Spinnaker or cruising Chute

[Blueboatman]

THEN: My last boat I flew spinnaker solo quite a lot and it certainly was loverly. 28 ft fin and spade.

But I also had a drifter which I flew tacked down at the stem and sheeted to a block on the boom end, along with the genoa poled out. We moved along ver nicely with that combo too and it was quick to pop up and down on shorter legs..

NOW: Whilst I am always using cruising chute now @36ft, solo, the spinnaker, which is a truly wunnerful, absolute whopper, has only been flown moored up thus far! But I will, they are so useful as well as all the other useful sails....decisions eh

Go on, get a brand new cruising chute and snuffer, and a secondhand spi to play with as well..

(Then you will hanker possibly for a parasail too....lol)

Nothing more boring than wallowing around or cough cough fumes fumes motoring downwind when with the right sails the boat will fly, eh?

 

[Sandy]

I was told once that there are lots of them in the Caribbean... due to people buying one before they cross the atlantic, then ditching them as soon as they can... but that is only hearsay...

Did they not try them out before buying? Asks cynical Scot.

 

[TeamSpirit]

Chute with snuffer easy to raise and set single handed.

 

[charles_reed]

We use a large asymmetric spinnaker on our 44ft ketch with just the wife and I.
On my last boat, which came with both a chute and spinnaker, we found little benefit of the chute over the large genoa. Downwind the asymmetric spinnaker was a huge improvement on the chute. We sold the chute.
On the current boat the old symmetrical spinnaker was a pig to fly. It jammed in the snuffer and set poorly. The new asymmetric spinnaker and snuffer is a pleasure and can be set with the apparent wind just forward of the beam to dead run even though it is 1700ft2.

My experience (though I don't have a cruising chute but a proper asymmetric genniker), downwind nothing to touch the spi. I sail single handed and both are 89m2.

 

[E39mad]

The only way I'd have a cruising chute over a spinnaker is if it could be tacked onto a retractable bowsprit that can be canted up to 30 degrees to windward. At least that way you have a chance of sailing close to DDW

 

[st599]

Have you considered a Parasail?

http://www.seateach.com/Parasail.htm

They look an intersting soloution and I'll like to try one out.

I've had a bash with one of those. Goes downwind like a spinnaker, but the steering is slightly different as the bows are lifted rather than dropped by the kite.

The thing we liked was how it handled the gusts.

 

[dom]

The thing we liked was how it handled the gusts.

I've somehow managed to never sail with one of these contraptions. I'd be interested to know how it did handle in gusts vis a vis a standard kite.

 

[wully1]

I've had a bash with one of those. Goes downwind like a spinnaker, but the steering is slightly different as the bows are lifted rather than dropped by the kite.

The thing we liked was how it handled the gusts.

I looked into getting one but the cost was way OTT for me to consider.

 

[TimBennet]

. . . as the bows are lifted rather than dropped by the kite.

I'm afraid that's just advertising nonsense. The halyard, guy and sheet all attach to the boat in the same locations as with a conventional spinnaker. Therefore the loads from the spinnaker act on the boat in the same way and there is no spinnaker in the world (even if attached to a long bowsprit) that produces any overall bow lifting force.

You can check this out in a very expensive wind tunnel, or you can get a length of plank with a tall piece of dowel set in it to represent the mast. Now attach three strings to the 'model', one at the top of the dowel to represent the halyard, one to the 'transom' to reprecate the sheet and one to 'midships' to represent the guy. Now float the plank and pull on the strings to represent the forces from the spinnaker and there is no combination that will ever get the 'bow' to lift. Whatever you do the bow will always be depressed.

Any bow lift experienced by sailing boats under spinnaker is caused by the hydrodynamic lift from the hull at the increased speed. If the Parasails have a different 'effect' on the bow, it is because they produce lower forces for a given windspeed due to the big hole in them. But this reduction in forces and improved stability can be achieved by simply taking scissors to any spinnaker. After all, a hole has been used to stabilise parachutes for years. The bigger the hole, the more stable it will be, but the lower the loads.

 

[oldvarnish]

Have you considered a Parasail?

http://www.seateach.com/Parasail.htm

They look an intersting soloution and I'll like to try one out.

I have one and wish I was a little more expert with it, particularly trimming.
Yes, they're v expensive but some here are suggesting you buy a spinnaker and a chute if you want a full wardrobe. If you were to do that, the Parasail wouldn't look expensive by comparison.
If anyone wants to share Parasail experiences, I'm going to start another thread.

