Small boat owners.

[Mirelle]

All perfectly practical

I cannot see any problems at all with your plans; all well thought through and realistic. You don't really need our advice, but it's fun trying to offer it!

Just to split a hair, let me tell you of a mistake I have made. In one of the Pardeys' books Larry Pardey says that a bigger galley is much more important than a chart table. He's right.

A bit of plywood that is at least 21" x 28" (24" x 30" much better) a sheet of clear plastic of the same size and four Bulldog clips (replace when rusty) does very well for a chart table and you can have it in the cockpit with you when things get navigationally interesting and you are single handing. A deluxe version of this, which I fitted on the advice of a very experienced singlehander, and use all the time, is to have the sheet of ply on runners under the companion hatch slide.

I am a bit of a heathen about electronic gizmos. A GPS is worth having, and so is an echo sounder, but I would not bother with any others. Luckily, these two are cheaper than the others.

Another one for the pot in the "what boat" stakes - have you thought about our local wooden centreboarder - a Kestrel? Some of them are well and truly past it, but others are fine; they are often for sale cheap, they often have inboards, some even have diesels, they sail nicely and are happy on a drying mooring.

<hr width=100% size=1>Que scais-je?

 

[bigmart]

Get yourself a copy of "The Magic of the Swatchways" Where your sailing it will seem like an out of date guidebook. I would disagree with you regarding the outboard engine. An inboard is much, much better. My earlier suggestion of an Eventide still holds true. Maurice Griffiths designed them for the East Coast Rivers. The long keel with bilge plates ensures they always dry out upright. they are heavy & solid in the water. A real confidence inspiring boat.
"Sailing Just for Fun" is another good read for the East Coast Sailor with a love of mud.

I am Biased of course.

Martin

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[Gunfleet]

Re: All perfectly practical

I once had a Kestrel. I think of it as an estuary boat. Why? It doesn't have a self draining cockpit. And it doesn't even have kneeling headroom, leave alone standing headroom. It is a good sailing boat though and you could get a decent example for our correspondent's price. I'm not sure how much it is for an inexperienced sailor. Wooden mast, no backstay? And if you sleep aboard it, there's a hell of a racket from water trickling underneath the hull. But it does go well to windward and for creek crawling the lifting plate gives it virtually no draft - 18 inches or so, from memory. Ah... memories....

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[FullCircle]

Re: All perfectly practical

Colin,
thanks for the additional biopic. As I have sailed your grounds for a good number of years, you are on the right track.
However, please consider:
Outboard: Try to avoid a two stroke if possible. The Evinrude 6 Twin I had on the Corribee would absolutely sink the juice and stink the place out. Recently I had a 4 stroke 4hp Yamaha on the Limbo which was economical and very torquey, quiet and not smelly. It needs to have a charging circuit which means 5hp plus. Also the outboard is usually transom mounted and offset, which cause an issue in a short high seaway like the Crouch in a wind over tide. The prop regularly and monotonously comes clear of the water, meaning loss of forward motion each time. My current boat has an ancient (but serviceable) Volvo Penta Saildrive, which is really just a 7.5HP 4 stroke outboard through the bottom of the boat. I would go for an inboard if possible, but check out the condition most carefully. After all a new Yanmar is over 3 grand(eek!), but a secondhand outboard can be had for a couple of hundred quid.
Equipment: You are my kind of fella with the budget. Try and go for a boat that needs cosmetics, but avoid major refurbs if poss. As a for instance replacing the berth cushion covers and headlining on my Jouet (4 berth) is 400 quid just for materials....(I am still working on that one). But my cooker came off this forum for a couple of beers (Thanks Chris).
Try to look at boats that have a good inventory, with lots of warps anchors fenders boat hooks, instruments, safety/first aid kit, flares spares etc.. Maybe someone giving up. The boat jumbles are OK for collecting kit but a bit hit and miss (Spinnaker Pole anyone?) and a visit to the Chandlers will soon mount up to 10 or even 20% of your entire budget.Lots of shiny things they have.
I am so enjoying this thread.... Tee Hee Hee...

Jim & Lynn


<hr width=100% size=1>Second Chance - First Love. I still need a 7m Luff Spinnaker & Pole for 22 footer!! Help!

 

[kds]

I do think you need to make one decision before you go any further.
Just how important is performance, to you ?
Most chubby bilge keelers with headroom will not sail close to the wind and will need to resort to engine. An outboard is an unsatisfactory solution in a chop ( although OK in large waves).
If this does not matter - you have a large choice.
If it matters to you - you are very limited.
My old Atalanta would sail to windward 'cos I kept her light and the outboard worked if the wind died.
BUT - it had NEARLY standing headroom. Not enough to stand and cook or use nav. table without bending your neck. After a couple of weeks I had a neck ache and a patch rubbed bald on the back of my head.
Avoid NEARLY headroom. It is better to have less, but be able to sit comfortably to cook.
Then, if you choose carefully, you can enjoy its performance.
Good hunting.

