Snuffers on cruising chutes - a good idea?

[choppy]

Also had a snuffer - sold it on ebay which was the best place for it. Some of these "taming devices" can be false assurance - KISS is best - sail goes up - sail comes down with as little peripheral kit as possible. Its a confidence thing as well - best learn to do it right 1st off.

 

[flaming]

Two of flaming's points (I was waiting for his response - not all of us are experienced racers but diehard cruisers usually two up).

Firstly - you gybe the chute are the downhaul is on the wrong side. How many seconds does that take to remedy?

When there is wind in the sail I just release the tack which has a snapshackle that can be undone under load - the chute is then easily tamed.

Snuffer threads are like catnip to me!

The point about the lines being the wrong side is that when you are snuffing in a nice relaxed way it's not a big deal, but when it's all going wrong fast the last place you want to be is on the bow trying to pass the snuffer lines round the forestay and making sure they aren't getting tangled in the top swivel of the Genoa. And that's when you'll have forgotten to do it after the gybe.

I've actually done a lot of cruising, normally either just with my Dad, or with my mum and sister on board. (Total non sailors). With the exception of the cruising chute on the Griffon Dad has always had snuffers, and I've always been keen on hoisting coloured sails whenever possible so I've got probably 15+ years of experience of sailing with snuffers - with cruising chutes and symmetrical kites. Probably averaging 3 weeks cruising per year.

I also have quite a lot of experience of racing fully crewed, and racing 2 handed. So I've thrown a kite up 2 handed in nearly 30 knots of breeze, and dropped it again. Which was probably the most tiring manoeuvre I've ever done on a sailing boat, but we did it safely and I've definitely been able to take that experience and apply it to handing kites when cruising.

For me the crossover of no snuffer to snuffer for cruising is probably about 40 foot. Much over that and the amount of cloth starts to become too big for one person to gather in.
But even over this size it's not an impossibility, I've flown a kite up the Orwell in a 50 footer with 3 on board, and the thing about the amount of kite flying I do is that we're always finding new and amusing ways of getting it wrong, so pretty much whatever happens cruising I've seen it before and know how to sort it out.

It worries me every time someone appears on here having just bought a largish boat and says "I've found a cruising chute in the locker, how do I use it?" And being told "it's got a snuffer, it's easy!" Yes... Until it goes wrong...

 

[jbweston]

Thank you so much for all the answers so far. Clearly there are strong views on both sides. In the end I am going to add up those for a snuffer and those against and take the majority view. Trouble is I now wonder if a cruising chute is the answer to my desire for ease of handling shorthanded, including getting it down when the wind perks up?

I find it so. 38 foot boat. Tack on a multi-part downhaul from the cockpit - if I slacken that off the whole lot comes inboard so it snuffs down just by the mast.

I'm not saying people should have a snuffer if they don't want one, just that mine works fine singleheanded.

Mine is Sanders of Lymington.

 

[mattonthesea]

I'm with Daydream and Flaming on this one. Cruising solo I learnt to drop both cruising chute and spinnaker easily as per bbj's routine except that:

to drop the halyard in controlled fashion I borrowed someone else's idea from here to wrap it once around the winch and then trail it in the sea. May need experiment to get the perfect friction.

All my controls bar the sheet (and guy) were up at the mast. With Aries steering I was quite happy to be up at the mast and just dropped it into the forepeak (wasn't that the function of them a while back?)

Slight pain packing but basically tie head to the companion way with wool. Follow luff to tie to one side and leach to other. The tie wool around approx one metre down from head. Repeat to end breaking clew and tack ties and stuff in the bag. A disposable snuffer!

I should add that the snuffer that came with the boat ripped my kite (a viscous and unprovoked attack!) in Biscay so I'm biased

 

[Iain C]

Okay I'm going to try and give a balanced view. Balanced because I carry both a conventional symmetrical kite (no snuffer) and a cruising chute in a snuffer. I'm a cruiser not a racer, but I used to race 18' skiffs which have a great big asymm and just a bag at the mast foot.

I actually really like my snuffer and I do think it's easier for short handing. I agree that it can easily end up in a foul up if you are not careful how you rig it, however they are usually undramatic compared to dropping the kite in the water or similar. I also think they may be better on smaller boats...I don't fancy dropping my kite through the forehatch and onto my bed as bits of it are bound to be wet...my stack pack rules out a letterbox drop, and having a sprayhood and a mainsheet traveller on the bridge deck makes dropping down the main hatch a bit tricky too.

Contrary to what has been said, I think the snuffer can get you out of trouble if it's all got a bit windy. I have been caught in a "bugger, we should have got this down about 10 mins ago" situation a few times, however without touching anything else a good snuff gets rid of a third of the area, and obviously makes what is left very inefficient, hence loosing a load of power. Get someone in the cockpit to sort the sheet and the tack line out and you've got the rest done a few seconds later.

