Snuffers on cruising chutes - a good idea?

[flaming]

Having not used a snuffer much, I don't understand this. Was the sail still loaded up? Don't you fully (or nearly fully) release the sheet so the kite might be flogging but should have no load on it?

My thoughts exactly....

I'd probably strap the sheet down hard to pin the kite behind the main then blow the tack before snuffing. Just as easy to release the halyard and pull it down the main hatch at that point though.

 

[nigelmercier]

My ex-boat-partner bought a chute for our boat. When I bought him out I gave it back to him. If we had not had a snuffer (which I considered essential, so bought it myself) he would have had a bag of rags to take home.

 

[bbg]

My thoughts exactly....

I'd probably strap the sheet down hard to pin the kite behind the main then blow the tack before snuffing. Just as easy to release the halyard and pull it down the main hatch at that point though.

Precisely, and if you are going to blow the tack line the kite comes behind the main and can be gathered into the cockpit as you drop the halyard, as per my video.

As you have mentioned before, the idea of going onto the foredeck when the **** hits the fan is exactly what you don't want to be doing. When hell breaks loose, better to stay in the safety of the cockpit.

 

[geem]

Precisely, and if you are going to blow the tack line the kite comes behind the main and can be gathered into the cockpit as you drop the halyard, as per my video.

As you have mentioned before, the idea of going onto the foredeck when the **** hits the fan is exactly what you don't want to be doing. When hell breaks loose, better to stay in the safety of the cockpit.

Great in theory but when the spinnaker is in 30knots of wind and it is 1100sq ft it's hard to hide it behind a 250sq ft mainsail. It still has a lot of resistance after you have let the tack line go

 

[Ravi]

Great in theory but when the spinnaker is in 30knots of wind and it is 1100sq ft it's hard to hide it behind a 250sq ft mainsail. It still has a lot of resistance after you have let the tack line go

Maybe I am just ignorant but I would leave the tack alone; just release the sheet, let the sail stream (depowered and blanked) in front of the boat and recover it either via snuffer or manhandling. It works for me. Am I missing something?

 

[flaming]

My ex-boat-partner bought a chute for our boat. When I bought him out I gave it back to him. If we had not had a snuffer (which I considered essential, so bought it myself) he would have had a bag of rags to take home.

Without wishing to sound in any way confrontational, I'm curious as to why you are sure he would have had a bag of rags to take home without a snuffer? Was there one incident that you think would have wrecked the chute without one, or just a general feeling that you need a snuffer to prevent accidents?

 

[bbg]

Maybe I am just ignorant but I would leave the tack alone; just release the sheet, let the sail stream (depowered and blanked) in front of the boat and recover it either via snuffer or manhandling. It works for me. Am I missing something?

Yes - that takes you onto the foredeck, an exposed position. It is also not blanketed if it is streaming from the bow.

Take a look at the video I posted on this thread and you will see how it is possible to douse a kite quickly and easily from the cockpit. That is an 800 sq ft kite, wind was 22-27 knots and I was solo, whole drop took 22 seconds. I have doused the same kite solo in 30 knots without drama. It takes some technique and practice, but, to my mind, is much easier than a snuffer.

I don't doubt people who have good experience with them, but that hasn't been my experience.

 

[Martin_J]

Both my snuffers went ashore... One sold and the other is still sitting in the garage.

With a 45ft masthead rig, sitting on the foredeck with a 45ft tall snuffer (full of snuffed sail) was not my idea of fun. Once you start to lower the halyard there appeared to be a huge amount of weight that you're having to get down whilst sitting on a moving foredeck - and being only nine stone the sail was more likely to pull me around the deck as it came down...

However many crew on board for the drop... even solo.. I'm much happier now just releasing the tack (from the cockpit) and pulling the sheet in (also from the cockpit) and getting the sail straight down the hatch. A minute later it can be packed and ready to fly again - not one person on the foredeck for the whole of the drop manoeuvre..

Easy hoisting - Again once the bag is clipped on it's all done in seconds from the safety of the cockpit. No worries about anyone on the foredeck trying to sort out thin/moving snuffer lines whilst making sure they remain on the foredeck and avoid rope burns..

I've tried the snuffers but it just seems a whole lot safer keeping the crew in the cockpit for both hoist and drop.

 

[TeamSpirit]

Great idea and helps single handed no end, launch snuffer from chute bag on deck and ease tack to snuff and decend back to bag. Can get snagged but then its old fashioned drop to deck and stuff bag . Would prefer roller system but at £1500 plus sail adjustments stick to snuffer

 

[Ravi]

Yes - that takes you onto the foredeck, an exposed position. It is also not blanketed if it is streaming from the bow.

T

Agree, it is not 100% blanketed (because it is bigger than the main) but it is totally depowered. Certainly, there is no significant force in it so I have never had a problem.

I accept that it is preferable not to have to go on the foredeck. (Memories of a slightly uncomfortable moment getting caught out with the chute up when the wind kicked in and we were bouncing around a bit.) I am a bit soft, though, so I only used the chute in lightish winds when the white sails weren't quite enough.

