Spontaneous combustion.

[Lee Shaw]

I've seen a post on FB about a yacht fire that was thought by the Fire Brigade to have been started by spontaneous combustion of a rubber dinghy stored in a cabin. Has anyone else had a similar experience? The FB thought it is was due to reaction of nitrites in the rubber with traces of grease. There was no other source of ignition.

 

[Refueler]

Just to be difficult .... that would not be "Spontaneous Combustion" ......

"The ignition of organic matter (e.g. hay or coal) without apparent cause, typically through heat generated internally by rapid oxidation."

as example.

But anyway - I would assume that something is missing from the FB report ....

 

[Lee Shaw]

Just to be difficult .... that would not be "Spontaneous Combustion" ......

"The ignition of organic matter (e.g. hay or coal) without apparent cause, typically through heat generated internally by rapid oxidation."

as example.

But anyway - I would assume that something is missing from the FB report ....

Accepted. But the owner said 'Spontaneous ignition' which I assumed is what the FB had told him.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

Low temperature oxidation and auto ignition of organic compounds is known but it usually refers to ozone and volatile organics, I would like to see the report and chemistry, before forming any fixed opinion but it seems a bit of a stretch. However oily rags have been known to combust under some circumstances.

 

[Refueler]

Accepted. But the owner said 'Spontaneous ignition' which I assumed is what the FB had told him.

Interesting .... wonder if the FB's report was selectively quoted ?

Plymouth - Camels Head were called out to attend a Cargo Ship out in Plymouth Bay ... she had a deep seat fire in the hold. She'd been refused unloading in her original port and departed to find safe location ... CO2 was introduced to the holds and she remained closed for days ...

CH FB boarded (Camels Head FB are a leading UK Fire Station that also traned MN Officers / Crew).

They partly opened the hatch and ship erupted into flames ............ (if I remember correctly - two or more FB officers were injured).

Cargo ?

Bananas.

Basically they had been loaded 'past their' green usual load condition and ripened on voyage - giving off methane as they rotted ....

 

[Refueler]

Low temperature oxidation and auto ignition of organic compounds is known but it usually refers to ozone and volatile organics, I would like to see the report and chemistry, before forming any fixed opinion but it seems a bit of a stretch. However oily rags have been known to combust under some circumstances.

For years - we carried sawdust on ships for containing spills on deck .... till the inevitable happened ... then we swapped to sand.

Coal .. Wheat / Grain ... Timber products .... they are examples of cargoes that can easily auto-ignite by way of damp / decay etc. causing increase of deep seat heat.

 

[AntarcticPilot]

Rags soaked in drying oils (e.g linseed oil) can self ignite. That's why you're supposed to lie or hang them flat to dry before disposing of them.

 

[Lee Shaw]

Interesting responses, thank you. My curiosity is roused because of the millions of rubber dinghies there must be out there, I've never heard of one self igniting. Coal, saw dust, oily rags, hay stacks, I can understand but a rubber dinghy.......

 

[Refueler]

Interesting responses, thank you. My curiosity is roused because of the millions of rubber dinghies there must be out there, I've never heard of one self igniting. Coal, saw dust, oily rags, hay stacks, I can understand but a rubber dinghy.......

I think we assume its a 'proper dinghy' but what if its a supermarket kiddies type ?

 

[alahol2]

We've had an Avon in the loft for donkey's years, Are we risking our home?

 

[Gsailor]

As post 2 says: spontaneous combustion does not exist and was debunked years ago - did the fire brigade really say “spontaneous combustion”? They are too knowledgeable to say that IMO.
there is always a cause and post 1 suggests two components creating a cause.

 

[Gsailor]

Interesting .... wonder if the FB's report was selectively quoted ?

Plymouth - Camels Head were called out to attend a Cargo Ship out in Plymouth Bay ... she had a deep seat fire in the hold. She'd been refused unloading in her original port and departed to find safe location ... CO2 was introduced to the holds and she remained closed for days ...

CH FB boarded (Camels Head FB are a leading UK Fire Station that also traned MN Officers / Crew).

They partly opened the hatch and ship erupted into flames ............ (if I remember correctly - two or more FB officers were injured).

Cargo ?

Bananas.