 

[flaming]

I'm afraid that's just advertising nonsense. The halyard, guy and sheet all attach to the boat in the same locations as with a conventional spinnaker. Therefore the loads from the spinnaker act on the boat in the same way and there is no spinnaker in the world (even if attached to a long bowsprit) that produces any overall bow lifting force.

Isn't it more that they produce less bow diving force? (which can feel like lift to the driver....)

 

[TimBennet]

Isn't it more that they produce less bow diving force? (which can feel like lift to the driver....)

Yes, as I said they produce lower forces, so they will depress the bow less. But on a lighter boat, they will also drive it less quickly so the hydrodynamic lift will be less and the effect will be for the bow will be less high.

But if you want less bow depression by having lower loads, you could buy a smaller spinnaker or cut a hole in the one you've got. The hole will also stabilise it and make it easier to fly.

 

[doris]

I'm afraid that's just advertising nonsense. The halyard, guy and sheet all attach to the boat in the same locations as with a conventional spinnaker. Therefore the loads from the spinnaker act on the boat in the same way and there is no spinnaker in the world (even if attached to a long bowsprit) that produces any overall bow lifting force.

You can check this out in a very expensive wind tunnel, or you can get a length of plank with a tall piece of dowel set in it to represent the mast. Now attach three strings to the 'model', one at the top of the dowel to represent the halyard, one to the 'transom' to reprecate the sheet and one to 'midships' to represent the guy. Now float the plank and pull on the strings to represent the forces from the spinnaker and there is no combination that will ever get the 'bow' to lift. Whatever you do the bow will always be depressed.

Any bow lift experienced by sailing boats under spinnaker is caused by the hydrodynamic lift from the hull at the increased speed. If the Parasails have a different 'effect' on the bow, it is because they produce lower forces for a given windspeed due to the big hole in them. But this reduction in forces and improved stability can be achieved by simply taking scissors to any spinnaker. After all, a hole has been used to stabilise parachutes for years. The bigger the hole, the more stable it will be, but the lower the loads.

The aerodynamics of parachutes has evolved exponentially over the years from the old double L rounds post war to the modern ram air semi rigid wings. The parasails for soaring have taken this way further. I have used all of these and have a reasonable awareness of how they work.
A conventional spinnaker started out a bit like Mae West's bra, just gathering wind and pulling the boat along. As this happens the halyard pulling from the top of the mast pressures the bow down. Aerodynamics have developed shapes sufficiently for the sail to lift, either via the pole downhall/guy or the bowsprit, as well as pull thereby reducing the down pressure on the now. This what the parasail has taken one step further?
With a aeroplane wing, increasing lift or reducing weight has the same effect. It means you need less power to make the plane fly.
OK I now expect to get flamed so I'll get my coat huh?

 

[TimBennet]

The behaviour of a well designed spinnaker is well known. When running they have always produced 'lift' as the sail is self supporting and spinnaker riding by people at anchor has been practiced since the sixties (to my knowledge).

However to produce bow lift, you have to get the forces transmitted by the three control lines to resolve into a net 'lift' to the bows. Check it out mathematically or empirically - it cannot be done. The killer is the halyard attached to a very long lever way above the pitch centre. The sheet to the aft quarters doesn't help either. Now if you could separate the flying of the kite from the traditional attachments points and have all three traditional lines combine to a location forward of the pitch centre, then you would provide a net aerodynamic lift to the vessel, which is exactly what happens with the Skysail.

The little paraglider wing in a parasail may provide some extra lift to the sail itself, but it needs this to compensate for the extra weight of having the paraglider wing there in the first place. 'Fly-er-bility' of a spinnaker is largely a function of weight (both cloth weight and construction weight, seems etc), followed by shape.

 

[stranded]

Should anyone be inclined to find out for themselves whether the Parasailor actually works, I have just listed mine on ebay! Untried by me so I am unqualified to offer a personal view on effectiveness. Mark

 

[Pinnacle]

Should anyone be inclined to find out for themselves whether the Parasailor actually works, I have just listed mine on ebay! Untried by me so I am unqualified to offer a personal view on effectiveness. Mark

Could you please tell us what the I measurement of your boat is?

 

[flaming]

Should anyone be inclined to find out for themselves whether the Parasailor actually works, I have just listed mine on ebay! Untried by me so I am unqualified to offer a personal view on effectiveness. Mark

I'm intrigued as to why you're selling it without even trying it!

 

[stranded]

I am afraid I have no idea - should I?

 

[Pinnacle]

PM sent.

 

[stranded]

Just too much sail for me - spinnakers look always to be on the edge of control! Plus have a cruising chute and happy enough gybing downwind. Got a healthy reserve though so if it doesn't meet that then maybe one day I'll have a play.