Southerly 100...it can float in a pond, but can it cross the pond?

[Seajet]

Dan,

forget Guatemala, there's one we tied up alongside in my chums' boat last week which I honestly thought had been recovered from a sinking - in fact still a possibility - a white boat but absolutely everything green - hull, topsides, lines, sails - clearly untouched for many years or maybe decades...yet she's in a marina so the fees must be paid somehow.

My chum ( who is new to the place ) reckons maybe the owner has expired and somehow a standing order from his estate is paying and nobody noticing or caring...

Either way sad to see, they're not my cup of tea but it's a waste of a boat which could be fun for somebody - I'd want a serious hauled out look at the lift keel & gear though !

 

[JumbleDuck]

No. The boat was built long before the RCD was thought of.

Good point. However, I presume the Southerly could and perhaps do make non-RCD compliant boats for non-EEA markets, just as American manufacturers sometime produce both RCD-compliant and non-RCD compliant versions of their boats.

 

[Greenheart]

...there's one alongside my chums' boat...a white boat, everything green - hull, topsides, lines, sails, untouched for years, maybe decades...I'd want a serious haul-out & look at the lift keel & gear!

Hmm. I've read that the swing-keel pivot is an issue that deters potential buyers of old centreboarders, though I'd have thought original construction of such bits would be massive...

...not as if there's any need to save weight in that area - so couldn't the manufacturer use a pin about 4" thick and big industrial rubber skids to stop the board rattling when lowered?

 

[doug748]

Never mind foreign trips, get yourself down to Devon and buy this:

http://yachts.apolloduck.co.uk/advert.phtml?id=337442

 

[Greenheart]

Very nice, thanks. Actually I'm not in the market, but I reckon a British-made shallow-draft sailboat with internal helm is so suitable for UK weather and harbours, I was always surprised that Southerly was just about the only yard building them. They seem to have sold plenty, so I'd have expected another company to attempt getting a share of the market.

Still, it looks an unlikely choice for transatlantic or Pacific coast sailing.

I remember reading (in the 1980s) about a proposed Southerly flagship, the 155. I don't think they ever built her, but now I can't even find any reference to it. Anybody remember it?

 

[maby]

Hmm. I've read that the swing-keel pivot is an issue that deters potential buyers of old centreboarders, though I'd have thought original construction of such bits would be massive...

...not as if there's any need to save weight in that area - so couldn't the manufacturer use a pin about 4" thick and big industrial rubber skids to stop the board rattling when lowered?

My concern was the simple practicalities of cleaning and antifouling the plate and casing. Our boatyard was unwilling to support the boat long-term in any kind of cradle that would keep it far enough off the ground for the plate to be deployed - when I asked how I could clean and antifoul the plate and casing, they suggested holding it in the crane for a couple of hours over lunch - hardly long enough to do a proper job of it. We met a local contractor antifouling a Feeling in the boat park and asked him how he was going to do the centreboard - he said he wasn't.

We decided to go for something deep keeled that could stand up in the boat park and allow us to do a proper job.

 

[maby]

Very nice, thanks. Actually I'm not in the market, but I reckon a British-made shallow-draft sailboat with internal helm is so suitable for UK weather and harbours, I was always surprised that Southerly was just about the only yard building them. They seem to have sold plenty, so I'd have expected another company to attempt getting a share of the market.

...

As always, it comes down to demand and price, doesn't it? Have you looked at the price of Southerlies and compared it with mass produced AWBs of similar size and specification? There's no doubt that they are nice boats, but can they justify the price premium over a BeneJeanBav?

 

[Greenheart]

Our boatyard was unwilling to support the boat long-term in any kind of cradle that would keep it far enough off the ground for the plate to be deployed.

I wonder why? Granted it'd be necessary to get the use of the boat-lift machine when there weren't fifty other boats awaiting its function, but once suspended, all the work could be done with ladders or cherry-picker over a day or two, couldn't it?

I'm not sure the Southerly's price can be explained only by the unusual design-features which particularly differ from typical AWBs - everything built by Northshore was always pretty expensive as I remember, not in the same class as mass-produced Frenchies.

