Small boat owners.

[Colin24]

Advice needed from those readers with small boats please.
I am looking around for my first small boat. Think back if you can to how exited you were when you where doing this. I’m pouncing on any scraps of information like a man possessed. Scouring the net for owners clubs and associations that may have info on any of the boats that are on my short list. Scrutinizing the (very)small ads in the mags until my eyes bleed.

I’m looking at Old, small (24’max) Cheap bilge keelers, and even with my very limited funds there is still quite a choice available. Now I’m not going to ask (again) which one is best. No doubt everyone have their own Ideas on that.

It’ll probably help to know, I’m more interested in strength and safety than speed and performance and I can’t afford a modern (roomier) boat.

My question is more general and is about ‘Head room’ I need some objective views.
You see, there are just a few boats –not many granted, within my range and criteria that can just scrape standing head room. The rest require varying degrees of crouching and while I have no doubt that I would prefer standing head room, I’m trying to decide if it is a big enough deal to warrant ruling out all those boats that don’t have it. In many cases the ONLY down side of several the boats I’d be crossing off my list is their lack of head room.

So I’m asking how much of a nuisance is it –in reality?
I can’t help thinking that when in the cabin 95 % of the time would be spent sitting or laying down anyway, or is this a common and very big mistake?

Any advise gratefully received.

Cheers

Colin


<hr width=100% size=1>No boat.

 

[bendyone]

Look at a Macwester Rowan 22 or maybe a Westerley Cirrus

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[Joe_Cole]

I wouldn't worry too much about headroom or you'll be crossing some good little boats off your list. Some boats with the required headroom are as ugly as sin (IMHO) and, arguably, aren't particularly good in the water.

Joe

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[oldharry]

First question - how fit are you? If you have any sort of back trouble, lack of headroom can be - literally - a pain. Otherwise, in small boats its a luxury with the pay off that standing headroom in anything less than 22 feet generally means (but not always) the sailing performance of the average caravan. Blowing along off the wind well enough, but pushing to windward.... forget it!

By the time you get to the 22 - 24 foot range, you can get reasonable windward peformance with standing headroom from some designs - but there are still many that will not. You need to know from owners and reviews before you even start looking at the brokers lists.

The one thing I always found with low headroom is to check that you can actually sit comfortably without crouching below a low deckhead - sheer misery.

Clever arrangemnts of mainhatch and pramhood can actually provide a small area of standing headroom for such functions as pulling up trousers (not easy with heavy weather gear for example!), and as you rightly say most of the time belwo is spent sitting or lying down anyway.

Standing headroom at my age is 'nice' but as others have said, making that a primary criteria will knock out most of the best sailing boats in the range/price.

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[Mirelle]

If you want to stand up, go on deck

was what E.F. Knight said about it, back in the 1880's.

I would go even further than Joe and I would positively rule OUT any boat on your size range that DOES have standing headroom. In this size, standing headroom cannot be achieved without distorting the hull, and because many people do not think carefully about what this means in terms of performance, a boat with standing headroom will cost more, secondhand, yet sail worse.

So you will pay more money for a worse boat!

You hardly ever stand up, below decks in a small boat, except to put your trousers on, and it is not beyond the wit of man (or woman) to find ways of doing this sitting down! For the rest of the time, you are sitting, lounging, sprawling or lying. I would seriously check out the "sitting and lounging around comfort" of boats that you look at, but I honestly would avoid boats with standing headroom.

One other thought - reasonable performance is worth having, in this size. A little boat needs absolutely all the performance to windward that she can get, otherwise sailing soon ceases to be a pleasure. The number of occasions when you set out to go somewhere, and have to turn back, become numerous and you will find yourself getting fed up with the boat as she pitches in the same hole and goes sideways. Similarly, in confined spaces, you will be forever fiddling withg the outboard. On the other hand, tacking up a tight river, and avoiding using the engine, is a real pleasure. For this reason, I would look at lifting keelers as well as twin keelers, if you have a drying mooring.

I have a bigger boat now but I had 15 years of very little ones.

Good luck.

<hr width=100% size=1>Que scais-je?

