Spinnaker or cruising Chute

[flaming]

Just too much sail for me - spinnakers look always to be on the edge of control! Plus have a cruising chute and happy enough gybing downwind. Got a healthy reserve though so if it doesn't meet that then maybe one day I'll have a play.

The penny has just dropped that you must have inherited it when you bought the boat, rather than ordering one but selling it before even trying it. I think I need an afternoon coffee....

 

[Seajet]

I know someone who has a 22' sailing boat, he has never sailed dinghies and is the only peson I've ever come across who is unteachable, he just keeps the sheets pinned in on any point of sail and thinks I'm being over-fussy; unsurprisingly he also thinks anything except beating is incredibly slow.

I swapped him some gear I was replacing for the spinnaker which came with his boat, partly as he wouldn't use it and partly in an attempt to keep him out of the RNLI statistics in case he ever did try it.

He promptly went out and bought a new spinnaker which has had a few years sitting there in the bag now...

 

[stranded]

Your mate sounds like a man after my heart!

 

[Sailfree]

Thanks for al the advice.

As we are used to a spinnaker on the wayfarer and the boat was fitted out for a spinnaker plus the already 135% genoa decided to go for a Tri-radial Spinnaker.

Bought one but insisted on a GRP inverted toilet seat type snuffer to ease getting it down.

Went for 19' (EDIT 49')x 25' in Ripstock nylon 1.5oz which is just a litle under the max size for a Jeanneau 43DS

Will start off playing in light winds on boys weekends. Got to get expert for the Scuttlebutt Cherbourg Cruise on 13th Sept if light winds.

On a 43' boat I am considering running/v broad reaching with the spinnaker up to 18-20kts wind with experience - is that too ambitions. Deduct say 6-8kts boat speed and thats 10kts apparent wind. Sorry if that offends you racers that fly a spinnaker in gales but I am sailing the big boat for pleasure - Wayfarer is for racing.

Anyone consider giving some advice to a Big Boat Spinnaker Virgin to speed up my learning curve eg at what true wind speed to I bottle out!! I will be going for a lazy guy/sheet system. Does keeping a hankerchief of the Genoa out but tight help prevent getting a spinnaker wrap?

 

[flaming]

On a 43' boat I am considering running/v broad reaching with the spinnaker up to 18-20kts wind with experience - is that too ambitions. Deduct say 6-8kts boat speed and thats 10kts apparent wind. Sorry if that offends you racers that fly a spinnaker in gales but I am sailing the big boat for pleasure - Wayfarer is for racing.

Anyone consider giving some advice to a Big Boat Spinnaker Virgin to speed up my learning curve eg at what true wind speed to I bottle out!! I will be going for a lazy guy/sheet system. Does keeping a hankerchief of the Genoa out but tight help prevent getting a spinnaker wrap?

Sounds about right - actually a bit high maybe for relaxed cruising. Flew the kite almost all the way from Dartmouth to the Solent last summer on my dad's boat. Wind got up from about 10kts to mid 20s and I wound up driving from Portland all the way to the needles because the autopilot couldn't cope, and I was really enjoying myself!

I wouldn't complicate things by having the genoa out, you won't prevent wraps unless you've got it all out, but it will make the spinnaker more likely to collapse.

 

[Sailfree]

Thanks for that . One question 10-20kts - was it true or apparent?

 

[geem]

Thanks for that . One question 10-20kts - was it true or apparent?

With a husband and wife team flying a 160m2 spinnaker I work on 15-18 knots true as about the limit (to ensure we stay married).

 

[flaming]

Thanks for that . One question 10-20kts - was it true or apparent?

True.

 

[Sailfree]

Thanks Guys that's helpful

Roger

 

[nigelmercier]

My boat partner bought a chute for our boat. When I bought him out, I asked him to remove it, more trouble than it's worth.

 

[bbg]

Spinnaker.

Problem with cruising chutes is that they're not actually very good when you want to go downwind. They like broad reaching. You can pole the tack out but then you might as well have a proper kite in the first place.

My dad had cruising chutes on 2 boats but we almost never flew the thing without poling out the tack, so for his current boat he bought a proper spinnaker and it's far more useful for light wind sailing deep downwind.

Yes they aren't quite as easy as a cruising chute, but they're not really all that hard.

