Southerly 100...it can float in a pond, but can it cross the pond?

[Tranona]

I was thinking mostly of electrics - quite apart from voltage, I understand that bonding requirements are very different. I've seen several accounts of people importing biggish boats and needing a full electrical refit to meet RCD.

Don't think there is anything in the RCD that covers bonding, although US practice is different from European practice. Electrics is different because US spec equipment does not have CE approval. Two biggest problems for US boats meeting RCD is basic design calculations to determine category and certifying engines and generators to current CE specs.

 

[Tranona]

As I understand it the original - one might say crude / simple - lift keel arrangement on early Southerlys designed by Dick Carter has been superceded by something else possibly more hydraulically elegant, though still not something any racing owner will gaze at longingly.

As I said, working on lift keels just requires forward planning, ranging from a couple of weeks spare time to make high Anderson 22 trestles to contacting yards and acquiring specialist cradles / permission from yards to dig drained pits with larger boats.

Suggest you actually look at the keel arrangers before commenting. Later ones are more sophisticated, mainly because of the size, but the basic concepts is the same.

Big, complex boats like these need the right equipment to handle them out of the water, so not DIY friendly. However if you have the kit it can be done as I suggested earlier.

 

[Seajet]

Tranona,

yet again you jump in with both feet seeking to decry anything I say, and once again you are wrong.

I described the requirements of larger lift keel boats, now you say they require the right handling kit...

I said later Southerly keels had 'been developed ', you say they are ' now more sophisticated '...

Question; who has 36 years + with lift keel boats of all sizes not just 22' ?

Give it a rest why don't you...

 

[E39mad]

The early Southerlies had triangular shaped keels - the 100 has a 5'10 draught, 115 6'8" iirc. Both could be sat in yacht cradles and the keels lowered to clean off and antifoul. Yes to get at the pivot pin you'd need to drop the grounding plate, done by undoing the keel bolts and kevlar lines attached to the aft top end of the keel.The kevlar lines, and hydraulics can all be easily accessed from inside the boat .

The Humphreys designed 135 from 1988 and 115 series 2 from 1992 had deeper more modern keel design providing greater stiffness under sail, better windward and offwind performance. 115 draught increased to 8'2" fully down yet still only 2'3" fully retracted. The keel is integral with the grounding plate and a great piece of design /engineering.

 

[sailorman]

The early Southerlies had triangular shaped keels - the 100 has a 5'10 draught, 115 6'8" iirc. Both could be sat in yacht cradles and the keels lowered to clean off and antifoul. Yes to get at the pivot pin you'd need to drop the grounding plate, done by undoing the keel bolts and kevlar lines attached to the aft top end of the keel.

The Humphreys designed 135 from 1988 and 115 series 2 from 1992 had deeper more modern keel design providing greater stiffness under sail, better windward and offwind performance. 115 draught increased to 8'2" fully down yet still only 2'3" fully retracted. The keel is integral with the grounding plate and a great piece of design /engineering.

Was it not Dick Carter who designed the grounding plate & keel

 

[Seajet]

E39mad,

thanks for the info - I'd sort of known it but forgotten the details !

To lower the keel plate though, surely if one could get at the pin and support the plate along it's length one could just remove the plate at say 30 degrees, requiring a much shallower pit/ lower height of trestle - cradle ?

 

[prv]

For what it's worth, there's a fair-sized Southerly that sits on a cradle in our yard over winter, and I'm fairly sure I've seen the keel both up and down at different times. Don't remember much about the cradle, and it may well have been sturdier than the normal props, but it wasn't notably, memorably, massive.

Pete

 

[E39mad]

Was it not Dick Carter who designed the grounding plate & keel

Bryan Moffat - original Northshore owner - definately had a big input into the design of the hydraulic side whilst Dick Carter designed the hull and keel shape/rudders of the original 95, 105 and 135, all of which had lifting transom hung rudders. These original boats were developed in house to become the 100, 115 and 145 respectively and had shallower fixed but protected rudder.

 

[E39mad]

E39mad,

thanks for the info - I'd sort of known it but forgotten the details !

To lower the keel plate though, surely if one could get at the pin and support the plate along it's length one could just remove the plate at say 30 degrees, requiring a much shallower pit/ lower height of trestle - cradle ?

It's not possible to get at the pin without withdrawing the grounding plate. The whole system is watertight being surrounded by thick GRP. However the pin even on the smallest keels were 2" circumference stainless steel surrounded by a bronze bush. Stoppers at either end of the bolt ensured no sideways movement.

 

[Seajet]

E39,

I'd rather hoped one could have withdrawn the pin to inspect and /or replace it, ditto the mountings it goes into; I take it that's not practical without major surgery - which is all feasible and probably just a PITA - financial as well as organisational etc- but I do wish designers would be given the free reign I'm sure all good ones wish for, to have the system replacable after the guarantee runs out !

Corrosion is of course a factor, but should not be significant for decades if attention is paid to anodes etc.

While my boat has a sensible for the size vertically raising keel, I can't resist mentioning we with Anderson 22's may well be unique among older boats and quite possibly among new ones in having new relatively easily fitted keels available ' off the shelf '....

 

[maby]

For what it's worth, there's a fair-sized Southerly that sits on a cradle in our yard over winter, and I'm fairly sure I've seen the keel both up and down at different times. Don't remember much about the cradle, and it may well have been sturdier than the normal props, but it wasn't notably, memorably, massive.