 

[FullCircle]

Re: If you want to stand up, go on deck

I have a little 22 footer, having swapped down again.
Couple of things to remember -
I joined the local Yacht Club, which was an Essex creek crawling society called Great Wakering YC. Almost exclusively these guys lived in shallow waters and drying moorings. Thus they had lots of experience of small boating. Like a mad demented thing (sounds like you are building up to it) I travelled nearly 10000 miles looking at boats of various hues and shapes. My sage old Commodore earholed me in the bar with the following advice:- "Boat you want ain't 15 mile from 'ere lad." True. How true. The boat suitable for your cruising area is likely still in your area somewhere.
Because I was in a hurry for the coming season (1988), I bought a cheap tatty Corribee Bilge Keel. 2 grand, tons of cramped fun (Me,SWMBO and 3 kids for 2 weeks hols!)and I had it a season by which time I had found a lift keel Evolution 25. Sold the Corribee for - 2 grand. Anyone seen Padiwak lately?
I went even dafter after that on bigger and bigger.
This year I happened on a Limbo 6.6 Racer with lift keel (3 grand). Bugger all interior, no headroom. Again great fun, very fast, but I was made a good offer to sell.
Now I have a 1979 Jouet 680 found on the River Deben(mostly found cheap in France though). Very well built, strange cockpit layout, 3/4 headroom, good accomodation layout 4 berth, but good performance and looks. Very happy thank you, and will go most places I want. (French/Belgian/Dutch cost 2004) Cost? a smidge over 3 grand.

Would love to help you out more, as I have it in my blood to do this cheaply these days(including moorings, insurance, replacement bits, refurbishing etc). Send me a PM if you need more info.

PS, 2003 was the first season I made a profit on sailing including ALL costs, including fuel for the car to go sailing!!

What a tight git I am

Jim



<hr width=100% size=1>Second Chance - First Love. I still need a 7m Luff Spinnaker & Pole for 22 footer!! Help!

 

[VirgoVoyager]

Having just recently been through this process, my experience is that going for standing headroom rules out a lot of boats, and rules in some that serious yotties find somewhat compromised. However, with both my wife and myself approaching the magic six-oh, we decided that this was a crucial factor, though not the only thing we took into account!. Eventually boiled it down to a Seamaster 23 which fitted almost all of our needs and could be found at the right price. While waiting for an owner to decide whether he was really selling or not, we chanced on a Virgo Voyager which was conveniently local. It also turned out to fit the bill and we bought it. Very much a cruiser, but the guy we bought it from had taken it all over the West Coast of Scotland, including to the Outer Hebrides and it had clearly coped well with difficult conditions. It is roomy and comfortable for its size, but you wouldn't necessarlily want to race in it!

My advice is have a good look round, have a clear idea what you are looking for and remember that other people will give you advice based on what they want from a yacht, not necessarily what you want!

Good hunting. PM me if you want more details.

Stuart

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[ashanta]

Someone asked this question earlier this year. I said I believed the Seamaster 23 was the ideal small boat. As well as being designed by the person who designed the Centaur, they are actually very similar to look at.
There is plenty of head room, two cabins, decent galley. There are options for keels. As I sail on the Exe I opted for the shoal draft with lifting keel but you can get bilge and fin versions.
You will pay according to condition but one thing is for sure. They built them heavy in Dunmow and mine did not have a trace of osmosis. When my kids were little it took me all over the channel. Take a look at one and I'm sure you'll agree.
Good luck!
Peter.

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[Avocet]

We had an an Evolution 22 and after a week cruising the Caledonian canal in somewhat indifferent weather, I vowed to get a boat I could stand up in!

Like you, we weren't over-burdened with funds so I looked for something that needed a lot of work. When I found the boat we finally fell desperately in love with, I forgot to check there was enough room for me to lie down! (could stand up though!) Anyway, it wasn't the end of the world because the interior needed gutting in any case but I suppose what I'm saying (apart from not letting one particular feature blind you to any other virtues -or faults a craft might have), is; would you consider getting a "fixer-upper"?

Other than that, I agree with some of the other posters. It's quite hard to get a quart out of a pint pot. Some smaller boats that can live on a trailer have no headroom partly because they don't draw much (easy to launch) and partly because they don't have much of a coachroof (less windage). If you get a small boat you can stand up in, at least one of those features might be compromised. Looking back (and this is a purely personal opinion) if I was going to have a small boat, I'd want a trailer sailer so I could save berthing costs, choose my cruising ground and work on it at home. I'd treat it as a dinghy with a covered cabin to lie down in. If (as has been the case) I want standing headroom and decent sailing performance, I'd go for a bigger, grottier boat and make sure the extra size was enough to compensate me for the disadvantages of not being able to live on a trialer.

