Starter boat for family cruising

[Neil]

Many thanks for the many and very informative replies, it's given me a lot to think about.
I have just come across another boat that sounds quite good at a brokerage that is fairly nearby, a Shipman 28 that seems to have quite a nice interior, this being one of the points that will be important to my significant other! 1974 and costs £10950 with a Bukh engine, it has a full cockpit enclosure and Eberspacher heating. I wonder if I should go and have a look. It is (almost) within my budget (10K) but might go for a lower offer I expect.

A Shipman would be a nice boat; I went to see a Shipman myself - it was one of the three that I had earmarked. However, like any boat, try and get the best spec you can for the money. The one I looked at had a new engine, mast and boom (in last two 2 years), repainted topsides etc. On paper it sounded great, but the rest of the boat was well below par, so I passed.

I eventually bought the outsider of the bunch (Sadler 25), really on the basis of a glowing survey and that the seller had spent €10K on it in the last 12 months, including a new engine with all the bits and with 25 hrs on it with three years warranty. We haggled and haggled, and although I paid more for it than I wanted, he didn't get as much as he'd hoped. However, I didn't mind paying a premium; after all, in two or three years, if I want a change and decide to sell, the engine will still be 'new'.

I could still spend another 2K on it to bring it up to 'my' spec - money I'd never really realise on its sale, but that's boating for you!

 

[chartnavigator]

My money would be on a bilge keeled Sabre 27, if you can get hold of a well kept one. For a good one you may pay up to £12G or thereabouts. Had my eye on one recently but she's already gone.

One thing though. Avoid anything with in mast furling. It might sound good for single handed sailing until you get it all out and can't get it back when you need to + it adds to instability.

Now I've started something !

 

[Tranona]

One thing though. Avoid anything with in mast furling. It might sound good for single handed sailing until you get it all out and can't get it back when you need to + it adds to instability.

Now I've started something !

Yes you might have, but it is probably your ignorance showing. In mast furling on boats of the size and type under discussion is rare and is usually of the "add on" type and is usually not suitable for the boat. On the other hand if the boat is designed to be fitted with in mast and the system is used correctly it is very satisfactory, as thousands of happy owners will tell you.

 

[chartnavigator]

Yes you might have, but it is probably your ignorance showing. In mast furling on boats of the size and type under discussion is rare and is usually of the "add on" type and is usually not suitable for the boat.

My point exactly!

 

[dt4134]

Shipman 28

They seem to sail pretty well.


For my tuppenny worth, I'd echo some of the things said above.

Sail on other people's boats for a year or two. You'll learn from them, including sometimes how not to do things, and you will see a variety of boats in use, which will help you decide on the features you do or don't like on a boat.

You've probably already got the message that a common, conventional boat will be much easier to sell when you decide it is not what you wanted in the first place.

When you buy, make sure you get a boat in good condition even if it costs a little bit more. Doing up a rundown boat is expensive.

 

[Tranona]

My point exactly!

But that is not what you said. Suggest if you want to make a specific point you do it clearly then there are no misunderstandings --- however in this instance there has been no suggestion that anybody is recommending a boat with an inappropriate modification, so not sure why you even raised it.

 

[chartnavigator]

But that is not what you said. Suggest if you want to make a specific point you do it clearly then there are no misunderstandings --- however in this instance there has been no suggestion that anybody is recommending a boat with an inappropriate modification, so not sure why you even raised it.

Because when I was looking for a well found Sabre 27 there was one for sale at a brokers which mentioned 'in mast furling' as a presumed selling feature. I notice that after being on there for about 2 years, she has now been removed not sold.

I was merely pointing out the mistake it would be to think that in mast furling would be an advantage on a boat of the type envisaged. Far from being an advantage it is likely to be more of a liability. The more complicated something is, the more likelihood of it malfunctioning when you least require it to do so.

 

[Tranona]

For some people it will be a "selling feature" - and it is right that the broker lists it so that potential buyers know about it. They can then make up their own mind as to whether they want to view and possibly buy the boat.

 

[robertt]

I was wondering, as I will be effectively single handed, assuming both have a roller reefing headsail and lines led to cockpit, is a 28 foot yacht significantly more difficult to handle than a 25 footer? I don't mean in tight manoeuvering like marinas, just general open water sailing?
I also saw an interesting advert for a 25 foot Marcon Tomahawk with price just reduced to 4K but it says engine has been rebuilt. Why would you need to do that? Presumably only for a pretty major fault, in which case is that something to steer clear of?
Thanks for help

 

[Neil]

If the engine has been rebuilt by a company specialising in rebuilding engines, then this is a cause for reassurance. New piston rings, new main bearings, valve seats reground etc, perhaps even the crank journals polished, depending on age and wear, will return the engine back to 'as new' spec. Depends on who did it and why.

 

[robertt]

Thanks Neil
Engine was rebuilt by Volvo engineer (Volvo engine) but doesn't say why. Sounds fairly above board then I suppose.

 

[doug748]

I was wondering, as I will be effectively single handed, assuming both have a roller reefing headsail and lines led to cockpit, is a 28 foot yacht significantly more difficult to handle than a 25 footer......

Generally speaking, the bigger boat will be less of a problem. I would say this holds, on a convenional, cruising, older boat, to at least 35 feet.