So yes, on a short handed cruising boat I do think they make a lot of sense...in fact I have a feeling that I've not actually used my symmetric kite since getting the chute and the snuffer. Before we got it, SWMBO really, really didn't like putting the kite up in anything more than a drifter, however with the asymm and snuffer we pretty much put it up if we are sailing downwind and we'll carry it OK.

 

[TQA]

I single hand a fair bit and like a snuffer. Yes it can go wrong esp if it gets twisted in the snuffer but I have always manged to sort it out.

The boats were a 38 ft ketch and currently I have a 44 ft cutter both had poles which I would use.

 

[TQA]

I single hand a fair bit and like a snuffer. Yes it can go wrong esp if it gets twisted in the snuffer but I have always manged to sort it out.

The boats were a 38 ft ketch and currently I have a 44 ft cutter both had poles which I would use.

 

[Seatrout]

Likewise as a regular solo sailor, I've had great fun with the cruising chute... wouldn't be without the snuffer, but remember to be on the same gybe you were on when you deployed it when you snuff it or life can become unnecessarily difficult.

 

[neil1967]

+1 for the snuffer. We normally sail 2 up on our 40ft yacht, and although we have had the occasional problem getting it up (sail/lines twisted in the sock), we have never had an issue getting it down. I accept that if you are short handed and you have a problem, then you do have a problem, but that is the same for a non-snuffer chute. I do have experience of racing and sailing on 55ft+ yachts with full crews and no snuffer - with plenty of hands it's easier, and yet you can still mess it up.

Neil

 

[geem]

I hate the things.

I can see the point, ish, but to me they have several problems.

1. They are of absolutely no use after things have gone wrong. If you've left it up a bit too long and have been caught out and have broached your snuffer will do nothing for you. If the boat won't come up you're going to have to drop the halyard the normal way. And if you're only used to a snuffer you're going to struggle with this.
2. To drop you have to go onto the foredeck and look up whilst operating lines. Not a secure position to be in. If you do, please sit down!
3. If you gybe you have to then lead the snuffer lines around the forestay. And if you're using a snuffer in conjunction with a symmetrical kite you're in a right mess because you are now also the wrong side of the pole, and more importantly the pole up. As far as I've worked out you need to store the snuffer controls at the forestay and gybe the pole inside them to stand any chance.
4. On the hoist you have to be on the foredeck at exactly the time you want to be in the cockpit trimming the thing to get it full and not wrapped round things. Fine if you've got a couple of crew, but if you're shorthanded....
5. Ditto the drop, you can't snuff the thing whilst it's full in any sort of breeze, so you have to collapse it. If you're the one doing that, you then have to sprint up to the foredeck and start snuffing before it decided to wrap itself around something.
6. Snuffing and unsnuffing are difficult with the headsail out, so you're only relying on the blanket from the main, not the jib too.

And I haven't even started on the propensity of the damn things to get twisted up and jam...

Now I appreciate that handling the kite for a 40 footer would be challenging for a cruising couple without a snuffer, but when I see 30 footers with snuffers I can't help wondering if they'd enjoy the experience a lot more if they had the confidence to fly it free.
And if you are in a 40 footer with a snuffer, remember to take it down in good time because if the effluent does hit the spinny thing your snuffer will be of no use at all....

I think the furling cruising chutes have much more potential, though I haven't actually used one yet.

I think you have this wrong. The snuffer is essential on a 40+ ft boat. When the wind suddenly picks up you really need a snuffer. They are not useless here but essential. If the snuffer won't come down in a blow we just stick the snuffer line on a winch on the mast or stick it on the windlass rope drum. Once you get it moving a little it will come down. I can't imagine handling a 1700 ft asymmetric with just the wife and I without one!

 

[flaming]

I think you have this wrong. The snuffer is essential on a 40+ ft boat. When the wind suddenly picks up you really need a snuffer. They are not useless here but essential. If the snuffer won't come down in a blow we just stick the snuffer line on a winch on the mast or stick it on the windlass rope drum. Once you get it moving a little it will come down. I can't imagine handling a 1700 ft asymmetric with just the wife and I without one!

You must have missed the bit where I said that handling a kite on a 40+ footer would be challenging without a snuffer....

But my main point is that for every perceived benefit that a snuffer gives you there is a technique to get that effect without a snuffer. With the added benefit that no snuffer means no tangled snuffer lines, and techniques that will always work and aren't relying on that, somewhat fallible, bit of kit.

 

[geem]

You must have missed the bit where I said that handling a kite on a 40+ footer would be challenging without a snuffer....