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[Greylaguk]

SWMBO and I had a Jaguar 22, which had a lifting coach roof as our first yacht and kept it for 14 years. We had all the benefits of a wee yacht when sailing but we could lift the coach roof up on a pair of swinging arms and secure a canvas skirt with plastic windows round the sides when we were at anchor or alongside. I have not seen any like it since, but there may be a few around – it’s worth a search We still miss it, especially when we pay our extortionate marina fees each year for our current yacht.

Good luck in your quest.


<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[Guest]

UGH !!!! ??????

There are many boats out there in 23 - 26 ft range that you can stand up in unless you are more than 6ft - and they are NOT compromised.

Really this is not useful to a guy who is obviously looking for something to be reasonably comfortable and is not interested YET in racing tound the cans ......

There are:
Westerly Warwicks
Mirage's
Snapdragon 26's
Sunriders
Seariders
Seamasters
etc. that have standing headrom and do not look ungainly or have distorted hulls.

Ask a EuroYottie about a boat and he says it must be more than 30ft to be any good, ask a traditionalist and he says completely different ......

If the original poster wants to PM me - I am more than willing to help and pass any info that I may have at hand ... having owned / surveyed all sorts of configs !! Old and NEW !!


<hr width=100% size=1>Nigel ...
Bilge Keelers get up further ! I came - cos they said was FREE Guinness !
/forums/images/icons/cool.gif

 

[Mirelle]

Re: UGH !!!! ??????

Colin's original post said:

"I’m looking at Old, small (24’max) Cheap bilge keelers."

Colin did not define "cheap", but some of the boats in your list are not what I would call "cheap" and some are over 24ft, which was Colin's maximum, i.e. 20 -22ft was in consideration.

As someone who spent 12 very happy years in a traditional wooden "2 1/2 tonner" (18' x 6'6" x 3'6") I ain't exactly a "Euro-yottie" (although I did manage to get across to Holland and back in her!)

And I do think, honestly, that some old, small, cheap bilge keelers have levels of performance that are absolutely dire.

Some boats of the "old small cheap" variety are often seen sailing, and others are more often seen on a mooring or with the outboard running.

Fortunately for someone looking at buying one, the recent series of secondhand summaries in YM have been reasonably frank in this respect, and only a moderate degree of reading between the lines is needed! It is worth while to avoid these boats. I'm not suggesting racing, but there are plenty of old small cheap bilge keelers that are just a misery to their owners (no, of course I am not going to offend said owners by naming them!) and others that have adequate performance. Better go for one of the latter.
<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by Mirelle on 28/12/2003 18:05 (server time).</FONT></P>

 

[bigmart]

I know you said that you didn't want any ideas for which boat but I'm going to throw in my two penn'th anyhow.

I think that standing headroom is a major advantage & a definite plus for a cruising yacht. My first boat was a 24 Ft Eventide. Most of these are home built so they vary in design. I bought mine 10 years ago, it had standing headroom, a decent sized inboard enging & vas well equipped with Decca, Autopilot, VHF, Lifejackets & all the gear ready to go sailing. Not the best sailing performance but with a good engine (plenty of electrical power for those added little luxuries) it didn't really matter that much. Trips to Cherbourg & the Channel Islands were easily within the capabilities of this excellent little boat.

How much did it cost. Oh the price of this craft was an extortionate £2800.

I was really sorry when the fresh water finally delaminated the plywood decks. If I had more time I could have repaired her but a slightly bigger boat in GRP beckoned. I still miss her though!

Martin

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[Gunfleet]

Re: UGH !!!! ??????

Nigel'#s right. My Nicholson 26 has 6ft1" headroom. Mind you it does draw five feet! My previous Snapdragon 24 was 5'10" headroom. Okay, the snappy's not all that handsome but the C&N is. I think you'd find a lot of boats with headroom and good sea-keeping in that size range. The C&N is definitely a capable offshore boat. Keep looking!