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[kds]

I do think you need to make one decision before you go any further.
Just how important is performance, to you ?
Most chubby bilge keelers with headroom will not sail close to the wind and will need to resort to engine. An outboard is an unsatisfactory solution in a chop ( although OK in large waves).
If this does not matter - you have a large choice.
If it matters to you - you are very limited.
My old Atalanta would sail to windward 'cos I kept her light and the outboard worked if the wind died.
BUT - it had NEARLY standing headroom. Not enough to stand and cook or use nav. table without bending your neck. After a couple of weeks I had a neck ache and a patch rubbed bald on the back of my head.
Avoid NEARLY headroom. It is better to have less, but be able to sit comfortably to cook.
Then, if you choose carefully, you can enjoy its performance.
Good hunting.

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[sea_hobbit]

If you want headroom - go for a caravan! If you want to actually sail in a boat of 22' don't go for headroom. As you say 95% of your time below you'll be sitting or lying so DO make sure you can sit up properly in her.
Good luck.

<hr width=100% size=1>SP
www.subart.net

 

[Gunfleet]

Re: All perfectly practical

Jim, I am not Colin but I know what you mean. In the Maldon chandlery they will sell you wooden spi pole fittings and the appropriate wooden pole for a very modest price. Then all you need is some varnish.
John

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[Guest]

My reply ....

I was not saying YOU are a Euroyottie ..... but actually aiming at general. There semms to be a train of thought amongst more-modern' boat owners that length and girth is needed to create headroom. Not true ..... many modern boats get h/room from having higher freeboard than older. That is where the problem comes in ..... older designs that tried to increase h/room often had Caravan like tops .....

But the original post is 24' etc....... agreed, but as many will agree - start looking at size a ....... settle and buy size a+ !! Why should he be limited and why shouldn't a little pointer be given to wider the field of view ??

OK some boats are more expensive than 'cheap' ....... what is cheap anyway ...... A nice eventide or Snapdragon 24 could fit the bill without being ugly and also being reasonably comfortable ....... and sea-kindly.

I do not knock anyones choice of boat, it all depends on what they want ...... sometimes a nudge in a direction is needed.

If you want a gastly cheap and chat boat ..... try Belsize in Soton, if you are willing to risk the odd duffer - but could find a good'un ... Nationwide Boat Sales ..... otherwise its a hunt through local rags, boatyards etc. etc.


<hr width=100% size=1>Nigel ...
Bilge Keelers get up further ! I came - cos they said was FREE Guinness !
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[l'escargot]

I would have thought 4' 8" in a Corribee was headroom for a Hobbit

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[kds]

perhaps he just has a very big head ?

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[ianwright]

Confused Yet?

Not to worry. I have no doubt that a boat that is about right for you will choose you sooner or later. It needn't be perfect for you. It's job is to teach you what you really want. Your second boat will suit you better. Try to find one you can keep by about your third, otherwise you may never find 'the one'.
IanW

<hr width=100% size=1>Vertue 203, Patience

 

[Mirelle]

Quite so!

"It is a truth universally recognised, that a yachtsman, in possession of a any sort of boat, must have the perfect boat, until the moment when he decides to sell her!"

<hr width=100% size=1>Que scais-je?

 

[Peppermint]

Re:Midway points

is to nearly have standing headroom. My 7.77m Compromis has standing headroom beneath both hatches for me, I'm 5ft 9". The rest of the boat is perfectly accessable with a slightly bowed head. She will punch above her weight upwind though.

A good cockpit cover that allows the main hatch to be left open works for some people. A previous boat, an E-Boat 22ft, had good sitting head room and a huge main hatch with spray hood. This did allow the best of both worlds though old seadogs disapprove of large openings.

All boats are a compromise. When you find the boat you want headroom shouldn't be a deal breaker. There's much more important stuff to consider.

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[kilkerr1]

Kingfisher, Kingfisher, Kingfisher. I've banged on about them often enough on the forums - shut your ears and go get a beer all the chaps who've put up with me! I bought a Kingfisher 20+ (22 foot) in July. Husband and I had pretty much exactly the same requirements as yourself: v. tight budget (we got her for £2750, more than we could afford really, ho hum); bilge keel (an 'anywhere' boat); sturdy and safe rather than sporty and sleek. A Kingfisher 20, Kotare, has <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.kyoa.co.uk/k20pictures.htm>been to the North Pole</A> believe it or not (crazy man...), and some have found their way to Australia. So no worries about their hardness then. I'd agree with most of the other posters that standing headroom in a boat this size is not a priority. With the hatch open we can both stand to pull up trousers, plus it's got a very cunning layout which includes 'proper' heads and hanging locker and 4-berths. Another thing I love about it is the outboard engine in an inboard 'well' - tilt the engine up, pull the cover across and the motor's all tucked away out of sight.