Pete

I think you'll find that the issue is as much yard H&S policy as it is actual practicality. When we were thinking of buying the Feeling, I discussed options for keel maintenance with the manager of our local yard and his response was a simple "no" - he would not consider any arrangement that had the boat suspended in a cradle several feet above the ground. The weight was to be taken on the stub keel at all times with cradle or other props simply providing stability.

 

[E39mad]

E39,

I'd rather hoped one could have withdrawn the pin to inspect and /or replace it, ditto the mountings it goes into; I take it that's not practical without major surgery - which is all feasible and probably just a PITA - financial as well as organisational etc- but I do wish designers would be given the free reign I'm sure all good ones wish for, to have the system replacable after the guarantee runs out !

Corrosion is of course a factor, but should not be significant for decades if attention is paid to anodes etc.
)

To be fair to the whole design, it was so well engineered that generally boats that were ten years old had their whole keel systems dropped and the pins were fine and is was more the cast iron plate and keel bolts that needed treatment or replacing the bolts on the back end of the keel that held the kevlar lines.

 

[MagicIsland]

Bought a Southerly 105 last year complete with cradle, previous owner had it sat on the cradle and the keel lowered to have it shot blasted y done in a yard in Wadebridge, will post a pic tomorrow so you can all see the keel and the cradle. At Wells we have a large slipway trolley that the fishing boats use to antifoul plan to try that this year :encouragement:

 

[Seajet]

MagicIsland,

sounds like you've got it sorted !

 

[Greenheart]

MagicIsland, sounds like you've got it sorted !

Yes indeed, I look forward to seeing the pic when you can post it.

 

[Seajet]

I think you'll find that the issue is as much yard H&S policy as it is actual practicality. When we were thinking of buying the Feeling, I discussed options for keel maintenance with the manager of our local yard and his response was a simple "no" - he would not consider any arrangement that had the boat suspended in a cradle several feet above the ground. The weight was to be taken on the stub keel at all times with cradle or other props simply providing stability.

Maby,

funny you should say that.

With my 22' lift keeler on high enough trestles to let the keel extend to full 4'6", there is of course the snag - just the same as a fin keeler on props but moreso - of antifouling the bits where the supports are.

With the 22' it's a simple case of using a reinforced veed block and jacking the boat up slightly one end ata time just enough to shuffle the trestles along from the unpainted strips.

The beauty of trestles is that the boat is always safe if something goes wrong with the jack; I'd think more than twice before doing this with props, in fact have a fit at the idea !

At our club last weekend a lift keeler using trestles of a design supplied by me - not an Anderson 22, I give the plans to any similar boat - had asked for a jack and been told no it's dodgy !

As I know and admire the people concerned I think the old mixture - which has led to many a war in the past let alone boat launch painting hiccups - was lack of communication and pressure to get things done !

So as I have tried to intimate, if one has a lift keeler and wants to be able to work on it, foresight, foreplanning and therefore having trestles, cradles or indeed pits sorted out first is paramount.

Like most things in life, it's a doddle if one asks first - but could easily become a little war if one just turned up unannounced expecting to do things...

 

[maby]

Maby,

funny you should say that.

With my 22' lift keeler on high enough trestles to let the keel extend to full 4'6", there is of course the snag - just the same as a fin keeler on props but moreso - of antifouling the bits where the supports are.

With the 22' it's a simple case of using a reinforced veed block and jacking the boat up slightly one end ata time just enough to shuffle the trestles along from the unpainted strips.

The beauty of trestles is that the boat is always safe if something goes wrong with the jack; I'd think more than twice before doing this with props, in fact have a fit at the idea !

At our club last weekend a lift keeler using trestles of a design supplied by me - not an Anderson 22, I give the plans to any similar boat - had asked for a jack and been told no it's dodgy !

As I know and admire the people concerned I think the old mixture - which has led to many a war in the past let alone boat launch painting hiccups - was lack of communication and pressure to get things done !

So as I have tried to intimate, if one has a lift keeler and wants to be able to work on it, foresight, foreplanning and therefore having trestles, cradles or indeed pits sorted out first is paramount.

Like most things in life, it's a doddle if one asks first - but could easily become a little war if one just turned up unannounced expecting to do things...

All true, sir - but with one further observation that you are talking about a small boat - the problems multiply as the size goes up! We were looking at a 40' Feeling and the weight to be supported would have been around ten tons - building a cradle to safely take that sort of weight is a specialist job - particularly if it is require to easily dismantle for storage when not in use. I'm afraid that lift keels simply add an extra level of complexity both mechanically and logistically when it comes to maintenance - our local boat yard has a stock of cradles for fixed keel boats that they lend to us but if you want to raise your lift keeler for maintenance, you are on your own and possibly having to solve some significant construction issues.

 

[Seajet]

Maby,

I have mentioned the factors increasing drastically on larger lift keelers several times in this thread - and mentioned that personally I might not want to bother with a lift keel on a large boat, that later post of mine was just an example of something which happened the other day.

 

[maby]

Maby,

I have mentioned the factors increasing drastically on larger lift keelers several times in this thread

I certainly was not having a dig at you - just reiterating for Dan that his 10m Southerly implies some significant engineering in order to be able to do a proper job of maintenance!

 

[45South]

Southerly's are excellent and if maintained well then are great value for the money compared to the huge cost of a new comparable vessel