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[steve6367]

We have a Newbridge Virgo Voyager 23'. Admittedly the Fin keel version, but do know other with the bilge and performance does not seem to suffer too much. Spent the summer cruising around the channel islands (with friends in a Atlanta 29) and when away for several weeks being able to stand inside is a big plus. I would also make sure you get a decent inboard diesel in a boat this size, unless you like waiting around a lot. You can defiantly get a long way and have a lot of fun in a small boat, without spending too much money.

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[seaesta2]

I recommend a close look at the small D. A. Raynor designed Westerly bilge keelers such as the 22 and 25. Some have diesel inboards and can be picked up very reasonably. I have had a 25 for 20 years and have sailed her from S.E Eire to Inverness and most points between -including coast to coast on the Leeds - Liverpool canal. Headroom is only 5-9" but that has never been a problem to me - when I am on a long sailing trip I prefer to lay down whenever i'm not in the cockpit!! If SWMBO gets fed up of being storm bound or excessively wet then we abandon ship and book into a B&B.

It can be a real advantage having a strong but cheaper boat which you can be relatively relaxed about leaving for a week or two when on a trip rather than a new shiny vessel that you dare not scratch or stain.

Everything is a compromise. I would compromise on headroom without hesitation

One of the best trusims is "the amount of fun you have on a boat is inversely proportional to its size"

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[graham]

I have sailed in lots of small boats over the last 30 odd years having a boat you CAN stand up in makes an enormous difference in comfort.

One boat that doesnt cost the earth that has about 5foot 11 headroom and can be found with bilge keels is the Hurley 24.They sail well and are strongly built .The Hurley 22 is also a good boat but only has sitting headroom.

If you are inexperienced stick too looking at well known fiberglass boats as a first boat. They will be easier to maintain and also easier to sell again if you decide on a bigger and better boat later.

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[l'escargot]

I doubt if there is any "Old, small (24’max) Cheap bilge keeler" that is going to have more than adequate performance by modern standards. Go for one with headroom, what you gain in performance in a lower boat in that category is academic to the average sailor, so go for a bit of comfort. A higher boat is also drier, you have a coachroof to keep the water out of the cockpit.

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[Colin24]

Thanks very much

Just so as you know where I’m coming from I’ll tell you about my boating experience so far and what I hope to be able to do with my boat when I get it.

First taste of sailing was on one of those corporate sailing weekends and involved 10 matched Westerly fulmars, a long weekend racing round the cans in the Solent and dinner in a posh yacht club. The crews where all novices with each boat having an experienced skipper. Although I was bewildered by the racing (I could not pick out the buoys until we where on top of them, had no idea which way we’d be heading next or how we were doing in the race) The part about being afloat and using the wind and the self sufficiency of going where one wanted, really grabbed me.

I then had a couple of sails, again in the Solent aboard a Foxhound which belonged to a guy I’d met on the corporate thing. Great fun, he was into any sort of racing and I was invited to crew for him in the round the island race that year.
Much to my embarrassment I was sick as a dog, there were three of us aboard for the race and I was as much use as a corpse and was wishing I was one. I was never invited to join them again.

Not to be put off, I managed to talk SWMBO into going on a sailing type holiday and we went to one of those Sunsail Clubs in Greece ( you stay on shore and are provided with lots of different craft to sail about in. This turned out to be far more fun than it sounds ( I’d do it again, and I’m pretty picky when it comes to holidays)
And this gave me the confidence to charter a Beneteau first 26 the following year.

It was a sort of hybrid between bareboat and flotilla. The sailing are was the Sporadies chain if islands in Greece again. I had this notion that a flotilla would involve a sort of paper chain of boats following each other round like a row of ducks and being herded from one spot to the other and this idea appalled me. But the was an option in the brochure for ‘independent’ sailing which means you spend the first and last night with the flotilla and do your own thing in the intervening two weeks, so we went for that. SWIMBO and Sunsail insisted that I do some form of sailing course prior to letting me loose and this involved a three day –pre flotilla introduction to sailing thing once again in the Solent.