I have no experience of it, but the furling option does sound like the best solution for short handing.

 

[dom]

I'm also in the snufferist camp, but I'm surprised no one has yet mentioned the third alternative (if that's grammatically possible) of a furler for the chute.

That's interesting ...the systems I've seen have other fiddly lines attached to the sail in addition to the continuous furler. They work very well but need a good bit of adjusting to get right.
http://www.facnor.com/uk/products/asym_spi_furlers/

 

[doris]

I hate the things.

I can see the point, ish, but to me they have several problems.

1. They are of absolutely no use after things have gone wrong. If you've left it up a bit too long and have been caught out and have broached your snuffer will do nothing for you. If the boat won't come up you're going to have to drop the halyard the normal way. And if you're only used to a snuffer you're going to struggle with this.
2. To drop you have to go onto the foredeck and look up whilst operating lines. Not a secure position to be in. If you do, please sit down!
3. If you gybe you have to then lead the snuffer lines around the forestay. And if you're using a snuffer in conjunction with a symmetrical kite you're in a right mess because you are now also the wrong side of the pole, and more importantly the pole up. As far as I've worked out you need to store the snuffer controls at the forestay and gybe the pole inside them to stand any chance.
4. On the hoist you have to be on the foredeck at exactly the time you want to be in the cockpit trimming the thing to get it full and not wrapped round things. Fine if you've got a couple of crew, but if you're shorthanded....
5. Ditto the drop, you can't snuff the thing whilst it's full in any sort of breeze, so you have to collapse it. If you're the one doing that, you then have to sprint up to the foredeck and start snuffing before it decided to wrap itself around something.
6. Snuffing and unsnuffing are difficult with the headsail out, so you're only relying on the blanket from the main, not the jib too.

And I haven't even started on the propensity of the damn things to get twisted up and jam...

Now I appreciate that handling the kite for a 40 footer would be challenging for a cruising couple without a snuffer, but when I see 30 footers with snuffers I can't help wondering if they'd enjoy the experience a lot more if they had the confidence to fly it free.
And if you are in a 40 footer with a snuffer, remember to take it down in good time because if the effluent does hit the spinny thing your snuffer will be of no use at all....

I think the furling cruising chutes have much more potential, though I haven't actually used one yet.

Ed.
with all due respect you are wrong on this one.

When either snuffing or unsnuffing you can stand against the mast. For the last third of a snuff you sit on the foredeck prior to shoving the full condom down the fore hatch.
When you unsnuff, soon as the bucket is at the top, tie off the snuffer lines on the mast and stroll back to the cockpit, furl the jib and trim the kite.
If you have a huge broach and cannot get back on your feet, ease the sheet and as the kite flogs it is v easy to snuf.
If you have a wrap, being able to snuf the top of the sail can make it easier to undo the wrap.
If it all goes wrong and the snuffer has jammed, usually because you have cocked up on the basics somewhere, letter box drop the whole shebang, you would probably have done this anyhow without the snuffer.

I speak from a good amount of experience of single and double handing with 120 sq m asyms on a 39 footer. Two handed with competent and practiced crew then there is a case to go without. We regularly discuss it. If you have no sea room, snuffer good, if wind seriously built, snuffer good. Is a snuffer more windage aloft, yes. We still snuff the reacher, medium and heavy kites. Not the 0.6 oz. Also all the sails where designed to be snuffed.

After gybing snuffing is still just a question of pulling down.

Furlers can be good but are very expensive for a good one. You then have the furling drum banging around.
I quite agree about 30 footers. Can't see why you need any help with a little sail like that. Loose footed mains are pretty much the norm these days so letter boxing is always an option..

 

[flaming]

Ed.
with all due respect you are wrong on this one.

When either snuffing or unsnuffing you can stand against the mast. For the last third of a snuff you sit on the foredeck prior to shoving the full condom down the fore hatch.
When you unsnuff, soon as the bucket is at the top, tie off the snuffer lines on the mast and stroll back to the cockpit, furl the jib and trim the kite.
If you have a huge broach and cannot get back on your feet, ease the sheet and as the kite flogs it is v easy to snuf.
If you have a wrap, being able to snuf the top of the sail can make it easier to undo the wrap.
If it all goes wrong and the snuffer has jammed, usually because you have cocked up on the basics somewhere, letter box drop the whole shebang, you would probably have done this anyhow without the snuffer.

I speak from a good amount of experience of single and double handing with 120 sq m asyms on a 39 footer. Two handed with competent and practiced crew then there is a case to go without. We regularly discuss it. If you have no sea room, snuffer good, if wind seriously built, snuffer good. Is a snuffer more windage aloft, yes. We still snuff the reacher, medium and heavy kites. Not the 0.6 oz. Also all the sails where designed to be snuffed.

After gybing snuffing is still just a question of pulling down.