Basically they had been loaded 'past their' green usual load condition and ripened on voyage - giving off methane as they rotted ....

Bananas have set off many a gas alarm in boats I have been on - the gas as you say is detected by the alarm.

 

[Lee Shaw]

I think we assume its a 'proper dinghy' but what if its a supermarket kiddies type ?

I've used the term 'rubber' quite loosely. I guess there's quite a range of natural and synthetic polymers used to make serious dinghies and kids stuff.

 

[Gsailor]

I think we assume its a 'proper dinghy' but what if its a supermarket kiddies type ?

PVC would be the material in that case and not Hypalon- I have no idea if it makes a difference - not my field.

 

[DownWest]

Um, a big problem in workshops that use oils, like linseed, with cloths.
We had a fire in the back field. Lots of sawdust from the house restoration and my boat building. Mistake was, adding waste cooking oil to aid the burn later in the year.
Anyway, on a 30°C plus day it caught fire.. Managed to control it before the fire service arrived. Plus the flics, who were nice about it.
That evening, looking at the Wooden Boat Forum, an acount of a fire in a luthiers workshop. Linseed oil and a rag...

Edit, don't follow the idea of a PVC dinghy, or other plastic, catching fire.

To add, this sounds like an 'opinion' from the FB lot..

 

[fredrussell]

We've had an Avon in the loft for donkey's years, Are we risking our home?

Yes. You are risking an infestation of salty auld seadogs. They say you’re never more than 6ft from one, and there’s few things that attract them more than an old Avon flubber.

 

[Refueler]

As post 2 says: spontaneous combustion does not exist and was debunked years ago - did the fire brigade really say “spontaneous combustion”? They are too knowledgeable to say that IMO.
there is always a cause and post 1 suggests two components creating a cause.

As far as I am aware ... and having owned / setup many labs - combustion factors were a serious element in testing ... 'Spontaneous Combustion' is a grey area and still today discussed.

In the topic as here, as I see it ... its based on generation of heat to such point that it combusts. A good example is cooking oil in a pan ... add heat under the pan - not to the oil direct - as heat builds - the oil smokes ... the finally bursts into flame. Some deem it spontaneous - but in fact its induced by addition of heat creating the Fire Triangle > Heat - Fuel - Oxygen.

I would hazard a guess that there may have been other material or reason UNDER the dinghy ? Even a damp rag screwed up, covered and pressed on by the dinghy ... that could in theory lead to it heating up .... just thoughts and possibles.

 

[Alex_Blackwood]

As far as I am aware ... and having owned / setup many labs - combustion factors were a serious element in testing ... 'Spontaneous Combustion' is a grey area and still today discussed.

In the topic as here, as I see it ... its based on generation of heat to such point that it combusts. A good example is cooking oil in a pan ... add heat under the pan - not to the oil direct - as heat builds - the oil smokes ... the finally bursts into flame. Some deem it spontaneous - but in fact its induced by addition of heat creating the Fire Triangle > Heat - Fuel - Oxygen.

I would hazard a guess that there may have been other material or reason UNDER the dinghy ? Even a damp rag screwed up, covered and pressed on by the dinghy ... that could in theory lead to it heating up .... just thoughts and possibles.

Isn't that called "Flash Point"??

 

[VicS]

Isn't that called "Flash Point"??

No the flash point is the temperature to which the liquid must be heated for the vapour above it to be ignited when a flame is applied.... but under very specific conditions such as in a Pensky Martens closed cup flash point apparatus .

What Refueler is describing would be the "autoignition temperature,. the temperature at which spontaneous combustion will occur in a normal air atmosphere without the application of any ignition source ( such as a flame or a spark)

They can be very different. For example the auto ignition temperature of gasoline is about 280C but the flashpoint is about -43C

 

[Refueler]

No the flash point is the temperature to which the liquid must be heated for the vapour above it to be ignited when a flame is applied.... but under very specific conditions such as in a Pensky Martens closed cup flash point apparatus .

What Refueler is describing would be the "autoignition temperature"

Thank you ... was otherwise engaged - sorting out Beware of Dog signs for me new fence ... 3D printing.

Flash Point ... Open or Closed cup depending on product being tested as VicS says - is the temp at which the vapour produced at surface of product will ignite when ignition source introduced .. such as a sparker or flame.