made , on some sites.
Thanks

 

[Brent Swain]

I should really wait for Brent to explain gently to you what he meant. I would think it highly unlikely that he is suggesting breathing both in and out through his tube. Do you think that Scuba divers breathe out back into their air bottles?
Maybe you were just being deliberately argumentative?

Most masks, including gas masks have a one way valve in them, so the air can only flow one direction.

 

[Brent Swain]

I have no argument whatsoever with anything you say. Your points are made cogently and succinctly and are balanced and tie in with mine and (I suspect many others) experiences.

(I assume you meant to type '...simple exaggeration' and not '...simple exacerbation' when you were describing Brent's style?)

No, exacerbation is the right word to describe it.

 

[Brent Swain]

Brent-I have the skills in spades to do as you suggest.

But what you said in an earlier post is total bolleux.

You remember-"I can make a better block than Harken in 20 minutes"

What grade of aluminium are you using? For it to be stronger than one of my OE Harken blocks on my Island Packet it would have to be very good heat treated material. Ordinary aluminium 3/16 sheet is far too soft and would distort.

Also, bending 3/16 aluminium can cause serious stress points as it compresses on the inside of the bend and stretches on the outside. If it is heated to alleviate this-annealing-it needs tempering afterwards to retain its strength.

All this takes more than 20 minutes, and we have not counted cutting the material, dressing the cuts, drilling the hole and making the sheave.

Your home made blocks might do for you, but I prefer to use what you insist are poor quality crap.

As I have never had a block wear, distort or fail, I am happy with my choice.

My issue, as a skilled fabricator with a workshop at home in the UK with everything I need in it-including a 7 foot high Churchill 50 ton press-is that I dispute that you can make a block in the 20 minutes you previously stated, and that it is stronger than a Harken item of the same size.

Attatching a block to a tree and a car is a totally stupid test-using my press would allow the EXACT force required to break/distort/destroy it from the pressure gauge.

Send me one of yours and I will take a similar size Harken and make a scientific comparison.

Hoping to hear from you soon.........................................

Timed myself working with hand tools only. 20 minutes.
Most scrap aluminium around here is marine grade. A 1 1/4inch wide .3/16th alunimum becket is stronger than the thin strips making up the becket on a Harken. I have seen an ad for a Harken, made with proper aluminium side and proper pins, a new model, so it seems they have got the message .
With all that gear, why speculate, when you can do the test so easily? Have you actually bought the argument that speculation is more accurate than reality?
No, one does not need a fully equipped shop and a 50 ton press to build a block. That offers no advantage.Those who don't have such equipment ,have had no problem.
None has ever failed, the final analysis, in many decades of use, making speculation that they will, total nonsense.