Furlers can be good but are very expensive for a good one. You then have the furling drum banging around.
I quite agree about 30 footers. Can't see why you need any help with a little sail like that. Loose footed mains are pretty much the norm these days so letter boxing is always an option..

We may have to agree to disagree... But my thoughts on the above.

I've sailed with snuffers a lot, and I've never been able to stand against the mast, the angle just ends up wrong and the damn thing won't move, - especially unsnuffing when the sail just seems to bunch up. I find that you frequently have to have a hold of the foot of the sail to get the snuffer to start.

If you're on your side with a flogging kite the very last place I want to be is the foredeck with snuffer lines in hand. Especially as with an inexperienced crewmate on the helm the next thing that's likely to happen once the boat pops up is it rolling straight into a crash gybe.

I have to admit to never having had a wrap with a snuffer, but that does sound like a good tip.

Once you've given up on the snuffer and dumped the thing down the hatch (hopefully without wrapping the snuffer lines around everything) how do you get it back into the snuffer below decks before the next hoist? Or are you committed to a "normal" hoist? I do recall having to stretch the sail out through 4 rooms of the house to load it into the snuffer many moons ago!

 

[Simondjuk]

I'm not sure what there is to lose by having one. If you need to lose the kite and it won't snuff, you just drop it conventionally.

For us, two handed on a 40 footer, having a snuffer means we're far more likely to use the kite for brief periods as it removes the headache of clearing up hundreds of square feet of cloth from the saloon, which simply wouldn't be worth doing to fly it for half an hour when cruising.

It also has the benefit that if conditions lighten to the point of the chute collapsing, we can snuff, make the lines off to a deck cleat, which holds the sausage clear of everything, motor for a while if necessary, then unsnuff the moment the breeze fills in again. A little lazy perhaps, but if it means more time spent sailing than motoring, I'm all for it.

As for repackaging into the snuffer, I've done this by hoisting from the forehatch whilst holding the collar down at deck level. It just packs itself as it goes up. Only done it the once before we flew the chute for the first time as I'd pulled the whole lot out in the saloon so that I could check for twists and tangles. It's never had to come down without the snuffer.

 

[Martin_J]

'Stand against the mast' when you could be 'sitting in the cockpit'.. It's a no brainer for me... Cockpit every time.

 

[Martin_J]

Mainsail1 - You asked the original question and as you can see there are two rather opposing answers.

What size chute/snuffer would you be looking at. I would be happy to pass on the snuffer that I have sitting in the garage if the size is suitable. You could then make a donation based on how you find it for both usefulness and/or ease of use.

 

[mainsail1]

Thank you all for so much advice, based on your first hand experience. I now have a lot to think about, but my impression is that if I move the cockpit onto the foredeck everyone would be happy - so long as I have plenty of toilet paper in a ready use locker- oh! and a fan.
Thank you Martin-J for the kind offer of a snuffer. My first task has to be to get quotes for moving the cockpit. After moving that, I don't think I will have any money left for the new sail.

 

[Ravi]

Thank you all for so much advice, based on your first hand experience. I now have a lot to think about, but my impression is that if I move the cockpit onto the foredeck everyone would be happy

 

[Martin_J]

 

[doris]

'Stand against the mast' when you could be 'sitting in the cockpit'.. It's a no brainer for me... Cockpit every time.

If one is having some fun with asyms or cruising chutes not sure if 'sitting' in the cockpit is best way of participating. Maybe that's what no brains means!

Flaming. We always stand with our back against the mast when unsnuffing. Then it takes two secs to pop the up haul on a cleat on the mast and scamper back to the jib furler.

When I first planned to sail a Sigma 41 mast head version short handed I played with a snuffer, sometimes solo sometimes two handed, but always at least four up on the boat. The others were always experienced sailors used to kites. We played with different ways of doing things and practised. When things went pear shaped there were hands to help. We worked out how to use a snuffer reliably. No one in their right mind uses spinnakers without learning all the foibles and terrors of the sail first. A snuffer is just a bit of kit that, used correctly, helps short handed sailors.

The most basic rule we learnt was to have an internal tube for the uphaul/downhaul, as part of the initial construction. Not rings or loops but an integral top to bottom tube. Then the best way to load the sail is to lay in on a pontoon and pull the snuffer down absolutely straight. Thereafter if will not twist. Have been doing this since 97 and, touching wood, nil probs. the snuffer has deffo got me out of the cack several times. Eg. Massive wrap in Celtic Sea, another time a sheet let go, just snuffed reconnected and off we went again.

If I had to snuff down below, it is doable sort of but then would have a v light wind hoist to check and pull straight. Only time I had to do this is it was pi**ing with rain so couldn't do as suggested earlier with the forehatch.

Also have been caught out and been almost flat. Couldn't dump the main obviously, boom in water, blowing the sheet and half snuffing then powering up was effective. Not sure if one should be sailing in these conditions with an inexperienced helm and a kite. Helm might not be inexperienced for long!