The motion is less abrupt and you have more space whilst the basic operations required, remain the same.

 

[bitbaltic]

Generally speaking, the bigger boat will be less of a problem. I would say this holds, on a convenional, cruising, older boat, to at least 35 feet.

The motion is less abrupt and you have more space whilst the basic operations required, remain the same.

I agree with that but would add that, all other things being equal, a bigger boat with bigger sails presents a bigger problem if you find yourself over canvassed, simply on account of bigger forces being involved. This does not much apply to the difference between 25 and 28 feet though IMHO.

 

[ianat182]

Robertt.

Strangely I've found that moving from a shorter length yacht to another significantly longer, say from 25-28 -30 and 34ft presents few problems as regards length, but the beam of the larger yacht is a factor visually when putting alongside a berth. Another aspect is the amount of way(weigh?) carried by the larger yacht when in neutral gear and at low revs.
Larger yachts will tend to have larger and longer cockpit areas and the tiller position more forward from the stern which means that you still have say 20- 24 ft ahead of the steering position of the skipper, so really nothing changes lengthwise looking forward. The crew certainly will have more side deck access too, to move easily forward if required.

As previously stated all the basics are the same it is the weight of sails when the wind pipes up that can become an initial problem, to be solved by practical boat handling and the updating perhaps of some parts of the reefing gear for example.
This aspect will be tackled trip by trip, and another reason for you to peruse these forums for answers that others have found, and fitted or discounted - what the Practical Boat Owner magazine was all about to start with.
What they can't do is persuade your wife to be as enthusiastic, so this should be an early test for you to do beforehand, perhaps as suggested, getting a sail with another couple on a yacht similar to the one you fancy.

Good luck in your search whatever your choice.


ianat182

 

[onesea]

Generally speaking, the bigger boat will be less of a problem. I would say this holds, on a convenional, cruising, older boat, to at least 35 feet.

The motion is less abrupt and you have more space whilst the basic operations required, remain the same.

Hmm I question this, ALLOT depends on layout and reliability of equipment in use.

Certainly 25-28 you will not notice much difference. It will be there an extra step to get to the bow, an extra coil to make on halyard mooring ropes the extra bit to haul the sails up nothing significant...

Having just gone form 24 to 35 foot, there is a difference, yes motion is easier she is comfier in boat handling there is no significant difference. The difference is it now takes me 30mins to get from mooring to sailing instead of 10.

Then neither boat has no lazy jacks, or stack pack... Certainly when the wind picks up I am much more aware of the physical challenges of the sizes of sails if things do not go to plan..

 

[Bazza C]

If anyone reading this thread is interested in knowing about a Verl 900, a lot of information can be found on our website below.
It's mainly about our 1980 Verl 900 'Verlesque' but we have included information about the design and build, specifications and ratios, two versions of the maker's brochure, a sailing review, a sailing slideshow, a register of known Verl 900s and lots of internal and external pictures of our own boat and those submitted by other owners.
On the Comments & Questions page you can also see what other owners think about their Verl 900s. (If you are an owner, feel free to send your own pictures and comments).

We hope this will help any prospective owners.

The website is: http://verl900.wordpress.com/

 

[webcraft]

I think 25/ 26 ft is a good length to be considering for a starter boat as you normally get standing headroom

YOU do, you mean. Persons of average height will generally be hard pushed to find standing headroom in a 25 footer.

- W

 

[robertt]

I thought this thread had fizzled out, but it looks like it has been revived.

Bazza it's interesting that you posted about the Verl 900 because I am now looking at one (before it was a 790 but I have ruled that out on account of interior too cramped). There is a 900 for sale at Tarbert via Boatshed, asking price £12000 and my budget is ideally 10K but might be possible to negotiate price down?

Anyway I have still been looking and narrowing down my options and now my "favourite" boats are:

Verl 900 as above
Dufour 27
Halcyon 27
Shipman 28
Centaur
Viksund 27 motor sailer

These are all within range both geographically and budget wise.

The Halcyon sounds particularly tough and seaworthy.

The Viksund may seem a strange choice but I quite like the accomodation and twin helm position option and one just happened to be for sale locally. It has a small rig however and may not sail all that well.

Any guidance gratefully accepted!

Robert

 

[mcframe]

Any guidance gratefully accepted!

If it doesn't have heating, then budget for heating (and maybe battery capacity to drive it).

There are few other things that make a boat family-friendly as diesel-fired warm-air heating.

Oh, and once you've done that, budget for new sails to make it go faster ;-)

Don't knock the idea of a 'starter boat' - sure you might chop it in after a couple of seasons for a bigger boat, or you might just find it easier to drop a couple of hundred quid each year on toys (heating/sails/fridge/instruments/kite/coppercoat, etc) than £10K for extra 5 feet of length....

(Still on 'first family cruising boat' after 7 years)

 

[webcraft]

And now for my recommendation

.
And no, it's not a Vega . . .

The most family-friendly affordable 25-footer I know is the Cobra 750. Remarkably spacious accommodation and sails really well. 5 berths - two in saloon (or double with infill), saloon table drops to create another double, plus a quarterberth behind the chart table.

This was the first boat SWMBO and I ever sailed on our own, so naturally we have a soft spot - but she sails really well (fin keel model - but I believe the bilge keeler is OK as well) and is a Tardis inside.

- W