I’ll never forget standing on the dock, having arrived to pick in our boats in Greece, looking at the row of Beneteaus moored nose to along the quay and thinking ‘my god, Colin what have you done, I was filled with terror by the prospect that tomorrow morning I’d be expected to sail from the quay and for the next two weeks take the boat into more than a dozen ports I’d never seen and get it back here again without mishap. What the hell was I thinking about, I’d never been out in a boat on my own !!
The main thing was not to let my (non sailing) wife see any sign of apprehension on my part, after all it’d taken a far bit of persuasion from me to convince her we could do it. “Piece of cake” and “no problem at all” I’d lied.
There was never a more attentive skipper at the skippers meeting the following morning as the Sunsail people briefed us on the boats controls and sailing area.

As it turned out, this was the best holiday I’d ever had –I thought I’d died and gone to heaven. Just can’t begin to tell you how good it felt. Lets face it, That part of the Med at that time of year would have bored the life out of an experienced sailor but for me as a novice, no tides, deep all the way to the edge, light predictable winds, warm sunny weather, in charge of my own (hired) vessel for the first time, the med was a perfect introduction.

Anyway, after that things ground to a halt on the sailing front. Living in landlocked Bedford and not having and sailing contacts, Jobs, time and family commitments along with the horrible expense of sailing meant other things where closer to the top of my to do list.

That is until recently.

Some friends of ours purchased a lovely 39/40 foot Oyster and keep it on the river Orwell at Foxes marina and several times this summer past, we have been out for a sail with them. Not only has this re-ignited my interest in sailing but has also made me realize that living in Bedford does not rule out on logistical grounds the possibility of sailing regularly. From my house we can be at the head of the beautiful river Orwell in just over two hours and it’s not a bad run.
Then I spotted the front cover of a recent ‘Practical Boat Owner’ featuring a Kingfisher 22, some examples of which could be had for as little as 2,000 GBP
I was amazed, I’d no idea that a capable little boat such as that could be had for anything like that sort of money. I’ve spent a lot of time since finding out that with a budget of around 4,000 (which is what I envisage spending) there are all sorts of options and choices to consider, hence my question to the forum.

Sorry to drivel on so long but the more you know about what I’m after and what I know and don’t know the better.

So here’s what I what and the reasons I’m thinking I want them.
1. Firstly I’m constrained by price, I told you my budget so I’ll not dwell on that.
2. I’d prefer the stiffness and windward capabilities of a fin keeler but can not justify the extra cost of a marine berth or spending the time to find a swinging mooring at the right price.
3. All the advice I have received regarding headroom make me lean more towards not including it as an essential. Personally I think I could cope without it no problem but it would make the whole venture more appealing to my wife if there were more headroom. This has to be weighed against the fact that most of the time I’ll be single-handed. My wife likes flat seas and treating a boat as a mobile sunbathing platform.
4. Outboard rather than inboard engine.
5. For the interior (I’m willing to gradually evolve the interior of the boat to my own needs) Two berths max, I can’t ever see me needing more. The remainder of the space will have (in order of priority) a decent sized chart table with space for the electronic gizmos around it. Small cooker. Lots of storage lockers. Some form of heating. The heating initially can be as basic as a couple of paraffin lamps.
6. Mast head rig (roller preferred but could live with hanking on)
7. A strong heavy boat that can take a bit of sea. A boat that has fittings or that can take fitting that do not look like toys.


The sort of sailing I see myself doing.

Exploring the Orwell and Stour, also the Deben and Walton backwaters. In better weather inshore coastal cursing north and south of Harwich. Trips to Brightlingsea for a sleep aboard and return the next day. An ambitious trip would be planning and making a trip across the Thames estuary. That sort of thing.

I have written to the Orwell yacht club, located at the head of the Orwell and will be going for an “interview” in early January. It all sounds very formal but I told they are a good friendly bunch. If I’m able to join I’ll be able to keep a bilge keeler there on a half tide mooring at a reasonable cost.

I work in South East Asia aboard a seismic survey ship (on the technical side, I’m not a seaman) That’s where I’m writing from now. I do six weeks on and six weeks off, so when I’m home my time my own. Therefore I should be able to get plenty of weekday sailing in. I get back to the UK 30th DEC Just in time for the new year. Can’t wait its been a seven week trip this time and my third Christmas aboard in succession.

Thanks for all the useful input, I’m sure I’ll be back in touch.

Hope you had a good Christmas and wish you a happy new year.

Cheers

Colin



<hr width=100% size=1>No boat.

 

[cnh]

surely if you're a small boatowner, then headroom will be no problem ...

cnh

<hr width=100% size=1>