I generally agree with this - with one caveat. What is appropriate for one crew might not be appropriate for another. A crew that simply is not comfortable with the extra complexity of a spinnaker might never fly it, although that same crew might fly the simpler to deploy cruising chute.

A middle ground option is to fly a cruising chute from the tack line but add a guy to it as well. If you find you have a long downwind leg, rig the pole and ease the tack line as you grind some tension onto the guy. Eventually transfer the load from the tack line to the guy then fly the cruising chute like a spinnaker. This requires a tack line that is adjustable on a winch from the cockpit.

If things really go pear shaped you can reverse the process, get the load back onto the tack line and take the pole out of the equation.

 

[silver-fox]

That's assuming you have a full crew.
To rig our spinnaker safely we need four crew - these days this rarely happens.
As a result our kite saw daylight only rarely (once a season - if that).
Sold it and bought a cruising chute.
Gets a lot more use, even if it's just me and one crew.

+1

 

[Daydream believer]

I'm afraid that's just advertising nonsense. The halyard, guy and sheet all attach to the boat in the same locations as with a conventional spinnaker. Therefore the loads from the spinnaker act on the boat in the same way and there is no spinnaker in the world (even if attached to a long bowsprit) that produces any overall bow lifting force.

You can check this out in a very expensive wind tunnel, or you can get a length of plank with a tall piece of dowel set in it to represent the mast. Now attach three strings to the 'model', one at the top of the dowel to represent the halyard, one to the 'transom' to reprecate the sheet and one to 'midships' to represent the guy. Now float the plank and pull on the strings to represent the forces from the spinnaker and there is no combination that will ever get the 'bow' to lift. Whatever you do the bow will always be depressed.

Any bow lift experienced by sailing boats under spinnaker is caused by the hydrodynamic lift from the hull at the increased speed. If the Parasails have a different 'effect' on the bow, it is because they produce lower forces for a given windspeed due to the big hole in them. But this reduction in forces and improved stability can be achieved by simply taking scissors to any spinnaker. After all, a hole has been used to stabilise parachutes for years. The bigger the hole, the more stable it will be, but the lower the loads.

If you have ever sailed a shearwater cat you would know that to be not entirely correct. It has been found that in heavy weather the spinnaker lifts the bow, whereas the main/jib only combination actually allows the bow to dig in & trip the boat
As a shearwater does not plane like an ordinary dinghy having narrow hulls I would not put the lift down to planing

 

[Daydream believer]

I would much prefer a spinnaker but made the mistake of buying a cruising chute with the boat so I am stuck with it
No one has mentioned the wind limits of a cruising chute
I have a 64 M2 chute on a 31 ft boat & it is a real pain.
I cannot use it dead down wind & so have to reach off to fill it.
the trouble then is that in any breeze the sail now becomes too big & so has to be dropped sooner
With a spinnaker i could run dead down wind & fly it in much heavier winds as the boat is more stable with the wind dead aft
Admittedly I would also have to drop the spinnaker If I was reaching in the same strength of wind but with a good genoa & the big main on my boat it does not increase speed that much

 

[MarlynSpyke]

There is another downwind sail possibility, although it’s still work in progress.

I have on my boat (Dufour Classic 30) a 440 sq ft (41 sq m) downwind sail which flies from the bow, it’s supported by the spinnaker halyard, has port and starboard sheets leading to blocks on the quarters, and the foot of the sail is kept spread by a light spar made from a sailboard mast, the centre of the spar being attached by a line (about 6ft) to the bow roller. The sail above the spar has a stable aerodynamic shape which keeps it extended in a breeze of 5 kt true or above. The sail is of simple structure, without slots or extra foils (unlike the Parasailor), the lift and extension to keep it flying is provided by the shaping of the canopy itself, so it should be relatively low cost to make.

It does not use a spinnaker pole, and is free to swing in front of the boat. It works in apparent winds from dead astern to just ahead of the beam, and crucially does not have to be gybed. As the wind crosses the stern, the sail still keeps drawing ahead of the boat, it just swings round a little. You may not even need to adjust the sheets.