They're great little boats - many experienced sailors I've mentioned them to (tutors, sailing buddies) get a warm little gleam in their eye when i tell 'em about Santa Teresa. One guy told us about a K22 he'd sailed in. They became grounded on a beach somehow and due to tides, etc. it was decided that the only way to get the boat down back into the water was to roll her. Yes, roll her. Unstepped the mast and off they went. An inspection to all the bits revealed no damage whatsoever once the ol' lady was back in the water. I kinda like the fact I have a boat which you can roll down a beach and come out unscathed...

Anyway, have a look at the and <A target="_blank" HREF=http://kilkerr.members.easyspace.com/santateresa_pics.htm>my own website, which has become a bit of a shrine to our beloved boat...

Good luck, and let us know how you get on.

J


<hr width=100% size=1><A target="_blank" HREF=http://kilkerr.members.easyspace.com/santateresa_pics.htm>Santa Teresa and other t'ings</A>

 

[paulrossall]

I was in a similar position to you some 4 years ago. I had a Skipper 17 and wanted something bigger. I sail the area you intend to so shallow draft and bilge or lifting keel seemed to be logical. As SWMBO is a fair weather sailor and I have 3 teenage children I wanted a reliable inboard diesel engine and a reasonable amount of room. Different people went on about upwind sailing performance, but that did not seem to fit in with my shallow draft requirements, and I don't like bashing into the wind anyway, I allways turn the engine on. I did not really want the added complication of a lifting cente board once I had thought more about it.
Once you get over 50, unless you are super-fit, you are not as supple as you were and don't like bending much. In my case headroom was not negotiable, I wanted decent headroom but as my budget was £10K higher than yours I could achieve that. I was also prepared to compromise so that wife was happy with boat and felt safe on it. If you don't ensure that then it could give you a problem.
My thought process must have been similar to that of most people who buy a boat but the key point is you have to buy what is right for you in your circumstances, to suite you requirements.
One last point. I think a reliable engine is a high priority for weekend sailors so you can get back to your base when there is little wind. The cost of leaving boat in a marina and the logistical problem of transport around the estuaries can spoil a good weekend. You have to put up with that if the weather turns nasty, but I did not want lack of wind to upset my plans. Good luck.
Paul

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[Mirelle]

Good point

One expense that I have not incurred at all, since moving from 18ft LOA to 37ft LOA, is marina dues and taxi and train fares as a result of not being able to get back on Sunday night. It used to be a regular item. The saving probably pays for the big boat's paint! As Maurice Griffiths said, half a century ago, "A good sailing breeze to the ten tonner is a something gale to the little boat!" But I think there are two solutions - either an inboard diesel, or a good sailing boat and an outboard.

<hr width=100% size=1>Que scais-je?

 

[Stemar]

Now for my 2 penny’th!

I was in a similar position to you last year. Suddenly and unexpectedly, SWBO decided we could get a boat. I’m 50+ and short on experience as skipper. Limited budget, SWBO not a sailor and has back problems, deep water moorings too expensive – I’m sure the constraints will be familiar to many.

Our (almost) perfect boat turned out to be a Snapdragon 24. Here’s why, in no particular order.:

Overspecced masthead rig with roller headsail

Standing headroom for my SWMBO, almost for me (It’s about 5’ 9”).

A useable forecabin and separate heads. We anchor a lot so a bit of cat-swinging space help the sanity, especially on a cool evening

A reasonable galley and a proper dinette arrangement, with no need to climb over the table to get out in a hurry

Inboard diesel – it sips fuel (about 50hrs autonomy on a full tank) and pushes the boat along even in a chop when an outboard would struggle

Bilge keels – Not brilliant to windward, but with the inboard engine, we can always motorsail if needs be. BUT only 2’9” draught and she’ll dry out level.

The rudder’s mounted on a skeg, so it’s well protected, and the prop shaft is in its own little skeg, (I know that’s not the proper term, but I can’t remember it!) so that’s quite well protected too.

Self-draining cockpit.

She’s not really perfect, but with our budget of £5000 max, she was as close as we were likely to get. We’ve plans to take her across the channel next year and up the Rance to Dinard. Olny you know how much comfort you – or your good lady – are willing to sacrifice for race-winning performance and vice versa, but I’m convinced that for us, the loss of some performance on a beat was worth it to make sailing fun for my good lady!

By the way, now could be a good time to be looking. You’re not in a hurry to go sailing, and many of the boats for sale now will have been on the market for some time, so owners may be inclined to take an offer. Just make sure you know why they didn’t sell yet! On your budget there’s likely to be some “TLC” needed, and you may be able to get it done by the start of the season.

Good hunting!


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[tonywar]

Don't forget lying down is important as well. Especially if your intending to overnight regularly. Make sure you can stretch out in the births. I think having to sleep in the foetus is considered a form of torture. I sail a westerly 22, and I'm 6 ft tall, no I can't stand up straight in the cabin, but I can lye straight in the bunk, and sleep well because of it.

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[Ohdrat]

personally I think berth length is more important than standing head room..

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