I can't deny the costs in building motorsailers (which I suppose the Southerly boats must be categorised as) but it's sad that only Southerly found a market for centreboard boats with indoor helms. Yes, they're more expensive, but no yacht is cheap...I know if I was deciding between a new 31ft motorsailer which I could use in all weathers and park cheaply on a shallow/drying mooring, OR for the same money, a 38ft fin keeler needing a deep-water mooring and offering no shelter over the wheel...I'd prefer the boat which would suit my use...

...I'm always surprised when I'm asked here to believe that the majority of British-based yacht buyers wouldn't prefer a shallow draft option with an all-weather steering position. They must get much less use from their purchase, than a design like a Southerly would have permitted.

 

[maby]

I wonder why? Granted it'd be necessary to get the use of the boat-lift machine when there weren't fifty other boats awaiting its function, but once suspended, all the work could be done with ladders or cherry-picker over a day or two, couldn't it?

....

I think it is a purely mechanical problem - boat yard cradles are not designed to carry the multiple tons that even a relatively small yacht weighs. The assumption is that the weight is carried on the keel and the cradle is just there to stop it falling over. Even that relatively small Southerly 100 is going to weigh 5 tons or more - a lot to carry on a cradle made up effectively of scaffolding poles!

 

[Greenheart]

Ah. I was thinking the work might be done while the boat was suspended up high in one of those mobile lifting devices...assuming they're adjustable.

View attachment 41802

 

[maby]

Ah. I was thinking the work might be done while the boat was suspended up high in one of those mobile lifting devices...assuming they're adjustable.

View attachment 41802

Well, yes - but I doubt that many boat yards will be prepared to tie one of those up for two or three days on a single boat! I'm not even sure if the dreaded Elf&Safety would permit it - I did ask our yard if they could hold the boat in the slings overnight so that I could do it and they told me that their insurance would not cover it. Admittedly, that was a regular crane, not one of those big boat lifts, but as I understood it, they could not allow me to work on a boat held in a crane unless there was a trained crane operator close by on duty to sort out any emergency.

 

[Seajet]

Dan,

the thing is all lift keel boats require maintenance of, therefore occasional access to, the keel plate.

Above about 25' lift keels become serious engineering propositions, which is why most larger lift keelers like say the Anderson 26 and Southerlys use a ballast stub on the hull and a light blade going through it; this is nowhere near as good as having the ballast on the end of the keel but it's the easiest solution for a cruising boat.

You're right, pivot bolts do wear, either the bolt / pin or elongating the holes in the mountings, usually both; the motion of a boat on the water will have a slight sawing effect, also some owners of swing keelers on drying moorings leave a little slack on the keel lift, so the blade goes up & down deterring drying mud or small stones etc in the casing, a problem I don't get as the ballast bulb is veed on top and fairs in with the hull.

Unlike dinghies where a centreboard which kicks up is handy ( unless being trendy like a 14 and worrying about shifting CLR ) on cruisers it's pretty irrelevant; usually I treat my vertical lift keel as up for the mooring or down for sailing, in which case I act like she was a fin keeler, not much difference in murky water between 2' or 5' if there's an abandoned cement mixer on the seabed !

At 22' it's easy to hoist the boat on and off high trestles for the winter to allow keelpate access; for larger boats it's completely feasible but requires forward planning, including when choosing to buy such a boat.

An owner of a Southerly 135 at my club worked on his keel plate by digging a pit under her, which of course will usually require a bilge pump in the pit to drain it.

 

[E39mad]

I can confirm as someone who worked for Northshore in the 1990's that 'export' boats were built no differently. Most boats were built to order although it was not uncommon with the more popular boats - Southerly 100 or 115 - to have stock bonded units waiting as was more efficient for the mould shop to mould more than one at a time.

Some did venture long distance and a 115 did a circumnavigation and whilst capable ie well built enough, the hull shape would not be my first choice to sail back across the Atlantic.

 

[Greenheart]

An owner of a Southerly 135 at my club worked on his keel plate by digging a pit under her, which of course will usually require a bilge pump in the pit to drain it.

Thanks Andy, interesting stuff. Digging a hole as opposed to mounting the boat on high...hmm, difficult to know which represented more work!

If one keeps a big centreboarder in a 'home-port', presumably one could build & store a couple of 10ft high 'walls' with U-shaped dips in the tops, as hull-props? From old railway sleepers, for erecting when the boat-lift has put the yacht in position...but I take the point, sounds much harder work than having a deep-keeler resting mainly on her fin-tip.