I designed it to be easy to raise and lower singlehanded, which it is: attach the spar line to the bow roller, haul the sail up with the halyard, and adjust the sheets. To lower, pull in a tripping or snuffing line which draws the middle of the sail together and collapses it, then gather in the collapsed sail as you lower it on the halyard. The tripping line can be led back to the cockpit, so the sail can be rapidly gathered in and depowered in an emergency, although the need has not arisen yet. The tripping line keeps the sail nicely under control, it never need fall into the water.

It works well downwind, giving a steady ride with little heeling and no tendency to roll. With mainsail down, there is no risk of gybing or broaching. In a test run in 17 kt true, gusting 19+, the ride was smooth and comfortable.

So why don’t we see these sails around? Well, my prototype – huge thanks to Ivan Bole and Arun Sails for making it – is so far the only one in the world. This is a cruising sail, easy handling and safety are its big points, but for racing with full crews the highly developed standard spinnaker will still give best performance. Racing is where the money is, and the big sailmakers have shown no sign of interest in developing this cruising downwind sail. I have allowed my patent on it to lapse, as I saw little prospect of recouping the substantial renewal fees, so the design is now available for anyone to develop and use.

Details of this project are in the Amateur Yacht Society’s Catalyst publication, at http://www.ayrs.org/Catalyst_N36_Oct_2009.pdf . The article is “From Table Top to Sea: A new Design of Downwind Sail” by Michael Simons, and describes the progress from small table-top models through a dinghy-size sail made from polythene dust-sheet to the full size yacht prototype in spinnaker cloth. Fuller details of the sail and its performance are given there.

The sail is shown in the picture – the wide-angle lens makes it look smaller than it is, it’s 25ft wide and 25ft high. Recent tests show the spar at the foot can be reduced from the 10ft shown to 7.5ft. The next prototype, if made, will be bigger, the initial sizing was done cautiously.

 

[flaming]

There is another downwind sail possibility, although it’s still work in progress.

I have on my boat (Dufour Classic 30) a 440 sq ft (41 sq m) downwind sail which flies from the bow, it’s supported by the spinnaker halyard, has port and starboard sheets leading to blocks on the quarters, and the foot of the sail is kept spread by a light spar made from a sailboard mast, the centre of the spar being attached by a line (about 6ft) to the bow roller. The sail above the spar has a stable aerodynamic shape which keeps it extended in a breeze of 5 kt true or above. The sail is of simple structure, without slots or extra foils (unlike the Parasailor), the lift and extension to keep it flying is provided by the shaping of the canopy itself, so it should be relatively low cost to make.

It does not use a spinnaker pole, and is free to swing in front of the boat. It works in apparent winds from dead astern to just ahead of the beam, and crucially does not have to be gybed. As the wind crosses the stern, the sail still keeps drawing ahead of the boat, it just swings round a little. You may not even need to adjust the sheets.

I designed it to be easy to raise and lower singlehanded, which it is: attach the spar line to the bow roller, haul the sail up with the halyard, and adjust the sheets. To lower, pull in a tripping or snuffing line which draws the middle of the sail together and collapses it, then gather in the collapsed sail as you lower it on the halyard. The tripping line can be led back to the cockpit, so the sail can be rapidly gathered in and depowered in an emergency, although the need has not arisen yet. The tripping line keeps the sail nicely under control, it never need fall into the water.

It works well downwind, giving a steady ride with little heeling and no tendency to roll. With mainsail down, there is no risk of gybing or broaching. In a test run in 17 kt true, gusting 19+, the ride was smooth and comfortable.

So why don’t we see these sails around? Well, my prototype – huge thanks to Ivan Bole and Arun Sails for making it – is so far the only one in the world. This is a cruising sail, easy handling and safety are its big points, but for racing with full crews the highly developed standard spinnaker will still give best performance. Racing is where the money is, and the big sailmakers have shown no sign of interest in developing this cruising downwind sail. I have allowed my patent on it to lapse, as I saw little prospect of recouping the substantial renewal fees, so the design is now available for anyone to develop and use.

Details of this project are in the Amateur Yacht Society’s Catalyst publication, at http://www.ayrs.org/Catalyst_N36_Oct_2009.pdf . The article is “From Table Top to Sea: A new Design of Downwind Sail” by Michael Simons, and describes the progress from small table-top models through a dinghy-size sail made from polythene dust-sheet to the full size yacht prototype in spinnaker cloth. Fuller details of the sail and its performance are given there.