But my main point is that for every perceived benefit that a snuffer gives you there is a technique to get that effect without a snuffer. With the added benefit that no snuffer means no tangled snuffer lines, and techniques that will always work and aren't relying on that, somewhat fallible, bit of kit.

(And if you are in a 40 footer with a snuffer, remember to take it down in good time because if the effluent does hit the spinny thing your snuffer will be of no use at all....)

Its that bit I am refering to above. how many times has the wife says `i think we should drop the spinnaker now and I have said `it will be ok for a bit longer` only to be proved wrong everytime! When we really needed to get it down the snuffer was essential. I have flown big spinnakers without a snuffer lightly crewed and I wouldnt do it again. I accept that there is a lot of rope involved and more than once we have hoisted it to find we are the wrong side of something but taking that all into account I wouldnt be without it.
Also it is wirth mentioing that the quality of snuffers varies. We had problems with the snuffer on our last boat once it aged a little. The fabric became sticky and we use to get a lot of erosion of the cloth. We washed it to remove the salt and it was better. The new snuffer on the new boat is far better and slides effortlessly

 

[flaming]

(And if you are in a 40 footer with a snuffer, remember to take it down in good time because if the effluent does hit the spinny thing your snuffer will be of no use at all....)

Its that bit I am refering to above. how many times has the wife says `i think we should drop the spinnaker now and I have said `it will be ok for a bit longer` only to be proved wrong everytime! When we really needed to get it down the snuffer was essential. I have flown big spinnakers without a snuffer lightly crewed and I wouldnt do it again. I accept that there is a lot of rope involved and more than once we have hoisted it to find we are the wrong side of something but taking that all into account I wouldnt be without it.
Also it is wirth mentioing that the quality of snuffers varies. We had problems with the snuffer on our last boat once it aged a little. The fabric became sticky and we use to get a lot of erosion of the cloth. We washed it to remove the salt and it was better. The new snuffer on the new boat is far better and slides effortlessly

We obviously have a different quality of excrement!

I'm not talking about when it's just gotten a bit windy but the boat is still under control. I'm talking about when you've lost control, you've broached (or worse Chinese Gybed) and the kite is busy wrapping itself around the nearest part of your standing rigging.
A rare event for a cruising boat I accept, but it happens.

 

[Twister_Ken]

I'm also in the snufferist camp, but I'm surprised no one has yet mentioned the third alternative (if that's grammatically possible) of a furler for the chute.

 

[doug748]

I had snuffers for my cruising chute and spinnaker, I will say one thing for them, they fetched a good price in the For Sale section.

 

[awol]

Likewise as a regular solo sailor, I've had great fun with the cruising chute... wouldn't be without the snuffer, but remember to be on the same gybe you were on when you deployed it when you snuff it or life can become unnecessarily difficult.

Hmmm - I don't know what you do with it to have fun but it cannae be flying the thing.

 

[npf1]

I've a huge masthead gennaker/cruising chute (53' ketch) that's good for 15knot apparent. Snuffer works fine except when I've held on to the sail for as long as I can, so true wind now 22/25 - at that point using the snuffer is not something I want to experience again without a football team on board.

Now swapped to a top down furler, which so far has been fantastic (after a few tweaks and a bit of practice). Although not yet had the opportunity to try furling in 22/25 knot of true wind.

Still undecided on whether or not to keep the snuffer for the spinnaker or flog it.

 

[flaming]

I'm also in the snufferist camp, but I'm surprised no one has yet mentioned the third alternative (if that's grammatically possible) of a furler for the chute.

Do you have me on ignore? I mentioned them back on page 1!

Haven't used one yet though, but to me they seem to solve many of the problems that snuffers have.

 

[geem]

We obviously have a different quality of excrement!

I'm not talking about when it's just gotten a bit windy but the boat is still under control. I'm talking about when you've lost control, you've broached (or worse Chinese Gybed) and the kite is busy wrapping itself around the nearest part of your standing rigging.
A rare event for a cruising boat I accept, but it happens.

Got hit once coming around a headland off Portugal, in a cat. Boat speed went up from 8 knots to 15 and we saw 30 knots solid for a few minutes. Snuffer wouldn't come down with two people hanging off it, hence use of windlass to get it started.
I guess am not into broaching with kite up. We cruise two handed so would likely not be carrying a spinnaker in those conditions. If we are in that kind of wind we would likely be at hull speed already with genoa poled and main out.
If we were racing with a big crew it might be completely different.

 

[bbg]

Got hit once coming around a headland off Portugal, in a cat. Boat speed went up from 8 knots to 15 and we saw 30 knots solid for a few minutes. Snuffer wouldn't come down with two people hanging off it, hence use of windlass to get it started.

Having not used a snuffer much, I don't understand this. Was the sail still loaded up? Don't you fully (or nearly fully) release the sheet so the kite might be flogging but should have no load on it?