 

[Tranona]

Good point. However, I presume the Southerly could and perhaps do make non-RCD compliant boats for non-EEA markets, just as American manufacturers sometime produce both RCD-compliant and non-RCD compliant versions of their boats.

Technically there is very little difference between US and EU standards and it is relatively easy for a builder to comply with both with the same design. Pre 1998 the issues were more to do with certification, particularly within Europe. Getting a CE mark is the time consuming bit, submitting the calculations and systems for ensuring the boat and all its equipment is built to spec and process documented.

Too much hassle for non EU builders to bother with for the small potential market. Some builders like Benny build boats to same designs in US that are not CE marked as they sold outside the EU.

 

[Tranona]

Thanks Andy, interesting stuff. Digging a hole as opposed to mounting the boat on high...hmm, difficult to know which represented more work!

If one keeps a big centreboarder in a 'home-port', presumably one could build & store a couple of 10ft high 'walls' with U-shaped dips in the tops, as hull-props? From old railway sleepers, for erecting when the boat-lift has put the yacht in position...but I take the point, sounds much harder work than having a deep-keeler resting mainly on her fin-tip.

Not the big problem it is made out to be. My neighbour in the club has his 38' Jeanneau centreboard out at the moment. The hull is supported on wooden blocks and a 6 leg cradle with board fully down for cleaning and AF.

Southerly a bit more difficult to work on as the keel is a heavy casting. The ballast plate, keel and lifting mechanism would not look out of place in a Victorian railway workshop and needs the right equipment to handle it.

 

[Seajet]

Dan,

if one is lucky enough to have a berth at the bottom of ones' garden ( I know a retired Master Mariner A22 owner in Cornwall who has a private jetty with modern crane, I said to him ' life doesn't get much better than that ! ' ) one can do anything, but some clubs and yards might get uppity if one starts digging pits etc; this is one of the things I was thinking of when saying one needs to have foresight and plan all this when buying a big lift keeler, it's very much the same as when buying a house, ' can we get a horsebox in ? ' ( No ? Excellent ! ).

I must say apart from superyachts with silly draughts eliminating large chunks of continents unless a hydraulic lift keel is fitted, I think lifters have most appeal for coastal sailing, and funnily enough jobs like the A22 seem on the cusp of being practical to own yet useful offshore.

One of my main criteria for ' normal ' boats with lift keels is to have a manual backup, as say the Anderson 26 with light keel through ballast stub does beside the standard electric winch - not feasible with an Anderson 22 as the ballast is on the keel, so it's all manual.

When the Barracuda 45 ULDB appeared with ' lift keel requiring engine on to power the alternator to lift the keel ' one instant thought struck me, as I'm sure it's struck you before you finish reading my next word !

 

[JumbleDuck]

Technically there is very little difference between US and EU standards and it is relatively easy for a builder to comply with both with the same design

I was thinking mostly of electrics - quite apart from voltage, I understand that bonding requirements are very different. I've seen several accounts of people importing biggish boats and needing a full electrical refit to meet RCD.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Ah. I was thinking the work might be done while the boat was suspended up high in one of those mobile lifting devices...assuming they're adjustable.

View attachment 41802

First law of lifting things: thou shalt not venture under the lifted thing while it is being lifted. I was pretty amazed, and pretty horrified, recently to see a 35' boat left overnight in slings, dangling from a crane with the keel about 3' above ground level and the owners working on the hull. That's just asking for trouble - possibly terminal.

 

[Seajet]

Not the big problem it is made out to be. My neighbour in the club has his 38' Jeanneau centreboard out at the moment. The hull is supported on wooden blocks and a 6 leg cradle with board fully down for cleaning and AF.

Southerly a bit more difficult to work on as the keel is a heavy casting. The ballast plate, keel and lifting mechanism would not look out of place in a Victorian railway workshop and needs the right equipment to handle it.

As I understand it the original - one might say crude / simple - lift keel arrangement on early Southerlys designed by Dick Carter has been superceded by something else possibly more hydraulically elegant, though still not something any racing owner will gaze at longingly.

As I said, working on lift keels just requires forward planning, ranging from a couple of weeks spare time to make high Anderson 22 trestles to contacting yards and acquiring specialist cradles / permission from yards to dig drained pits with larger boats.