The sail is shown in the picture – the wide-angle lens makes it look smaller than it is, it’s 25ft wide and 25ft high. Recent tests show the spar at the foot can be reduced from the 10ft shown to 7.5ft. The next prototype, if made, will be bigger, the initial sizing was done cautiously.

View attachment 41112

Fascinating stuff!

First thought is that it looks like an extended Kitesurfing kite, but without the inflatable spar at the top. I wonder if adding the inflatable part might make the sail even more stable, and could the bottom of the sail be brought down to a point - so eliminating the need for the spar at the foot? Or even do away with the bottom section below the sheets entirely - possibly making the sail wider.

How does it work once the wind starts coming forward?

 

[MarlynSpyke]

Fascinating stuff!

First thought is that it looks like an extended Kitesurfing kite, but without the inflatable spar at the top. I wonder if adding the inflatable part might make the sail even more stable, and could the bottom of the sail be brought down to a point - so eliminating the need for the spar at the foot? Or even do away with the bottom section below the sheets entirely - possibly making the sail wider.

How does it work once the wind starts coming forward?

Early versions had an upper spar - in fact the starting concept was a square sail with side "wings" - but I found you could do away with the upper spar. An inflatable spar could perhaps be helpful, at the expense of simplicity. A key part of the design is the cut-away below the sheeting points, this allows air to escape downwards, providing lift to the whole structure. But you do seem to need a flat section of some width at the bottom, make it too narrow and you lose stability. But it would be great if you could eliminate the lower spar as well. The lower spar does take quite a lot of force, early versions snapped.

I've had the sail flying in models with wind 20 deg ahead of the beam, but it produces little or no forward drive then. Apparent wind at 90 deg is about the limit in practice (which means true wind behind the beam, depending on boat and wind speed).

 

[Blueboatman]

Michael, that is clever stuff, thank you for sharing.

I am wondering what two lower spars, hinged up and forward slightly from the stem head, would add or detract from your clever design( maybe in a squall or wind shift they would be forgiving) .. But I am writing as the thought occurs and b4 thinking iit through a bit ....one would lose the floating aspect which is prob fundamental to its user friendliness..
Great pic.
I have always had good sail chats with Ivan at Arun btw and happily bunged business their way
Regs Tim

 

[Racecruiser]

Re snuffers - I've only ever been involved with a snuffer once and didn't enjoy the experience much. 50 footer with a big asymetric cruisy chute. I was told 'All you do is pull the retrieval line and the sock comes down the sail'. Except with a bit of flogging/half filling the frigging thing was a real fight and nearly launched me off the foredeck a few times. With hindsight we should have born away onto a run so that some of it was behind the main but even then you could still get a sudden part fill.

So that put me off them - or panel was I doing something wrong? So I would go for a conventional take-down when you would have a headsail up to blanket the kite but I can't imagine that being possible with a snuffer.

Funnily enough when I've raced 2-handed we've sometimes done better spinnaker drops than with a full crew - must be about taking time and preparing, eg with the halyard locked at two thirds drop.

 

[doris]

Re snuffers - I've only ever been involved with a snuffer once and didn't enjoy the experience much. 50 footer with a big asymetric cruisy chute. I was told 'All you do is pull the retrieval line and the sock comes down the sail'. Except with a bit of flogging/half filling the frigging thing was a real fight and nearly launched me off the foredeck a few times. With hindsight we should have born away onto a run so that some of it was behind the main but even then you could still get a sudden part fill.

So that put me off them - or panel was I doing something wrong? So I would go for a conventional take-down when you would have a headsail up to blanket the kite but I can't imagine that being possible with a snuffer.

Funnily enough when I've raced 2-handed we've sometimes done better spinnaker drops than with a full crew - must be about taking time and preparing, eg with the halyard locked at two thirds drop.

This has been done to death in the past and I'm sure Flaming will come and shoot me but......
it's simple to use a snuffer behind a headsail, you just let that sail collapse the kite then pull on the downhaul. Retrieval from under the jib is easy. A broad reach is fine.
I am impressed with your courage, snuffing a shy kite bare headed on a 50 footer is heroic.